Non Mollare Mai - Relentless Total Football

[thev_666]

@OJAny update since then? Have been using your tactic and its working quite well. But I do struggle do break down teams sometimes and def dont see myself hitting 100+ goals like you mentioned. But the defending, passing and moves in general are amazing. You had mentioned a new strikerless variation without the false nine. Would love to know if you're using an even more evolved version now.   

[OJ]

Hi all and happy new year!

Been away for a long time, about 2 years, as just been busy with life stuff, let's say, and consequently haven't had much time for FM either. What I have been playing has been still on FM21 (skipped 22) as wanted to do a real long term Arsenal save, surpassing Wenger's time at the club if possible. Haven't been able to do that due to lack of time, think I'm currently on about 11 seasons only, and I suppose will switch to FM23 soon.

However, for the last few seasons in-game (since spring/summer IRL) I've been cooking on a new tactic, and will share it in detail within the next week or so I think. I'm currently travelling still for Xmas but once I'm back home in the next few days will try to take the time to write everything out ASAP. So disclaimer, this tactic hasn't been tested on the newest game, however fundamentally there's no reason why it shouldn't work in FM23 similarly to how it performs for me on FM21.

As I don't have access to the game now can't share details, but just wanted to give a heads-up and also write this post now to push myself to share it ASAP, as this tactic is one I like the most from my past creations of the past I don't even remember how many years.

As always, it's a 433 but for me, each distinct version of a tactic i create has some inspiration behind it, so for now I will just share that. Since I was a kid growing up I've loved Bruce Lee and his Kung Fu movies, and for this tactic the inspiration is Bruce Lee's explanation of his fighting philosophy, explained by him in this clip:

So, the tactic is named Flow Like Water, and it's basically my attempt at applying Bruce's philosophy on the football pitch in FM, and as you might guess the name of the game is max fluidity & adaptation on the pitch with minimal changes inside/in-between matches needed, but rather have the starting tactic so fluid no matter what formation/team/tactics we face we can just, essentially, flow through them.

In the meantime, would also love to hear from anyone who might have still been using any of my older stuff as part of their tactics, and if yes, how it has been going.

 

Edited January 1, 2023 by OJ

[Sarriball14]

Hi! I’ve decided to give your original tactic a go in fm23, playing some lovely football but being carved open to easily. In the new version you can’t set the team instruction for tighter marking, would you add mark tighter to each player instead on the player instructions? 

[OJ]

1 hour ago, Sarriball14 said:

Hi! I’ve decided to give your original tactic a go in fm23, playing some lovely football but being carved open to easily. In the new version you can’t set the team instruction for tighter marking, would you add mark tighter to each player instead on the player instructions? 

Ah good to know. The tight marking team instruction for me has always been something I'm not wedded to, just that in general in the older version in general it made the defending overall better.

Yes, in this case I'd probably just tight mark some key players; striker in a 1 ST formation, then playmakers and the ball playing defender, if the opponent is using one.

[Sarriball14]

1 hour ago, OJ said:

Ah good to know. The tight marking team instruction for me has always been something I'm not wedded to, just that in general in the older version in general it made the defending overall better.

Yes, in this case I'd probably just tight mark some key players; striker in a 1 ST formation, then playmakers and the ball playing defender, if the opponent is using one.

Player instructions or opposition instructions?

[OJ]

1 hour ago, Sarriball14 said:

Player instructions or opposition instructions?

I'd probably start with just oppo instructions, but I use player instructions myself as well currently from time to time if I feel the threat is considerable/if I feel like the opposing team is having too much possession. So have your striker man mark the BPD, then let's say your 2 MC's marking their respective counterparts if for example they have a good playmaker and a good Mezzala (put your MC right side marking their MC left side, not the player in case they change positions/sub, and your MC left side marking their MC right side).

Or if they try to build up  a lot through their wingbacks/fullbacks, I might put my wingers marking them via player instructions, though again mark the position not the actual player for if any changes occur on their side.

[OJ]

So, time for the tactics post. I'll try to make this as concise as possible, but if you haven't read this thread before, in the first page on my original post I talk a bit more about how I see things and the logic I use to build my tactics. With that said, let's dive in.

As I posted above, the inspiration for this tactic is Bruce Lee and his words about fighting. The vid is in the post above, but let me quote:

 

"Empty your mind; be formless, shapeless, like water

You put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle. You put it into a tea cup, it becomes the tea cup

Water can flow, or it can crash. Be water, my friend"

 

Hence it's named Flow Like Water, and the idea with the tactic is to be as fluid and shapeless as possible; to flow and crash through teams.

To achieve this, everybody is on Support duty except one of the CM's, and we're not using any Playmaker roles, to remove any predictability from our game and to make everyone on the pitch equal in the sense that when we play the pass it should go to the best option, not force it through certain players under any situation. This includes not using Ballplaying Defenders. The other key aspect is that we have everyone bar the centrebacks and the DM on Roaming either already via the player role (IWBs), or then added via Player Instruction (PI), which is the front five.

The tactic is a 4-3-3 just with the fullbacks already pushed up already to wingbacks, but in possession it will give you a 2-3-5 shape with the Inverted Wingbacks pushing on either side of the DM. I love the double IWBs because they allow your deep build-up to be virtually un-pressable where your goalie/centrebacks always have easy options to progress. What they allow further up the pitch as well is for the CM's to be high up infront of the D-line on both channels so they can play as Attacking Midfielders / free 8's, basically. The IWBs tucked in with the DM also offer a great base for ball rotation in and around the box, and defensive cover. Overall with this setup, the players have constant passing triangles and options available to them, and even though the tempo is slightly lower, often the play is quite quick with a lot of one/two touch football because of the triangles from our positioning and the players adjusting and finding space to offer passing options.

The mentality is set to Positive for beginning of the matches, but I oscillate between that and Balanced within matches.

Everything else is pretty self-explanatory for a possession tactic, but I'll just mention that for me the underlap instructions are key because when we go deep and wide, I want to come back in looking for cutbacks, or then just to rotate it back inside and move to the other side, as opposed to crosses, and the underlaps on both sides are key to get a lot more of them.

For individual player instructions, I've added basically nothing except as mentioned Roaming, and then Get Further Fwd for many of them since we're playing on Support duties. So like this:

GK: nothing

CBs: Nothing

IWBs: nothing

DM: Hold position

CMs: Get further fwd, Roam from position

IWs: Get further fwd, Roam from position, cross less ( I don't like crosses)

DLF: Roam from position

Nothing else because I have players heavy on traits anyway.

 

The last few seasons I've been tinkering and optimising, so for went from Inside Fwds to Inverted Wingers, earlier I had double Inside Fwds, but for me the IFs try to go on the outside and behind of the fullbacks when they're the widest man on the ball, and just go for a cross, whereas the IW's cut inside infront of the defender/D-line more, which I prefer. As I mention in my original post (and in the title of the thread), I want complete control of matches and just to be a relentless machine, but not toothless. So scoring and attacking plenty. The goal is on average 3 goals per game, and in the league we're pretty much exactly averaging that. Also stats-wise in the league, we are on top of pretty much every category. Below as well the goals/assists in the squad, it's very evenly divided, as I want and expect. Pedri has 7 pens within the 14 he has, so our top scorer  excluding pens thus far is one of my CMs, Vadivelou.

 

I went through last few months' matches or so to find examples with goals so you'll see how this plays out in game below (as mentioned I'm still on FM21 but no reason this tactic doesn't work inFM23), but one key thing I would add is about team building. For me the key is Intelligence, and like Wenger I love my playmakers.  Again, in the first post of the thread I explain a bit more about my type of players etc, but my squad building and lineup can be summed up like this: 2 central defenders and 8 playmakers. So the lowest attributes I have for Vision and Passing for example, bar centrebacks, is 16/17 including the wingbacks, all of whom I've bought as attacking midfielders and converted them to IWBs. That along with high high Off the ball, Anticipation and Decisions are the cornerstones for a player that I play. Then depending on the role of course other required attributes, but basically most my guys are playmakers, just not getting played in a playmaker role. I'm a control freak and for me no-one is better at keeping control than a playmaker, hence filling the team with them like there's no tomorrow.

For many of the clips I started a bit further back so before the goal you'll see maybe a failed attack first, or showing our pressing first and how we win the ball, to give more of an idea of how the tactic plays out.

This first one is possibly my favourite goal of this season, and it perfectly captures the idea of the tactic, where we just flow and crash through our opponent:

This second one is a great example as well of a goal encapsulating our philosophy, past a world class Klopp Gegenpress side that are trying to press and stop our build-up, but it's in vain:

From another Liverpool match, showing all goals and how we play around their press:

The rest without explanations, except for the first one just to mention that yes we had a lot of space on the wings cause City were down to 10 men and played without wingers then just packing the middle, but it's an absolute beauty where again they just can't touch us:

 

 

 

 

I'll leave it here for now, but let me know if you have any questions or comments, and thanks for reading!

[mikcheck]

@OJthanks for sharing this.

Can I ask you why do you play wide with a possession system and already with a positive mentality? Is it because of the underlap instruction?

Also could you please share the traits you said your players have and if do you think their detrimental to your playing styl?

I'd also like to know your average ball possession please.

Thanks!

[OJ]

6 hours ago, mikcheck said:

@OJthanks for sharing this.

Can I ask you why do you play wide with a possession system and already with a positive mentality? Is it because of the underlap instruction?

Also could you please share the traits you said your players have and if do you think their detrimental to your playing styl?

I'd also like to know your average ball possession please.

Thanks!

Hey,

You sure can. Wide width is something top level possession teams often use IRL, because many teams against a top level possession side will play conservative and defend deep and narrow. So where you'll have any amount of space is in the wide areas. So what you'll see for example Pep and Arteta for Arsenal do is have the wide guys often hugging the touch line (Ie wide width) when they're in possession in their own half, and progressively as they move up the field the wide guys will start condensing the pitch and moving inside (Saka and Martinelli for example play IRL pretty much exactly like Inverted Wingers, ie start wide and then dribble/move inside as Arsenal are getting closer to the box). So it's only the starting point, really, because the wide guys will most of the time look to move infield once play progresses upfield.

So the reason for the width is essentially to force these teams sitting deep and narrow make a choice; either come meet City, Arsenal etc out wide and hopefully start leaving gaps to exploit (especially to open space in the channels for your number 8s), or then allow max time on the ball out wide to start making something happen regardless.

We're the number 1 team in the world in game so a lot of the time we face teams looking to defend deep and narrow against us.

You can play narrower (and narrow), as well, but at times especially it's useful to try to stretch the pitch to offer maximum possibility for gaps and space in the channels, by making use of the full width of the pitch.

So it doesn't really have anything to do with the underlaps instructions, as these are two separate things. Width is about positioning of your team, whereas underlap instructions are about what kind of decisions you want your players to take when they're in possession in the wide areas, regardless of the width you are using.

Same with the Mentality; mentality is essentially about the level of risk-taking and directness you want in your game, and again nothing to do with the width of your team directly.

If you watch this goal I posted above, it's a good example. Look at my wide guys the moment my left centreback (Bostanci) gets the ball and starts the attack leading to the goal, at about 14secs in, they're close to the touch line, and would be hugging them if we had been a little deeper in possession. But regardless, once we start progressing they start moving inside, and Gilberto Antonio, my right IW in the end provides the assist for the goal from inside the box. As you can see by the time we're close to scoring and once we do, all our players are inside. So as said, the width is mainly just a starting position, so to say:

Does that clarify?

As for the player traits, 3/4 of my CMs have try killer balls often and get fwd often, for example, same for many of the wide guys.

We average at the moment 62%, which is excellent considering about 15 of the teams in the league, I guess insipired by our success, try to play possession football, so even when we face them and they play defensive, they try to still keep the ball, esp with still going for build-ups. Only about 3 gegenpress coaches and only 2 counter/defensive coaches in the league haha.

Edited January 8, 2023 by OJ

[OJ]

To add to what I said above about Pep and the width, for example, below's a great clip of my all time favourite, Thierry Henry, explaining this exact thing, and also how he got in trouble with Pep for for not keeping the width during build-up.

In the beginning he doesn't spell the wide width out, but as you see in the beginning he shows how up until you get to the final third, the wide guys are supposed to stay wide, as said to especially open space for Xavi/Iniesta in the inside channels, and you only have freedom of movement (inside), once you're in the final third.

At the end he shows this on the tactics board, you see the wide guys are positioned hugging the line when Barca were in possession deeper (mentions Villa, after Titi he played the same role, had the same instructions to keep width).

 

Edited January 8, 2023 by OJ

[Mst82]

This has changed my life, and saved my season - very much appreciated, great tactic!

[OJ]

4 hours ago, Mst82 said:

This has changed my life, and saved my season - very much appreciated, great tactic!

Thanks, that's great to hear

I've been tinkering around a bit to create a slightly alternated version. It's based off of a match where the opponent played a narrow 4231 and used their wingers to man-mark my inverted wingbacks, which disrupted our build-up enough for my taste to add some variables.

When playing any kind of possession system, your build-up is the most important thing and where one should spend the most time thinking/perfecting, because without it you won't achieve the desired goals, which is control (which then leads to wins as long as your attack isn't toothless).

I'll write it out asap, and open up a bit more my thought process along the way on how I approach certain scenarios/types of matches.

[mikcheck]

Thanks a lot for the amazing reply @OJ

Its makes sense for you to play wide then. Being one of the top teams in the game, I'm sure most of the teams park the bus against you.

[Maxim26]

В 07.01.2023 в 23:54, OJ сказал:

So, time for the tactics post. I'll try to make this as concise as possible, but if you haven't read this thread before, in the first page on my original post I talk a bit more about how I see things and the logic I use to build my tactics. With that said, let's dive in.

As I posted above, the inspiration for this tactic is Bruce Lee and his words about fighting. The vid is in the post above, but let me quote:

 

"Empty your mind; be formless, shapeless, like water

You put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle. You put it into a tea cup, it becomes the tea cup

Water can flow, or it can crash. Be water, my friend"

 

Hence it's named Flow Like Water, and the idea with the tactic is to be as fluid and shapeless as possible; to flow and crash through teams.

To achieve this, everybody is on Support duty except one of the CM's, and we're not using any Playmaker roles, to remove any predictability from our game and to make everyone on the pitch equal in the sense that when we play the pass it should go to the best option, not force it through certain players under any situation. This includes not using Ballplaying Defenders. The other key aspect is that we have everyone bar the centrebacks and the DM on Roaming either already via the player role (IWBs), or then added via Player Instruction (PI), which is the front five.

The tactic is a 4-3-3 just with the fullbacks already pushed up already to wingbacks, but in possession it will give you a 2-3-5 shape with the Inverted Wingbacks pushing on either side of the DM. I love the double IWBs because they allow your deep build-up to be virtually un-pressable where your goalie/centrebacks always have easy options to progress. What they allow further up the pitch as well is for the CM's to be high up infront of the D-line on both channels so they can play as Attacking Midfielders / free 8's, basically. The IWBs tucked in with the DM also offer a great base for ball rotation in and around the box, and defensive cover. Overall with this setup, the players have constant passing triangles and options available to them, and even though the tempo is slightly lower, often the play is quite quick with a lot of one/two touch football because of the triangles from our positioning and the players adjusting and finding space to offer passing options.

The mentality is set to Positive for beginning of the matches, but I oscillate between that and Balanced within matches.

Everything else is pretty self-explanatory for a possession tactic, but I'll just mention that for me the underlap instructions are key because when we go deep and wide, I want to come back in looking for cutbacks, or then just to rotate it back inside and move to the other side, as opposed to crosses, and the underlaps on both sides are key to get a lot more of them.

For individual player instructions, I've added basically nothing except as mentioned Roaming, and then Get Further Fwd for many of them since we're playing on Support duties. So like this:

GK: nothing

CBs: Nothing

IWBs: nothing

DM: Hold position

CMs: Get further fwd, Roam from position

IWs: Get further fwd, Roam from position, cross less ( I don't like crosses)

DLF: Roam from position

Nothing else because I have players heavy on traits anyway.

 

The last few seasons I've been tinkering and optimising, so for went from Inside Fwds to Inverted Wingers, earlier I had double Inside Fwds, but for me the IFs try to go on the outside and behind of the fullbacks when they're the widest man on the ball, and just go for a cross, whereas the IW's cut inside infront of the defender/D-line more, which I prefer. As I mention in my original post (and in the title of the thread), I want complete control of matches and just to be a relentless machine, but not toothless. So scoring and attacking plenty. The goal is on average 3 goals per game, and in the league we're pretty much exactly averaging that. Also stats-wise in the league, we are on top of pretty much every category. Below as well the goals/assists in the squad, it's very evenly divided, as I want and expect. Pedri has 7 pens within the 14 he has, so our top scorer  excluding pens thus far is one of my CMs, Vadivelou.

 

I went through last few months' matches or so to find examples with goals so you'll see how this plays out in game below (as mentioned I'm still on FM21 but no reason this tactic doesn't work inFM23), but one key thing I would add is about team building. For me the key is Intelligence, and like Wenger I love my playmakers.  Again, in the first post of the thread I explain a bit more about my type of players etc, but my squad building and lineup can be summed up like this: 2 central defenders and 8 playmakers. So the lowest attributes I have for Vision and Passing for example, bar centrebacks, is 16/17 including the wingbacks, all of whom I've bought as attacking midfielders and converted them to IWBs. That along with high high Off the ball, Anticipation and Decisions are the cornerstones for a player that I play. Then depending on the role of course other required attributes, but basically most my guys are playmakers, just not getting played in a playmaker role. I'm a control freak and for me no-one is better at keeping control than a playmaker, hence filling the team with them like there's no tomorrow.

For many of the clips I started a bit further back so before the goal you'll see maybe a failed attack first, or showing our pressing first and how we win the ball, to give more of an idea of how the tactic plays out.

This first one is possibly my favourite goal of this season, and it perfectly captures the idea of the tactic, where we just flow and crash through our opponent:

This second one is a great example as well of a goal encapsulating our philosophy, past a world class Klopp Gegenpress side that are trying to press and stop our build-up, but it's in vain:

From another Liverpool match, showing all goals and how we play around their press:

The rest without explanations, except for the first one just to mention that yes we had a lot of space on the wings cause City were down to 10 men and played without wingers then just packing the middle, but it's an absolute beauty where again they just can't touch us:

 

 

 

 

I'll leave it here for now, but let me know if you have any questions or comments, and thanks for reading!

Hi. A great post. How is this workable in FM23?

[coach vahid]

You write about the opposition instruction...It seems a thing important in your tactic.

How you manage and can you show more details this part.

Thanks.

[Mst82]

5 hours ago, OJ said:

Thanks, that's great to hear

I've been tinkering around a bit to create a slightly alternated version. It's based off of a match where the opponent played a narrow 4231 and used their wingers to man-mark my inverted wingbacks, which disrupted our build-up enough for my taste to add some variables.

When playing any kind of possession system, your build-up is the most important thing and where one should spend the most time thinking/perfecting, because without it you won't achieve the desired goals, which is control (which then leads to wins as long as your attack isn't toothless).

I'll write it out asap, and open up a bit more my thought process along the way on how I approach certain scenarios/types of matches.

I managed to take the title back from Bayern, but the tactic was definitely found out the last few games of the season. All oppo played 4-2-3-1 deep and as you say, man marked the IWBs. I had to grind out results in the end so looks like next season will be a tough one with this tactic!

[OJ]

17 hours ago, Maxim26 said:

Hi. A great post. How is this workable in FM23?

Thanks! It's a fundamentally solid tactic so it should work just fine. Of course as with anything you might need to adjust some small tings to fit your team/players. Or is there a specific aspect you're worried about?

[OJ]

15 hours ago, coach vahid said:

You write about the opposition instruction...It seems a thing important in your tactic.

How you manage and can you show more details this part.

Thanks.

Not really that important, no. Like I said, at times with high quality opponent players/teams, I might target their few key players to distrupt their build-up (as I described in one of the posts above), because I know they will also look to try to play and have possession. The most key one usually, is a DLP in the midfield strata, because they will constantly look to drop deep to receive the ball ,and can thus have too much time to pick up through balls to their front guys, so having your CM marking him will deny a lot of that space.

[OJ]

15 hours ago, Mst82 said:

I managed to take the title back from Bayern, but the tactic was definitely found out the last few games of the season. All oppo played 4-2-3-1 deep and as you say, man marked the IWBs. I had to grind out results in the end so looks like next season will be a tough one with this tactic!

For these cases you can get away with some smallish modifications to counter it, I'll try to share the variation I created today.

[Maxim26]

21 час назад, OJ сказал:

Thanks! It's a fundamentally solid tactic so it should work just fine. Of course as with anything you might need to adjust some small tings to fit your team/players. Or is there a specific aspect you're worried about?

In FM23, the mentality and command instructions are slightly changed if I understand everything correctly

[hbsssj]

Love this post. Gonna try to replicate first tactic with my Arsenal in FM 23

[Maxim26]

20 часов назад, hbsssj сказал:

Love this post. Gonna try to replicate first tactic with my Arsenal in FM 23

Tell us about your results in fm 23 please.

[Maxim26]

I tested this tactic in FM23 for MU in my third season and the results are just disgusting. I lose to everyone I can and what I haven't changed in this tactic. Apparently there is a difference between 21 and 23.

[hbsssj]

3 horas atrás, Maxim26 disse:

Tell us about your results in fm 23 please.

I'm struggling a bit, to be honest. I feel my defense sometimes only watching opposition strikers scoring. And i need more power in attack. Change BBM to CM-A and now we are a little more dangerous, but still isn't enough for me. 

 

 

[Mst82]

3 hours ago, hbsssj said:

I'm struggling a bit, to be honest. I feel my defense sometimes only watching opposition strikers scoring. And i need more power in attack. Change BBM to CM-A and now we are a little more dangerous, but still isn't enough for me. 

 

 

It worked for a good few months for me barring a hammering away to RB Leipzig - by the end of the season it was found out and I had to adjust on the fly to grind out results. 
 

I was having loads of the ball but had zero penetration, even against far inferior opposition I couldn’t open them up often. It was too slow and predictable I reckon. 
 

However, I’ve used the fundamentals of the tactic to create my own and it’s working well so far - just waiting to play a top, top side away from home to see how well it is actually working!

Edited January 13, 2023 by Mst82

[hbsssj]

15 horas atrás, Mst82 disse:

It worked for a good few months for me barring a hammering away to RB Leipzig - by the end of the season it was found out and I had to adjust on the fly to grind out results. 
 

I was having loads of the ball but had zero penetration, even against far inferior opposition I couldn’t open them up often. It was too slow and predictable I reckon. 
 

However, I’ve used the fundamentals of the tactic to create my own and it’s working well so far - just waiting to play a top, top side away from home to see how well it is actually working!

Please update us. Now I changed RPM to AP-A with get further forward trying to increase players in opposition area

[Mst82]

9 hours ago, hbsssj said:

Please update us. Now I changed RPM to AP-A with get further forward trying to increase players in opposition area

I’ll share tomorrow, not with my laptop at the minute. I don’t use playmakers though and I scrapped the IWBs for standard full backs with support duties. 

[OJ]

Hi all,

Took a bit longer to have the time to write out some more stuff, but  I'm happy to see some discussion going in the meantime!

Before I dive in, let me just say that with whatever tactics you use, it's impossible to go on autopilot, let's say, and just keep winning and winning while playing great, without adjusting here or there, as the opponent is adjusting to you. This is true in FM as it is in real life, good example is City's struggle today to create anything against United. If you watch City etc closely, you'll often see small changes in the shape of the build-up, for example, depending on the opponents.

But in case things are not working, before you start changing everything around, the best advice I can give is go on Full Match for at least 10-20 minutes. It's the best (and mostly I'd say only) way to identify in a game where the issue really is. So go on full match and just watch for patterns where your build-up or chance creation breaks, and then start thinking about how/what to adjust. Often you might not need to change that much to make things work.

So as I alluded to earlier, I change some things here or there depending how the match is playing out and what tactics/teams I'm facing. I'll try to cover at least fairly extensively, and with some examples, on how you can adjust based on what the opponent is doing and what kind of a team you're facing.

The variation to the tactic above is not greatly different, a couple of different player roles and different starting mentality and tempo are the main differences.

Before I show it, I would say that (in my opinion, or for me anyways, based on what I use to change a match if plan A is not working), the best way to run tactics is besides having your main one, have the other 2 tactics be a different version of the same tactic, except with variations to the following:

• Mentality; if I start on Positive, then the other 2 tactics will be on Balanced and Attacking
• Tempo; if I start on standard (slightly lower tempo with a possession tactic), then the other 2 will be on Lower and one Slightly Higher tempo
• Width, if I start on Balanced, then the other 2 will be on Narrow and Wider

So basically I'm training my team to be comfortable with the standard option on all these, as well as left/right in the sliders so to say, so I can vary within game as needed, how I think the best will be in case I'm struggling in a match. The width I normally quite rarely touch though, so I'm mainly changing mentality and tempo. I'll give a few examples, or some rough rules:

• If I face a very defensive team, if they're a lower level team compared to me (ie I'm not playing the other top teams), I generally drop the tempo to Lower, as the other team will not press, so I want to give my guys a bit more time on the ball to a bit more carefully work the openings. Sometimes changing the tempo slightly alone, without touching anything else, can be the key difference. If I'm on Positive but still not creating enough quality chances,where it feels like we are forcing the issue, I'll drop to Balanced, to be a bit more patient with the opening.  Attacking I might use when chasing a goal. Don't remember the last time I went on Attacking, though, out of personal preference really. If they are a top team, meaning finding space will be harder, I will stay on one of the higher tempos more often, as you might need it to work the openings a little bit quicker.
• If I face a team that's of equal level and they're looking to press me, I might go from standard tempo to even higher, at least parts of the match. Mainly I'll use the standard tempo, though, but at times luring them in with Lower tempo can work even better to expose gaps, as long as your players don't get caught in possession under the press. This is match by match basis really to decide. Quite often I might also use Balanced, but if it's not working and I feel we're not in the driver's seat creating changes, I'll mainly be on Positive.

Next let me cover one specific scenario. Since the double inverted Wingbacks play a big role in my build-ups and in keeping possession, if the opposition is in a narrow 4231 for example, and especially if they're man-marking my IWBs, I'll put both my CMs on Stay Wider. This will make them play quite similarly to Mezzalas and have them more in the channels. Since the IWBs and quite likely you're DM are not great options for you goalie/CB to pass to, he'll have more reliably the CMs as options, or if they go wide to one of your wide guys, again the CMs will be closer to them to offer an overload option for your wide guy against the opposing fullback. This might be the only change required to make things work. If your build-up is being disrupted because the IWBs are getting marked out, identify where the space is (beauty of football is there is always space somewhere), and then look to adjust to make use of it.

Below screenshot is from a match against United, where they played a very narrow 4231. You'll see when we look to build-up their front 4 is all close to my IWBs and DM, but there is giant amounts of space behind them. And if we get the ball to one of the wide guys, their fullback will be isolated against your wide guy, so if you get your CMs to support you can play around them through the wide areas/channels:

So I have my CMs on Stay Wider, so they're constantly supporting my Wide guys, as mentioned pretty much like Mezzalas, when we're in possession, and we can play a lot around their narrow 4231 like this; because also their 2CMs are deep and central, so will take them time to come support on the wide areas.

If this alone is not enough, you could also put your DM as a Regista, as you'll see below in my variation. This is of course a bit of a trade off: you'll become slightly more predictable as more of the play will be funneled through him, however it also adds variation since he's more aggressive in his lateral movement than a standard DM, offering you more options around their narrow front 4. If you're struggling with being aggressive enough with creating chances, Regista (or any Playmaker role) can help with that. Or, you could change the IW into a wide Playmaker instead of using Regista, then they'll go even more to the wing to bypass the narrow opposing front 4, but make sure you have one of the CMs supporting and with Stay Wider, imo.

Sometimes the issue can just be your wide guys getting too much of the ball deeper and wider and not having a great game, because when using IWBs the toughest roles to play are with the wide guys, as they have to play a lot 1v1. So in some matches they might just need a bit more support, which you can do with the stay wider instructions on your CMs.

What I've also done in the variation is change one of the Inverted Wingers into a Raumdeuter. As with going for a playmaking role, this will also make you from one side a bit more predictable in that your guys will look for him more often, as he'll be making lots of runs, but what I love about the role with Possession tactics in general, and specifically here (because of the inspiration to the tactic), is that the Raumdeuter fits perfectly to a fluid pass and move system because in possession they'll often keep it simple and just lay it off, and the aggression comes from constantly looking for space to make penetrating runs. The Regista and Raumdeuter work nicely together, though it's not necessary to have a Playmaker to get through balls to the Raumdeuter. I can clip goal examples of how it plays out, if anyone is interested.

Basically I've explained above the differences, and below you'll have the overview. Player Instructions are the same as in the first tactic above. Except one thing I forgot to mention originally, I also have my CM's changing positions with each other, so within the game that adds some variation with the footedness of the players, and having my more aggressive guy in the lower mentality role(support), and vice versa. And the same with this tactic, my CMs changing with each other.

I hope this gives some food for thought, as like I said most often than not you don't need to/shouldn't do drastic changes, but identify the pain points and try some subtler changes. Of course some times no matter what you do, your guys are not playing great, sometimes it can just come down to subs as well.

[OJ]

On 09/01/2023 at 21:47, Mst82 said:

I managed to take the title back from Bayern, but the tactic was definitely found out the last few games of the season. All oppo played 4-2-3-1 deep and as you say, man marked the IWBs. I had to grind out results in the end so looks like next season will be a tough one with this tactic!

Have a look at my above post, I mention this example and how I get around it.

[OJ]

On 12/01/2023 at 16:10, hbsssj said:

Love this post. Gonna try to replicate first tactic with my Arsenal in FM 23

Thanks! However the tactic from the first page was a bit more specific built to counter some stuff specific to FM20, but if you see above my tactics in this page, they're a bit more universal and might be a better starting point, tbh.

[The3points]

On 08/01/2023 at 16:14, OJ said:

To add to what I said above about Pep and the width, for example, below's a great clip of my all time favourite, Thierry Henry, explaining this exact thing, and also how he got in trouble with Pep for for not keeping the width during build-up.

In the beginning he doesn't spell the wide width out, but as you see in the beginning he shows how up until you get to the final third, the wide guys are supposed to stay wide, as said to especially open space for Xavi/Iniesta in the inside channels, and you only have freedom of movement (inside), once you're in the final third.

At the end he shows this on the tactics board, you see the wide guys are positioned hugging the line when Barca were in possession deeper (mentions Villa, after Titi he played the same role, had the same instructions to keep width).

 

The only thing is FM width confuses me because the description of narrow width details playing in the middle of the pitch vs using the flanks. Using Arsenal example, Arsenal have the highest proportion of central play in the league

[OJ]

2 hours ago, The3points said:

The only thing is FM width confuses me because the description of narrow width details playing in the middle of the pitch vs using the flanks. Using Arsenal example, Arsenal have the highest proportion of central play in the league

Yeah, I'd say the description is a bit misleading, or not true all the time (depending on your instructions and roles). Think of it more as a starting position when in possession, because when you use instructions like play through the middle, use underlaps and have player roles like IF/IW/RAM that will come inside once you get higher up the pitch, how it plays out and what the point of the guys out wide first, and using the full width of the pitch is when in possession deep, the wide guys are outlet balls to get out from under the press/progress upfield, deep they'll often just rotate it inside, and once you move up they'll start coming inside but the wide with allows you max gaps and space before you start condensing the pitch.

Yes, Arsenal play a lot in the middle, but if you're watching for example the ongoing North London Derby, pay attention to Martinelli's and Saka's positioning; like I said in an earlier post, Arsenal under Arteta play also with wide width in FM terms, Gabi and Saka are all the time hugging the touch line when arsenal are in possession deeper, and only start coming inside once Arsenal are close to the final third. What I wrote earlier:

So what you'll see for example Pep and Arteta for Arsenal do is have the wide guys often hugging the touch line (Ie wide width) when they're in possession in their own half, and progressively as they move up the field the wide guys will start condensing the pitch and moving inside (Saka and Martinelli for example play IRL pretty much exactly like Inverted Wingers, ie start wide and then dribble/move inside as Arsenal are getting closer to the box). So it's only the starting point, really, because the wide guys will most of the time look to move infield once play progresses upfield.

In game example, again from the earlier post, you'll see how it plays out, we are using wide width:

If you watch this goal I posted above, it's a good example. Look at my wide guys the moment my left centreback (Bostanci) gets the ball and starts the attack leading to the goal, at about 14secs in, they're close to the touch line, and would be hugging them if we had been a little deeper in possession. But regardless, once we start progressing they start moving inside, and Gilberto Antonio, my right IW in the end provides the assist for the goal from inside the box. As you can see by the time we're close to scoring and once we do, all our players are inside. So as said, the width is mainly just a starting position, so to say:

So because of how we (and Arsenal IRL) are setup and with the player roles used, even with wide width we (them) play centrally most of the game, as intended. I can post some heatmaps later.