Attack! Attack! Attack!

[Mr Phalanx]

I know people prefer to watch their boys repeatedly bang the door of opposition defence but there has to be someone who has figured how to do a Sean Dyche/Simeone with some level of success. Top half finish with the worst team in the league counts as one.

 

I achieved some with Armanford in Wales. Used low pressing, deep defensive line, and contain/defensive mentality. Thanks to the acquisition of the best goalie,defenders and Ball winner in the trenches of the Welsh leagues + a freak poacher who loved to move into the channels instead of maintaining a central presence. 

 

It's been tough to recreate it. I've tried different variations. It worked one time in Northern Ireland with Tobermore in a strictly youth academy challenge. Took them from 3rd division to 2nd before relegating them and resigning. 

From my observation,despite some success, it's just not a sustainable . Yes, it worked for me in some cases, but this was because I was playing in Wales and Northern Ireland + I had very a very good base (GK + DEFs + BWM) and a quality poacher in a very rigid 442. 

I tried this in the Spanish third tier, it was harder. They ate me raw. Although, I did well, but I conceded far more goals. I wasn't as successful as I was in Wales and N.Ireland. 

I enjoy watching quick transitions. But to trigger that, you have to win the ball in deep areas and launch it forwards to the speedy poacher. This sometimes seems impossible because defences are not compact and long shots pop up from nowhere. Even defenders with good positioning and tackling easily get bypassed.

Maybe defensive width needs to be added. Maybe the defensive side of the game needs more attention. I don't know. But I've definitely seen enough gegenpressing in the tactics section at Vibe to know that people have no other option than to attack. 

 

[Marc Vaughan]

My favored approach to defending in the game is to get positionally good defenders and play a high line, then play an off-side trap ... it seems to work fairly reliably if your players are good enough. I also use the 'Counter Attacking' style generally as that compliments that style of play rather well I find if you have fast wingers (I use AML/R as inside forwards and a single striker - ideally someone reasonably fast and tall - use him as the outlet to feed the IF's when you break).

[Mr Phalanx]

1 hour ago, Marc Vaughan said:

My favored approach to defending in the game is to get positionally good defenders and play a high line, then play an off-side trap ... it seems to work fairly reliably if your players are good enough. I also use the 'Counter Attacking' style generally as that compliments that style of play rather well I find if you have fast wingers (I use AML/R as inside forwards and a single striker - ideally someone reasonably fast and tall - use him as the outlet to feed the IF's when you break).

Yes. But that is still a high press. There are some games where you just want to absorb pressure with 9 outfield players and leave the striker with the last defender. Defending close to the box like Burnley. 

I do this a lot on the PC version. Much lower LOE, low DL, narrow width, 4-4-2.   It becomes very frustrating for the opposition because my low block attracts players towards my area and leaves plenty of space in behind for the PF(A) to exploit. 

Defending together and in deep areas. That is what seems impossible. Good positioning, aerials, tackling and strength may help. But in general, it doesn't seem to protect the keeper and goal all that much.  

Burnley frustrate teams. Yes, they have moments when their defensive tactics backfire, but compactness makes them hard to beat sometimes. They put bodies on the line, win the ball back in their area and launch it to Chris Wood. That's what I'm looking for. I don't want to defend high sometimes, I want to squeeze space in my area and play for clean sheets. 

 

 

[Marc Vaughan]

I'll have a play around with that style next week and see if I think there are any flaws with how it operates - what mentality do you use when trying it out of interest?

[Mr Phalanx]

16 hours ago, Marc Vaughan said:

I'll have a play around with that style next week and see if I think there are any flaws with how it operates - what mentality do you use when trying it out of interest?

Counter mentality.

Deep/Balanced defensive line

Sitback/Own Half

Long passing.

Commuted tackling

The instructions do not suggest a high press in any way. But while we sit deep. I prefer to be aggressive in my block. Just like Atletico 13/14.

 

[Englishhammer]

4 hours ago, Mr Phalanx said:

Commuted tackling

What do you mean by this? Or is it committed tackling? 

[Marc Vaughan]

3 hours ago, Englishhammer said:

What do you mean by this? Or is it committed tackling? 

Commuted tackling is when someone traveling to work really annoys you and you take them down ... I see it like a rugby tackle from behind, they probably didn't even know it was coming

[Englishhammer]

On 11/07/2021 at 13:41, Marc Vaughan said:

Commuted tackling is when someone traveling to work really annoys you and you take them down ... I see it like a rugby tackle from behind, they probably didn't even know it was coming

Perfectly understandable, especially in London 

[Hildor]

What I find interesting and at the same time unrealistic is how tactics with just one CB and a lot up front actually work so well and just not with big clubs, we've doing weekly rebuild saves with different teams on the discord channel and those kind of ultra attacking tactics seem to work so well, specially scoring over 100 per season, so I'd say attack is what seems to work best, even though I refuse to play like that

[Marc Vaughan]

13 hours ago, Hildor said:

What I find interesting and at the same time unrealistic is how tactics with just one CB and a lot up front actually work so well and just not with big clubs, we've doing weekly rebuild saves with different teams on the discord channel and those kind of ultra attacking tactics seem to work so well, specially scoring over 100 per season, so I'd say attack is what seems to work best, even though I refuse to play like that

If you are using any tactics which you believe are unrealistic and want to send me save games then I would be happy to tweak things to ensure that they're rubbish in future versions

(help me ... err ... cripple your club's performance? )

[Hildor]

10 hours ago, Marc Vaughan said:

If you are using any tactics which you believe are unrealistic and want to send me save games then I would be happy to tweak things to ensure that they're rubbish in future versions

(help me ... err ... cripple your club's performance? )

Well we've asked in the discord, let's see it people are willing to part with their tactics lol there's mixed feelings. In the meantime I'll leave you with some screenshots from our rebuilds events and results with said tactics:

 

[Mr Phalanx]

On 05/08/2021 at 09:31, Hildor said:

What I find interesting and at the same time unrealistic is how tactics with just one CB and a lot up front actually work so well and just not with big clubs, we've doing weekly rebuild saves with different teams on the discord channel and those kind of ultra attacking tactics seem to work so well, specially scoring over 100 per season, so I'd say attack is what seems to work best, even though I refuse to play like that

Attack is the way. It's the only way.  How do you play?

[Marc Vaughan]

6 hours ago, Mr Phalanx said:

Attack is the way. It's the only way.  How do you play?

Personally I play in defense in real-life so I tend to build teams around defense and be tight as heck at the back .... although I do score a fair few by and large once my team is where I want it.

[CSFC]

On 11/07/2021 at 07:09, Mr Phalanx said:

Counter mentality.

Deep/Balanced defensive line

Sitback/Own Half

Long passing.

Commuted tackling

The instructions do not suggest a high press in any way. But while we sit deep. I prefer to be aggressive in my block. Just like Atletico 13/14.

 

You dont want to be overagressive, but strong in defend as a team when opposition are in "danger" zone. Your instructions are solid, ill add a narrow style while it makes team more compact. Also high defensive line with sit back can also work great becouse you will leave less space for enemy to tiki-taka you through the middle (your defenders will be closer to the center line which means - closer to your midfielders)

 

Noone team really want to defend deep if it's possible cuz its leaves spaces for enemy to outcross you in final third. Atleti often plays high and agressive, but their main domain is compactness, strenght and agression which is in Simeone's blood since beginning.

Edited August 11, 2021 by CSFC

[Mr Phalanx]

2 hours ago, CSFC said:

You dont want to be overagressive, but strong in defend as a team when opposition are in "danger" zone. Your instructions are solid, ill add a narrow style while it makes team more compact. Also high defensive line with sit back can also work great becouse you will leave less space for enemy to tiki-taka you through the middle (your defenders will be closer to the center line which means - closer to your midfielders)

 

Noone team really want to defend deep if it's possible cuz its leaves spaces for enemy to outcross you in final third. Atleti often plays high and agressive, but their main domain is compactness, strenght and agression which is in Simeone's blood since beginning.

Compactness is key in defensive systems. I agree.  But have you  noticed that horizontal compactness is almost nonexistent, even with a narrow width and a contain mentality. The wide midfielders/wingers/defensive wingers  do not contribute to defending the half spaces.

A compact 442 should have the midfield four close to each other. It denies progression through the middle. But in FMM, the wide midfielders focus on defending the flanks, and when they are bypassed, they don't bother to support the fullback on the same flank. 

I'll explain better. 

When the opponents are approaching our penalty area, there are only 6 players trying to protect the goal, the 4 CBs and 2 CMs. The wide midfielders just sit there on the flanks watching the 6 players get ripped apart. 

In the PC version, the wide midfielders automatically tuck in to assist the CMs. Their positioning in the halfspaces ensures tightness which creates a block in front of the goalkeeper. 

This doest work in FMM. I've tried man marking on the Wide midfielders. But there isn't any difference. They just leave the half spaces open for opponents to walk through and shoot at goal. 

[CSFC]

11 minutes ago, Mr Phalanx said:

Compactness is key in defensive systems. I agree.  But have you  noticed that horizontal compactness is almost nonexistent, even with a narrow width and a contain mentality. The wide midfielders/wingers/defensive wingers  do not contribute to defending the half spaces.

A compact 442 should have the midfield four close to each other. It denies progression through the middle. But in FMM, the wide midfielders focus on defending the flanks, and when they are bypassed, they don't bother to support the fullback on the same flank. 

I'll explain better. 

When the opponents are approaching our penalty area, there are only 6 players trying to protect the goal, the 4 CBs and 2 CMs. The wide midfielders just sit there on the flanks watching the 6 players get ripped apart. 

In the PC version, the wide midfielders automatically tuck in to assist the CMs. Their positioning in the halfspaces ensures tightness which creates a block in front of the goalkeeper. 

This doest work in FMM. I've tried man marking on the Wide midfielders. But there isn't any difference. They just leave the half spaces open for opponents to walk through and shoot at goal. 

Not really tested the wingers and their roles yet, but I understand your problem. You may test defensive wingers, but their role in attack will look different as you know. Thats why invidual instructions for the players are surely most needed thing to upgrade.

This should impact game engine, so it's understandable it may take some time to add.

Edited August 11, 2021 by CSFC

[Mr Phalanx]

3 minutes ago, CSFC said:

Not really tested the wingers and their roles yet, but I understand your problem. You may test defensive wingers, but their role in attack will look different as you know. Thats why invidual instructions for the players are surely most needed thing to upgrade.

Yes. . Player instructions are needed. 

 

For defensive wingers, they push higher and even wider without the ball, leaving my CMs alone in the middle. I'd say defensive wingers are useful for teams that  press high, and they are not suitable for teams that want to keep their 2 banks of four tight and solid

[StephenCronin]

On 06/08/2021 at 08:19, Marc Vaughan said:

If you are using any tactics which you believe are unrealistic and want to send me save games then I would be happy to tweak things to ensure that they're rubbish in future versions

(help me ... err ... cripple your club's performance? )

@Marc Vaughan - One of the screenshots shared above by @Hildor is from my tactic. I've written it up on Vibe if you're interested: https://fmmvibe.com/forums/topic/46725-the-tt-blaster-an-all-out-attack-tactical-system/

I think it's unrealistic in terms of no one being brave enough to try something like that in real life. But it's not quite like the old days where you could come up with a tactic that totally broke reality. 

My tactic only works when you have a much better team than the opponent - when you do, you will overpower them and score a lot of goals (though occasionally they will spank you). If you have a pretty good team you'll get a lot of 5-4's which could go either way. If you have an average team, you're going to lose most games 6-0! 

The Crystal Palace screenshots above are mine. As you can see, I scored 103 goals in the league, but also shipped 80! 😄 After a couple of seasons building the squad with great players, I'd be able to dominate the league (as I could with any tactic) and score a lot more goals and concede a lot less - but by the end of season 1 with Palace my team is merely good and still within the 5-4 range.

There are other things you have to do to make it work. You need fast defenders with good positioning, given there's only one at the back. It doesn't work against some tactics so you have to dial things back a little (ie move from Overloading to Balanced). etc etc. It's definitely not plug and play.

Actually I think that what's unrealistic isn't so much the tactic itself, but the fact that I can build a world class team at any club over a few years. I guess your 'average' user probably wouldn't be able to do that as easily as some of us power users can. 

Anyway I included all of that and more in the write up on Vibe if you're interested. I also wondered what would happen if a real life team went with one at the back against much weaker opponents, using PSG as the example. How many weak teams would actually attack them and take advantage of one at the back, rather than defend for their lives? Perhaps I'm trying to talk myself into this being realistic to justify it, but I would love to see someone try it in real life. 😄