3 CB 2 WB tactic, can I have some improvement suggestions?

[epicrecruit]

My first formation with this club was a downloaded 4-1dmc-2mc-2w-1 tactic (positive, shorter passing, extremely high tempo, work ball into box, counter + counter-press, very high lines, extremely urgent pressing). It was not a good fit:
-My 2 best players, the wingers, barely featured in Key Highlights. I had pictured the stereotypical strong target man holding up the ball for the 2 attacking wingers and the CM, this rarely happened despite having the right players.
-The wingers and fullbacks didn't work together well. The FB would push up and overlap, and be ignored by the winger who'd try to cross directly. I felt like I was wasting manpower on the wings.
-Very few quality chances. It felt like most goals were flukes. I would never win by more than 1 goal
+OK defense
+The DMC, despite being a mediocre player with good passing, was my PoM a record amount of time. A regular highlight was that one of the two CMs would get pressured into passing backwards to him, and he'd spray a fantastic Pirlo-like long ball to an unmarked fullback or winger (usually FB) ready to cross. It was a beautiful sight.

After a few months I switched to a downloaded 4-4-2 (attacking, slightly more direct, much higher tempo, pass into space, work ball into box, counter + counter-press, very high lines, extremely urgent pressing). Things got a lot better for me:
+Turned my team into a goal machine. Having 2 strikers turned half-chances into real chances.
-Many more goals conceded. The opposition would constantly outnumber us when they countered.
-Still felt like the wide players were wasted bodies as I saw very little teamwork on the wings

I thought I would tweak the 4-4-2 into a 3cb-2wb-1dmc-2mc-2st to address its weaknesses:
*By only using 2 WBs to provide the width, I freed up 2 player slots
*1 extra player went into having a 3rd CB to be more solid at the back
*1 extra player became DMC to spray the long through balls to the wingbacks when the 2 MCs couldn't penetrate, like in my 1st tactic

I'd like this to be my primary tactic going forward. Things are going OK at the moment, but I'd like to hear your recommendations.

1) Are the midfield and forward roles OK for what I'm trying to do?

2) With the DMC being there, do you think 3 CBs is overkill? If so, what should I use instead? It feels like AMC is the right choice. But I've never tried a tactic with an AMC who wasn't invisible all match, whether a perfect Enganche, Shadow Striker, AM Support...they rarely feature in the match highlights.

3) One thing I'd like to try to fix...when their lone forward is countering, my 3 CBs all run backwards and don't engage him until he's in the final 3rd, despite having a very high line with a Stopper. I'm OK with this behavior when the opposing team is countering in numbers, but not when it's 3v1. I was expecting the Stopper to go for him ASAP. Anything I can do about this?

 

Edited October 20, 2020 by epicrecruit
text wasnt posted, same image was there 3 times

[Experienced Defender]

First off, do not use offside trap when your CBs are on different duties. 

Secondly, the tactic looks like a complete mess, so it's next to impossible to figure out what you are looking to achieve in terms of the playing style. Can you describe in short what style of football do you want to play and why? 

10 hours ago, epicrecruit said:

Are the midfield and forward roles OK for what I'm trying to do?

That's the key question I myself would love to know the answer to - what exactly are you trying to do? 

Speaking solely about MF roles, carrilero and mezzala would make a lot more sense if they swapped the sides, so that the CAR provides cover for the attacking WB on the right. 

The forward role partnership might make sense only if you want to play simple direct counter-attacking football, but the problem is that the rest of your tactic completely goes against such style of play. 

[Flußkrebs]

12 hours ago, epicrecruit said:

After a few months I switched to a downloaded 4-4-2 (attacking, slightly more direct, much higher tempo, pass into space, work ball into box, counter + counter-press, very high lines, extremely urgent pressing). Things got a lot better for me:
+Turned my team into a goal machine. Having 2 strikers turned half-chances into real chances.
-Many more goals conceded. The opposition would constantly outnumber us when they countered.
-Still felt like the wide players were wasted bodies as I saw very little teamwork on the wings

Some simple changes to make would be to take off work ball into box and pass into space and use them only as tweaks depending on opposition. I would also take off the waste time instruction (no idea why that is on, presumably a hangover from the plug 'n' play?). Also not convinced you need much higher tempo with the Attacking mentality, so I'd switch that to standard or maybe higher. Assuming hat you want to continue playing the same "style" of football as the downloaded 442 (very aggressive and quite direct attacking football) that is. 

I would also personally tone down the pressing a little (HLoE, HLoD, More Urgent always seems to be aggressive enough for me if I'm going Gegen-y). Your mileage may vary.

I agree with @Experienced Defender on both swapping the Car and Mez roles (or I suppose the wingback duties instead), and that you should maybe think about changing the striker duties a little. 

But I'd take it back to basics. You had a very aggressive 442 which scored lots of goals, but also conceded a lot. You were also worried that it still wasn't making the most of your widemen. To shore up your defense, you inserted a DM and an extra centre-back. Assuming you're using similar/the same Team instructions, then why didn't you just alter those on your old tactic to shore up the defense? Toning down the pressing a little perhaps, shifting some roles and duties, no reason why the 442 couldn't be a bit more balanced. Especially if the wingers weren't getting involved, that sounds like the tactic had issues which could be resolved. But we'd have to see that tactic to make changes, and if it was a download then it can be v difficult to advise what to change as they usually have a ton of PIs, TIs etc which make it difficult to see under the hood. 

How are the results with the new tactic compared to the old one? I think that is important to know to give advice- if the switch of formation has worked defensively then we might be looking at the wrong things. 

 

[epicrecruit]

9 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

...

Thanks, I'll do the tweaks you suggested.

Desired style of football: counter-attacking. My ideal goal is the packed defense stopping an attack, sending the ball long towards ST1, who either does a throughball to ST2 to put him through on goal, or if he can't do that, then stall until the counter cavalry (the two MCs and WBs) are there to help. If the opposition managed to regroup /  stopped the counter, then pass it around their box until there's an opening (this is usually where my DMC shines, passing long to an unmarked WB).

 

 

6 hours ago, Flußkrebs said:

...

Tweaking the 4-4-2: the new formation is already as you suggest: I copied the 4-4-2 using Save/Load Slot, then did my tweaks. The 4-4-2 in question is "Cadoni 442", I posted a screenshot below.

Time wasting: I set it to Sometimes for condition reasons. Since I have poor squad depth, my best 11 need to play as often as possible, so the idea is that by artificially shortening the match through time-wasting, they are less tired. I set it to max as soon as I'm up by 2 goals.

Results: the results of the new tactic are much worse offensively, but I'm also in a higher division now, so it's the stronger opposition. I'd need to switch back to the 4-4-2 for a few matches to see how it compares. Defense-wise, the opposition goals have mainly been from set pieces and long shots, so I'm pretty happy there. I'm still conceding, but not as much as before. It's the midfielders and strikers struggling the most.

 

 

 

[Flußkrebs]

3 minutes ago, epicrecruit said:

Desired style of football: counter-attacking. My ideal goal is the packed defense stopping an attack, sending the ball long towards ST1, who either does a throughball to ST2 to put him through on goal, or if he can't do that, then stall until the counter cavalry (the two MCs and WBs) are there to help. If the opposition managed to regroup /  stopped the counter, then pass it around their box until there's an opening (this is usually where my DMC shines, passing long to an unmarked WB).

See, this is where your team instructions (i suppose, Cadoni's team instructions adapted somewhat) don't match up with what you're asking. Mostly the LoE, LoD, Tempo, Pressing etc aren't suited to a counterattacking style of play. 

Positive or Balanced is what I'd usually go with on a counterattacking tactic as well, instead of attacking. But think it through- you're asking your players to sit in an extremely high block, all of your players except the centre backs and anchor man to press extremely aggressively. Sure, when they win the ball back they will counter, but this isn't a counter attacking style of play. I think you could get away with calling a Higher Defensive line, Standard Line of Engagement, more urgent pressing system potentially counterattacking.

7 minutes ago, epicrecruit said:

Tweaking the 4-4-2: the new formation is already as you suggest: I copied the 4-4-2 using Save/Load Slot, then did my tweaks. The 4-4-2 in question is "Cadoni 442", I posted a screenshot below.

Fine- I'd raise doubts that it is appropriate to use the same team instructions for such a structurally different tactic (your new 532). For example, overlap left- in the 442 this makes sense as the IW drifts in and the WB loops round him. On your new tactic who is supposed to be holding the ball up for the overlap for who exactly? Maybe you can keep the core style the same, cut some of the other instructions and reassess. And by core style I mean stuff like LoE, LoD, tempo, pressing, passing etc. Which is direct and aggressive and attacking your case. 

11 minutes ago, epicrecruit said:

Time wasting: I set it to Sometimes for condition reasons. Since I have poor squad depth, my best 11 need to play as often as possible, so the idea is that by artificially shortening the match through time-wasting, they are less tired. I set it to max as soon as I'm up by 2 goals.

I have no idea if this works but it sounds interesting! So go ahead if you are happy with it. 

 

13 minutes ago, epicrecruit said:

Results: the results of the new tactic are much worse offensively, but I'm also in a higher division now, so it's the stronger opposition. I'd need to switch back to the 4-4-2 for a few matches to see how it compares. Defense-wise, the opposition goals have mainly been from set pieces and long shots, so I'm pretty happy there. I'm still conceding, but not as much as before. It's the midfielders and strikers struggling the most.

The set up of roles and duties on this tactic is definitely nicer than on your tactic (although it is still very aggressive/unbalanced which is normal for plug n play).

I like the left hand side and the striker duties, and the centre back pair/goalkeeper. I don't like the right hand side or centre of midfield. I assume you are looking for advice on the new tactic first and foremost and I think there has been a little of that in this thread- although I think you need to decide whether you want to keep the Gegenpress style or really switch to playing on the counter (which would require big changes to the TIs in my opinion).

But, if you do want to adapt the 442 to make it a little more solid, whilst still playing the attacking/aggressive style, I'd set it up something like below. This is assuming you want to a) try and incorporate a 'pirlo style passer' which you seem to be keen on. Also that you have a suitable left winger, and right attacking wing back. Otherwise I would possibly switch around the right hand side roles and make the full back the supporter and the winger in front more aggressive. I don't know your personnel so there would definitely be tweaks. 

          PF-s AF-a

IW-a CM-s DLP-d W-s (or WM-s)

FB-s BPD-d CD-d WB-a

             SK-d

And I would just tone down some of the more manic instructions, like lowering the LoE, LoD to higher, pressing down to urgent, tempo down to standard or high. probably turn off prevent short GK distribution to. Plus I mentioned about some of the others above. 

You said (with the new tactic) you are conceding from set pieces. It might be worth checking how many fouls you are making (especially in dangerous areas). You have get stuck in on, combined with super aggressive pressing. That probably isn't helping. I would turn it off, but maybe you don't think that is a problem. 

I will leave other to advise on the new tactic beyond what I mentioned earlier as I also can struggle to get 3atb systems firing on all cylinders in attack. But my main advice would be that the new system you have devised is very different to the old one in both the attacking and defensive phases of play (i.e. who is attacking, how, and where, and how the players defend in transition and in a block), and so the team instructions will probably not carry over perfectly. 

 

[epicrecruit]

3 minutes ago, Flußkrebs said:

...

 

Thanks for the input. I'll try your 4-4-2 for a couple of months, this is part of the fun!

tbh I don't think the "Pirlo pass" will ever work with just 2 CMs and no DMC to pass back to. I had another 4-4-2 in my previous team with a decent DLP, and in my experience when not countering, the 2 CMs end up on the same horizontal line, constantly pressured and never able to face forward to do a good pass. Maybe with a great dribbler it would work. With the DMC, I see them get pressured, pass back to the unmarked and forward-facing DMC, and boom! A superb long offensive forward pass. Even now in my new formation, it's a regular key highlight.

I already made all the suggestions you guys gave me, and I just removed Get Stuck In too. I'll give this a few games, then try your 4-4-2.

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, epicrecruit said:

Desired style of football: counter-attacking

If so, then do not play with a higher (let alone much higher) line of engagement in the first place. And do not use the Prevent short GKD TI. And do not use extremely urgent pressing (especially under a high team mentality). And do not use the Work ball into box TI. Time-wasting also makes little (if any) sense as well as wide attacking width.

Because for a counter-attacking style of football - as with any defensive football style - the first thing you need to make sure is that you are solid and compact when defending. Invite the opposition onto you and only then be a bit more aggressive in order to win the ball when they are out of shape before you quickly hit them on the break. What your current tactic is doing is totally different from this. 

Both the 532 and (especially) 442 are good formations for a counter-attacking style, but the tactic(s) you set up within these formations is/are entirely wrong.