[FM20] Help me achieve the football I want

[josel15]

So guys, I need help wuth my tactic. It first started as a 4-4-2 but the DLF(s) wasn't deep and didn't propely connect the midfield and the attack so I lowered him to the AM(a) strata, and I have been having good results in what I want from him, he collects the ball deep and runs with it or does a good pass while still being kinda penetrative, I've been thinking of using him as a SS. Now, his partner, I don't know how to play him. If he is on something like PF(a) or AF he will be isolated a few too many times, if he has a support role, like CF or PF he won't get behind the defence, while helping more in the build-up, but since I have 2 excellent finishers I want them to get 1v1 with the keeper.

The wing play has been interesting, been liking my right flank a lot (except when my full back hugs the touchline when there is no need) but I feel that in general they aren't real penetrative and I want my wingers to make a few more runs (my right IW has the sit narrower instruction while the left one has not). I have an excellent CWB on the left so I just play him to his strengths (since he is excellent with the ball on his feet perhaps I will change him to FB (s) and tell him to roam and sit narrower (perhaps changing the DM's)).

The Regista and HB have been solid but not brilliant, but I think they've been good enough.

So, what do I want?
I want a swiss army knife team, being able to be good with possession but also on the counter, press high but not destroying all the defensive side of the things, as I said, a swiss army knife team.

If I didn't explain anything well, say it and I will

 

 

[Experienced Defender]

Don't know your team, so it's hard to offer any specific advice. Is it a top team or average or underdog?

I can only tell you how I personally would tweak the tactic to make it more sensible overall, but cannot guarantee that it will work for your team specifically.

[josel15]

35 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Don't know your team, so it's hard to offer any specific advice. Is it a top team or average or underdog?

I can only tell you how I personally would tweak the tactic to make it more sensible overall, but cannot guarantee that it will work for your team specifically.

Sorry

I'm playing as Benfica, so I'm a favourite for 90% of the matches I will do, except in Champions League.

I've beaten Sporting and Porto, as they are my rivals, but sometimes against lesses sides I don't really open them up, I always start with balanced and whether my team plays the other off the park or there will be 3 shots in 30 minutes unless I go to positive and we start doing something.

[Experienced Defender]

1 minute ago, josel15 said:

I'm playing as Benfica, so I'm a favourite for 90% of the matches

If so, then I don't see why you opted for this bottom-heavy formation (42dm22)? Because that type of formation is usually used by underdog teams. not top sides. 

[josel15]

3 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

If so, then I don't see why you opted for this bottom-heavy formation (42dm22)? Because that type of formation is usually used by underdog teams. not top sides. 

I felt that with 2 centre midfielders there was no space to play and it felt a bit shaky defensively.
What would be your suggestions?

[Experienced Defender]

12 hours ago, josel15 said:

I felt that with 2 centre midfielders there was no space to play and it felt a bit shaky defensively

In which formation did you use 2 CMs? 4231 or 4123 wide or 442/4411 etc? 

Space has nothing to do with having 2 CMs (or  even 3), it's about how you create and use space by setting up roles, duties and instructions wisely. 

[josel15]

@Experienced DefenderIn a 4-4-2. I thought they were too high up on the pitch. I used a CM(s)-DLP(d) partnership. But I had a DLF(s) and I didn't think he was involved enough.

I think the tactic the way it is, is good for hard teams (beaten all the big boys in Portugal besides Benfica and I am having an excellent european campaign) but for small ones it is lacking, I've drew (once again) against a really bad side.

I am just working this 4-4-2 for now, no other tactic yet.

I've been very solid defensively, but would like a little more action in the attack

Edit: Another thing I didn't said, since my full backs will be high in possession (or at least I want them to) I want the centre mids to function a bit as  a pivot, and let the wingers occupy the half spaces and also be creators.

Edited April 11, 2020 by josel15

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, josel15 said:

In a 4-4-2. I thought they were too high up on the pitch. I used a CM(s)-DLP(d) partnership. But I had a DLF(s) and I didn't think he was involved enough

You'll need to post that 442 tactic as a whole (screenshot) so that I could properly analyze it and tell you what exactly were the most likely issues. 

 

2 hours ago, josel15 said:

I am just working this 4-4-2 for now, no other tactic yet.

I've been very solid defensively, but would like a little more action in the attack

Edit: Another thing I didn't said, since my full backs will be high in possession (or at least I want them to) I want the centre mids to function a bit as  a pivot, and let the wingers occupy the half spaces and also be creator

As I said, post the tactic first, because otherwise I can only speculate. 

[josel15]

2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

You'll need to post that 442 tactic as a whole (screenshot) so that I could properly analyze it and tell you what exactly were the most likely issues. 

 

As I said, post the tactic first, because otherwise I can only speculate. 

This one is the one I'm using now, with the changes, and as you is say too much bottom-heavy.

The first one was this.

As I said, it felt like it had no space. The thing I truly now want is the AM on attack, he does (from what I see) what I expect of him better than the DLF, who doesn't seem to track back to defend (perhaps due to characteristics of the player itself).

 

Edited April 11, 2020 by josel15

[Experienced Defender]

5 minutes ago, josel15 said:

As I said, it felt like it had no space

Because of your very aggressive defensive instructions + narrow width + focus play through the middle (which makes no sense, because you are forcing the play through the area that is already too congested by packed opposition defenses).

You are generally using more instructions than necessary in both tactics. Roles and duties also need some tweaking so that the setup as a whole would be more sensible. I would make it a lot more simple if it was my tactic. 

[josel15]

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

Because of your very aggressive defensive instructions + narrow width + focus play through the middle (which makes no sense, because you are forcing the play through the area that is already too congested by packed opposition defenses).

You are generally using more instructions than necessary in both tactics. Roles and duties also need some tweaking so that the setup as a whole would be more sensible. I would make it a lot more simple if it was my tactic. 

So, lower line of engagement + standard width perhaps?
I also disabled underlaps because I think it overforced even more.
And what tweaks would you do in the roles?

Edited April 11, 2020 by josel15

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, josel15 said:

So, lower line of engagement + standard width perhaps?

Lower LOE would make sense if you want to play a counter-attacking style. But given that you are Benfica, I fear that would not be a good idea. 

 

2 hours ago, josel15 said:

what tweaks would you do in the roles?

For which formation - 442 or 42211 (or both)?

[josel15]

6 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Lower LOE would make sense if you want to play a counter-attacking style. But given that you are Benfica, I fear that would not be a good idea. 

 

For which formation - 442 or 42211 (or both)?

For the 4-2-2-1-1, that's my main (and only at the moment) tactic!
I played a game with standard width and focus play through the middle and another with narrow width without focus through the middle and the team felt more compact in the second one, giving less space when the ball was lost to the oppenents.

 

About the bold part, yes it would be a disaster, that's why I have both of them high

Edited April 11, 2020 by josel15

[Justified]

Insane amount of instructions... My current 442 IIRC has 5. Never had more then that active at any point pre or in game.

Also I'm not surprised that the original 442 did not work, it actually makes no sense. Take a step back, look at the TI's and roles and tell me what do you think will happen if you go into a match with those instructions? I'm just curious.

[josel15]

1 hour ago, Justified said:

Insane amount of instructions... My current 442 IIRC has 5. Never had more then that active at any point pre or in game.

Also I'm not surprised that the original 442 did not work, it actually makes no sense. Take a step back, look at the TI's and roles and tell me what do you think will happen if you go into a match with those instructions? I'm just curious.

As I said previously, I don't use that 4-4-2, I use the 4-2-2-1-1.

To answer your question, what I want is something like this:https://totalfootballanalysis.com/head-coach-analysis/bruno-lage-benfica-tactical-analysis-analysis-statistics

Pretty much a swiss army knife tactic but with a more personal side to it. I wanted to create a square between the central defenders and the cm's, one being more creative and sometimes envolved in the attack, the regista, and the other being much more deeper and defensive. I want the wingers coming inside to create or sometimes run behind the defence and shoot. The striker partnership was someone who would be an all-arounder (that was João Félix) but with more defensive responsabilities and a striker that would press the oppenents build-up.

The instructions of the 4-4-2 and the 4-2-2-1-1 are different rn, but in the 4-4-2 I wanted to funnel the game and make through passes between the opponents DC's and FB's, perhaps what I've done is overforce that.
I also want to press high and be somewhat good counter attacking in the odd time it is possible (since I'm playing as Benfica that is going to rarely happen in Portugal).

Since my right side DM is the more defensive one I have sit narrower on my MR and the one on the left is left with his original narrow.

How I want to attack is the swiss army knife part. I don't want to have 70% possession and passing for the sake of it, I've already won games that I had 65% of possession and others with 35%, I'm much more concerned with what we do with the ball, that's why I have faster tempo and standard passing, for the team to be able to decide what they want to do in any given moment, without either rushing too much or slowing it down massively (I already have work ball into the box and play out of defence) so I think I can work with faster tempo.

This became longer than probably you wanted but oh well

 

Edited April 11, 2020 by josel15

[Justified]

An AMC on attack duty is not going to help you much defensively. You'll have much better luck with an AMC on support with Forward Run PI. I would personally not play through the middle because you become really one-dimensional. All opponents would have to do is line up with a box (2 DC's and 2 DMC's) or a DMC infront of a back 3 and you're attack is pretty much void. The regista is a playmaking role so the focus would pretty much be central anyways. I would tinker with width as well. For the same reason as focus through the middle, the tactic is already focused centrally so you're overkilling it IMO.

[josel15]

4 minutes ago, Justified said:

An AMC on attack duty is not going to help you much defensively. You'll have much better luck with an AMC on support with Forward Run PI. I would personally not play through the middle because you become really one-dimensional. All opponents would have to do is line up with a box (2 DC's and 2 DMC's) or a DMC infront of a back 3 and you're attack is pretty much void. The regista is a playmaking role so the focus would pretty much be central anyways. I would tinker with width as well. For the same reason as focus through the middle, the tactic is already focused centrally so you're overkilling it IMO.

Yes, I thought the same, so I took off the play throught the middle instruction while still being narrow, it was a bit more fluid and created a few chances that I liked to see (the IW got each a 1v1 because they run behind the FB).

The AMC on attack still pressed as I wanted him to, I also want him to be somewhat high in the pitch after the recovery of the ball and perhaps be a point where my players pass the ball to.

@Justified @Experienced Defender, do you think that putting here the OI's of the players would help? I have roam from position in the IW and the AMC, and said AMC also has 'try risky passes', that being Taarabt/Chiquinho is worthy (although they've never done one of those jaw dropping passes ).

[Justified]

That could be because lack of movement or congesting the middle so the AMC can't actually thread any passes through.

If you're looking for a Bruno Lage re-creation but with a Regista, PF and an AMC I would personally line-up line this:

           PFat

AMCsu                     

IWat                                 IWsu/WMsu

REG        DMCde

WBsu   CDde   CDde    FBat

SKsu

 

You could really do some damage with that I think. Not something I've ever played with but it makes sense if you want those roles in there but based on Bruno Lage.

[josel15]

15 minutes ago, Justified said:

That could be because lack of movement or congesting the middle so the AMC can't actually thread any passes through.

If you're looking for a Bruno Lage re-creation but with a Regista, PF and an AMC I would personally line-up line this:

           PFat

AMCsu                     

IWat                                 IWsu/WMsu

REG        DMCde

WBsu   CDde   CDde    FBat

SKsu

 

You could really do some damage with that I think. Not something I've ever played with but it makes sense if you want those roles in there but based on Bruno Lage.

Thank you!

The thing is that Bruno actually overflowed the left side! João Félix interchanged more with Pizzi on the right, and had few defensive responsabilities, and I don't know if I want to put a player as a trequartista, and for some reason the AMC as a support doesn't work with me , but team instructions, what would you choose?

 

EDIT: I think I'll put the forward in the center so he can run freely and Rafa/left winger will have space to run, something like this:

Or even put the AMC and the forward centraly and let them have roam from position

Edited April 11, 2020 by josel15

[Justified]

I'd be tempted to go Positive with Benfica just because it'd give the Regista a high individual mentality so he'll be a space hunter. Quicker Tempo as default. Add WBIB + BME against Defensive sides. Counter-Press, distribute to CD + Fullbacks as default. Add counter against sides that actually give space. Out of Possession I'd have Higher DL + Offside Trap.

[josel15]

6 minutes ago, Justified said:

I'd be tempted to go Positive with Benfica just because it'd give the Regista a high individual mentality so he'll be a space hunter. Quicker Tempo as default. Add WBIB + BME against Defensive sides. Counter-Press, distribute to CD + Fullbacks as default. Add counter against sides that actually give space. Out of Possession I'd have Higher DL + Offside Trap.

Tried the setup you said, liked it, just want the AMC to be a little more offensive and get more in the box, but overall worked really cool, it felt more natural in terms of space all around!

Perhaps using the AMC as an more offensive role would work? Something in the lines of a Treq or a Shadow Striker, to still drop deep and help building play but still be a threat in the box?

Edited April 11, 2020 by josel15

[Experienced Defender]

5 hours ago, josel15 said:

For the 4-2-2-1-1, that's my main (and only at the moment) tactic!

Okay. As you use a regista, I hope that you have the right type of player for that role, because it's more tricky and demanding than an ordinary DLP. 

Now I'll give you an example of how you can set up a 42211 tactic employing a regista and assuming that he is a right-footed player:

PFat

AMat

IWsu                            WMsu

Ade    REG

WBat    CDde   CDde   WBsu

SKsu

Given that you are Benfica (a top team in your national league), I would probably go with these starting team instructions:

Mentality - Positive or Balanced

In possession - play out of defence, shorter passing and run at defence

In transition - counter-press (but not always)

Out of possession - higher D-line and offside trap

Player instructions:

ML/IWsu - sit narrower

AMat - roam from position

[josel15]

4 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Okay. As you use a regista, I hope that you have the right type of player for that role, because it's more tricky and demanding than an ordinary DLP. 

Now I'll give you an example of how you can set up a 42211 tactic employing a regista and assuming that he is a right-footed player:

PFat

AMat

IWsu                            WMsu

Ade    REG

WBat    CDde   CDde   WBsu

SKsu

Given that you are Benfica (a top team in your national league), I would probably go with these starting team instructions:

Mentality - Positive or Balanced

In possession - play out of defence, shorter passing and run at defence

In transition - counter-press (but not always)

Out of possession - higher D-line and offside trap

Player instructions:

ML/IWsu - sit narrower

AMat - roam from position

Thank you so much!

My registas are pretty good, I have Gabriel (which is an all around type of midfielder) and Weigl who needs no introduction.

Why the shorter passing? I feel like if my LOE isn't high there is no press from my team.

[Experienced Defender]

43 minutes ago, josel15 said:

Thank you so much!

Do not thank me in advance. Test the tactic first, because it's not a plug'n'play and will therefore probably require some tweaks (at least on an occasional basis). 

 

44 minutes ago, josel15 said:

Why the shorter passing?

Why not? 

 

45 minutes ago, josel15 said:

I feel like if my LOE isn't high there is no press from my team

You wanted to use a defensive (bottom-heavy) formation. You can try with a higher LOE if you want, but I am not sure how much it's going to help in this particular case. 

[josel15]

I think I've settled in a 4-2-2-1-1 that has a mixture of what you @Experienced Defender and @Justified said. I like the idea of the IW on attack on the left, it felt like my counter attack and even positional attack improved with him there. I used the WM(s) on the right and from what I've seen I liked, but using Pizzi/Zivkovic/Tiago Dantas there will be the real test since they have more of a creator profile than a winger, but since they are all injured not much can be done

The only thing that has been hard to get right is the AMC, but work will be done.
If I wanted to push the DMC's to the mc strata and press higher, what would be your suggestions?

[Justified]

I've always been a fan of DLPsu + CMd in midfield. That's my personal preference because I like the double pivot midfield.

[josel15]

12 minutes ago, Justified said:

I've always been a fan of DLPsu + CMd in midfield. That's my personal preference because I like the double pivot midfield.

I think I will test it, I used it in fm19 aswell to some mixed results.
I just fear that the DLP(s) will go near the opposition area a few too many times, but I will try it

[Justified]

Like I said, it's just my personal preference because I know how to make it work. If you get it interacting with attacking roles around him and width spreading play he can switch things really nicely and really shift a defence to pieces. He shouldn't get too close to the area like an AP does as he is lower down the field.

[josel15]

6 minutes ago, Justified said:

Like I said, it's just my personal preference because I know how to make it work. If you get it interacting with attacking roles around him and width spreading play he can switch things really nicely and really shift a defence to pieces. He shouldn't get too close to the area like an AP does as he is lower down the field.

I'll try having on the left only the IW(a) and put the AMC more on the center and make a 4-4-1-1 without the striker and the AMC being on the left or right, because I have the fear that they will run into each other, but the same can be said about the AMC and the PF, let me try this out

[Justified]

They shouldn't run into each other. PFa is a space seeking role, he'll move into channels looking to run into gaps.

[josel15]

I kinda settled on this one.

I didn't like too much the run at defence, it seemed like my players lost the ball a lot, and I want for them to pass a lot of the ball and be constantly making passes, in the sense that I want them to create chances due to passing than due to dribbling. If I didn't set the higher tempo it seems like the team doesn't create that much.

@Justified, do you think I am creating space for the DLP to operate in the area?

[josel15]

@Experienced Defender, I talked about in the quickfire thread

This is the main tactic for now and ditched the 4-4-1-1, I couldn't get it to work as I wanted and gave up, making way for the 4-3-3.

I'm not looking for any particular kind of style, if it makes sense? I want some possession, but also being good at counters, I want to be unpredictable and let the players express themselves the best way they can. The only thing that I don't really like is what I've said, I don't particullary know how to use those pacy, tricky wingers that have run with ball PPM's, if I use them as IW or IF, whether on support or attack, but on this tactic I'm kinda looking to create some overload on the right and release on the left (happened a few times ) to the IF to attack, perhaps using him on attack duty would be interesting. Of course I could turn roles around, but at the moment all my wingers are pretty much right footed. My forwards have play 1-2's or plays with back to the net PPM's, so I think DLF is good for them.

Oh, my passing is actually shorter and not standard.

Edited April 21, 2020 by josel15

[Experienced Defender]

9 hours ago, josel15 said:

 

9 hours ago, josel15 said:

I'm not looking for any particular kind of style, if it makes sense? I want some possession, but also being good at counters, I want to be unpredictable and let the players express themselves the best way they can. The only thing that I don't really like is what I've said, I don't particullary know how to use those pacy, tricky wingers that have run with ball PPM's, if I use them as IW or IF, whether on support or attack, but on this tactic I'm kinda looking to create some overload on the right and release on the left (happened a few times ) to the IF to attack, perhaps using him on attack duty would be interesting. Of course I could turn roles around, but at the moment all my wingers are pretty much right footed. My forwards have play 1-2's or plays with back to the net PPM's, so I think DLF is good for them.

Oh, my passing is actually shorter and not standard

Taking all this into account, here is what I personally would try:

DLFsu

IFat                                  IWsu

MEZsu    DLPsu

DMde

WBsu   CDde   CDde   FBat

SK

In terms of instructions, I would:

- replace the more urgent pressing with a split block

- remove the counter in transition

- not use the Be more expressive all the time (or would use it together with the Work ball into box)

That would be my starting point for what you are looking to achieve.

[josel15]

54 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

 

Taking all this into account, here is what I personally would try:

DLFsu

IFat                                  IWsu

MEZsu    DLPsu

DMde

WBsu   CDde   CDde   FBat

SK

In terms of instructions, I would:

- replace the more urgent pressing with a split block

- remove the counter in transition

- not use the Be more expressive all the time (or would use it together with the Work ball into box)

That would be my starting point for what you are looking to achieve.

So, I understand all the roles and duties bar three questions

I have two very mobile playmakers, that's why I've put the RPM, can't they work as RPM's aswell or it's better for them to be more of a pivot due to the attacking fullback?

About the fullback and WB, I had them like that before changing as in the print I've posted, and it felt as the IF got too isolated and the FB and IW negated themselves by being in the same place, any tip?

[Experienced Defender]

4 hours ago, josel15 said:

I have two very mobile playmakers, that's why I've put the RPM

Okay, but you cannot give roles to players in isolation. The fact that a player can play some role does not automatically mean that you should play him in that role. You always need to consider the rest of your system (as well as what you want to achieve in terms of playing style). 

 

4 hours ago, josel15 said:

can't they work as RPM's aswell or it's better for them to be more of a pivot due to the attacking fullback?

In this case the latter is the reason (the pivot/holding midfielder due to the attacking FB) + your intention to create an overload on the right to release the wide forward (I guess Rafa?) on the left. 

In case you want to use a RPM, I would rather put him in the MCL (behind the IF on attack duty), but that would probably require some tweaking elsewhere). 

4 hours ago, josel15 said:

About the fullback and WB, I had them like that before changing as in the print I've posted, and it felt as the IF got too isolated and the FB and IW negated themselves by being in the same place, any tip?

I don't know what that particular previous tactic looked like, so if you could post a screenshot of that particular tactic as a whole (or at least sketch it out), that would be more than welcome. 

[josel15]

2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

In this case the latter is the reason (the pivot/holding midfielder due to the attacking FB) + your intention to create an overload on the right to release the wide forward (I guess Rafa?) on the left.

Yeah, I want to release whoever is playing on the left, as they all suit the Inside Forward role. Pacy with good dribling and finishing stats.

2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

In case you want to use a RPM, I would rather put him in the MCL (behind the IF on attack duty), but that would probably require some tweaking elsewhere). 

I would been tempted on that, but I really like the idea of the mezzala there,  so I'll put that as you have.

2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

I don't know what that particular previous tactic looked like, so if you could post a screenshot of that particular tactic as a whole (or at least sketch it out), that would be more than welcome. 

Same tactic, just the roles swapped, FB(at) on the right and WB(s) on the left.

I had another tactic that was the same (in terms of the fullbacks not supporting or being in the same place as the wide forward) and it was someting like this:

Spoiler

4-2-3-1 with same gk and defence role.

                       DLF(s)

           IF(s) - AM(s) - IW(s)
              CM(d)-DLP(s)

WB(s) - CD(d) - CD(d) - FB(at)

                   SK(s)

Same instructions: play out of defence, be more expressive, but with standard passing, counter-press and counter, higher LOE and DL, more urgent, offside trap.

I stopped using WBIB because sometimes it felt that it just gave opposing teams time to readjust and it became somewhat slow football.

About the split block, something like the forwards and two midfielders pressing while the rest doesn't?

Edited April 22, 2020 by josel15

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, josel15 said:

DLF(s)

           IF(s) - AM(s) - IW(s)
              CM(d)-DLP(s)

WB(s) - CD(d) - CD(d) - FB(at)

                   SK(s)

Here you have an obvious lack of penetration, so I fear you are most probably going to struggle with this setup. 

 

1 hour ago, josel15 said:

About the split block, something like the forwards and two midfielders pressing while the rest doesn't?

Yes, but there are variants, depending on how many players are involved in the split block. In a 4123, I personally prefer to have 4 players closing down more (striker, both wide forwards and the more attacking CM). The softer version involves only 2 of them - the striker and the more attacking CM. 

[josel15]

4 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Here you have an obvious lack of penetration, so I fear you are most probably going to struggle with this setup.

Felt you were going to say that, been thinking about using that as the secondary tactic with a DLF(at), change CM(s) to a DLP(d) a box-to-box on the right side and an AP(s) behind the striker and perhaps putting the winger on the left on attack, while changing the leftback to FB(s) and kepping the one on the right as FB(at)

4 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Here you have an obvious lack of penetration, so I fear you are most probably going to struggle with this setup. 

 

Yes, but there are variants, depending on how many players are involved in the split block. In a 4123, I personally prefer to have 4 players closing down more (striker, both wide forwards and the more attacking CM). The softer version involves only 2 of them - the striker and the more attacking CM. 

Doing that! Testing the tactic with the changes, some things I liked, others not so much, but I think I'll just tweak some things to them as I like

[Experienced Defender]

11 minutes ago, josel15 said:

Doing that! Testing the tactic with the changes, some things I liked, others not so much, but I think I'll just tweak some things to them as I like

[josel15]

On 22/04/2020 at 19:30, Experienced Defender said:

So, hi again ED

I've made around 10 to 15 games and I am not really liking what I've been seeing. Opposite teams have high possession (around high 50%) and we just don't seem to really have purposeful passing when we have the ball, sometimes the other team already has a few good chances and number of shots and I get to half time with 0 shots, which has been sad. Sometimes I revert to the old tactic and works fine, others doesn't.

I think this happens because perhaps we should be pressing higher? Benfica is a good team and a favourite for all domestic matches, pretty much. Perhaps a more possession based would work better, trying to cut the defence?

I would be open to a 4-3-3- or a 4-2-3-1 (but I feel that in a 4-2-3-1 would be too much top-heavy and kill any space we could have).

The things that I don't really like is that it feels like the team doesn't really go in the box, which is normal in the case of DLP, but the Mezzala just is walking around the edge of the area the way that I feel an AP(s) on CM strata would act. Another thing it that the attract and release on the overload isn't really happening, with any combination of wingers.

The setup I'm using is this, as we discussed the other day.

I've seen you talk about progressive possession, methodical attacking or even fast transitions.
As much as I like fast transitions, in Benfica it doesn't seem possible. One thing that perhaps I should say is that my squad, at the moment, has good to excellent work rate, concentration and those mentals that perhaps a more press-heavy style would suit better? And as I said before, since other teams have lower mentalites they just keep passing the ball in defence. Sorry for being a pain in the arse

Edited April 25, 2020 by josel15

[Experienced Defender]

3 hours ago, josel15 said:

So, hi again ED

I've made around 10 to 15 games and I am not really liking what I've been seeing. Opposite teams have high possession (around high 50%) and we just don't seem to really have purposeful passing when we have the ball, sometimes the other team already has a few good chances and number of shots and I get to half time with 0 shots, which has been sad. Sometimes I revert to the old tactic and works fine, others doesn't.

I think this happens because perhaps we should be pressing higher? Benfica is a good team and a favourite for all domestic matches, pretty much. Perhaps a more possession based would work better, trying to cut the defence?

I would be open to a 4-3-3- or a 4-2-3-1 (but I feel that in a 4-2-3-1 would be too much top-heavy and kill any space we could have).

The things that I don't really like is that it feels like the team doesn't really go in the box, which is normal in the case of DLP, but the Mezzala just is walking around the edge of the area the way that I feel an AP(s) on CM strata would act. Another thing it that the attract and release on the overload isn't really happening, with any combination of wingers.

The setup I'm using is this, as we discussed the other day.

I've seen you talk about progressive possession, methodical attacking or even fast transitions.
As much as I like fast transitions, in Benfica it doesn't seem possible. One thing that perhaps I should say is that my squad, at the moment, has good to excellent work rate, concentration and those mentals that perhaps a more press-heavy style would suit better? And as I said before, since other teams have lower mentalites they just keep passing the ball in defence. Sorry for being a pain in the arse

The problem is that I don't have sufficient information about your players, so I cannot know which exact tactic could suit them best. I can only give you different examples that generally make sense, but it's impossible to tell which one is going to be optimal for your team. 

The concrete example I proposed is not my favorite 4123 setup. Instead, I based it on your idea of creating an overload on the right to release the wide forward on the left. But I personally prefer having one of the CMs on attack duty, rather than both on support. Which of course requires a couple other tweaks so that the overall balance would be preserved. 

[josel15]

 

2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

The problem is that I don't have sufficient information about your players, so I cannot know which exact tactic could suit them best. I can only give you different examples that generally make sense, but it's impossible to tell which one is going to be optimal for your team. 

The concrete example I proposed is not my favorite 4123 setup. Instead, I based it on your idea of creating an overload on the right to release the wide forward on the left. But I personally prefer having one of the CMs on attack duty, rather than both on support. Which of course requires a couple other tweaks so that the overall balance would be preserved. 

Ok, sorry of course. I'll upload my preferred eleven/players on a spoiler to not get too messy.

GK

Spoiler

Central defenders

Spoiler

I always try to have good on the ball, fast CD's. Ferro is not fast or very focused, but bar that he is a really good CD.

 

FB's

Spoiler

Two somewhat modern full backs. Irl Grimaldo acts almost like a playmaker in the left flank, having freedom to go on the overlap or just staying back, or cut inside and shoot from distante, is almost like the RPM on the full back strata.

Midfielders

Spoiler

The main trio has been Florentino, Gabriel and Chiquinho. Dantas is still a WIP and Weigl with his low work rate and agression will surely be shipped off next season.

Wingers

Spoiler

You already know Rafa.

Aren´t really the most workrateholic guys, but I think it is common with wingers.

Strikers

Spoiler

Rafael is the pressing forward ultimate dream (for average to top teams), Vinicius is a somwhat traditional strong striker and number 9.

Gonçalo is the future.

 

 

 

Edited April 26, 2020 by josel15

[Experienced Defender]

10 hours ago, josel15 said:

Unfortunately, this guy definitely does not have proper attributes for a SK. Not only his passing, first touch and vision are poor, but so are his rushing out and command of area. Only his one on ones is good enough for a SK role, but everything else is highly questionable, to say the least. 

 

10 hours ago, josel15 said:

The main trio has been Florentino, Gabriel and Chiquinho. Dantas is still a WIP and Weigl with his low work rate and agression

And how exactly do you play them? Which one in which role? 

 

11 hours ago, josel15 said:

Aren´t really the most workrateholic guys, but I think it is common with wingers

These 4 guys seem to be the weakest link in your team, and not only because of work rate. Looking at them, I am not too surprised that you are struggling in attack. They are not too bad, but all are somewhat incomplete players. Btw, where is Rafa? 

 

11 hours ago, josel15 said:

Rafael is the pressing forward ultimate dream

I can agree with this  

 

17 hours ago, josel15 said:

The setup I'm using is this, as we discussed the other day.

Honestly, after having a look at your players' profiles, I would set them up in a different fashion. 

[josel15]

3 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Unfortunately, this guy definitely does not have proper attributes for a SK. Not only his passing, first touch and vision are poor, but so are his rushing out and command of area. Only his one on ones is good enough for a SK role, but everything else is highly questionable, to say the least.

I know he doesn't, I'm looking to improve with someone who is better with the ball, I'm hoping Svilar improves (cause he is already very good on the ball).

3 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

And how exactly do you play them? Which one in which role?

The DM(d) is Florentino, the DLP Gabriel and the Mezalla Chiquinho. When the team changes, Samaris or Weigle become the DM, Cataldi the DLP and Dantas the mezalla.

3 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

These 4 guys seem to be the weakest link in your team, and not only because of work rate. Looking at them, I am not too surprised that you are struggling in attack. They are not too bad, but all are somewhat incomplete players. Btw, where is Rafa?

Rafa has the same attributes as in the beggining. https://fmdataba.com/eng/20/p/147142/rafa/

 

About the wingers you're right, they really aren't up to standard as of now and are not the most working guys on defense.
Perhaps a strategy that doesn't demand too much pressure from the wingers and makes the the opponent team come to the middle where they face the more agressive side of the team?
What would be your suggestions?

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, josel15 said:

The DM(d) is Florentino, the DLP Gabriel and the Mezalla Chiquinho

Okay. 

 

1 hour ago, josel15 said:

Rafa has the same attributes as in the beggining. https://fmdataba.com/eng/20/p/147142/rafa/

He is definitely much better than any of other wide forwards in your team. If he gets injured, I fear none of them can replace him effectively enough. 

 

1 hour ago, josel15 said:

Perhaps a strategy that doesn't demand too much pressure from the wingers and makes the the opponent team come to the middle where they face the more agressive side of the team?

Yes, that makes sense 

[josel15]

2 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Yes, that makes sense 

I think that I won't be able to hold on to Rafa for more than this season, all the big teams want him, and if a good offer comes I will have to sell him.

If I was to setup a 4-3-3, and since both Florentino and Weigl are natural of playing as a DLP on defend would that release the midfielders to other functions?

I feel like I sometimes understand this game and others that I lose all my knowledge about him.

You talk about, in other threads, of methodical attacking or progressive possession, and if I think I can visualize the second one, the first one seems more of an alien concept. Could you explain the differences between one and another?

One thing that frustrates me is that when my full backs go on the overlap they could do an easy cutback pass but they will dribble and lose the ball or cross against the defender.

I would say my best wingers are Rafa, Zivkovic and Talles, and I can rotate them and in easier games introduce Úmaro and Jota to the mixture.

Something like:

                   DLFsu

IWat                                  IFsu

           B2B        CMat

                   DLPde

IWB(s)  CDde   CDde   FBs

                     GK

In terms of instructions, I would go:

WBIB, Shorter passing, Be more expressive, Play out of defence.
Counter-press
Higher LOE and DL, press more and offside. I don't know how to make them go through the middle and face my centre mids.

Of course even a 4-2-3-1 could control better? I don't know, open to suggestions

I don't think that in Portugal playing as Benfica I will have success without keeping the ball and trying to enter thorugh their area with all my players
What do you say @Experienced Defender?

[Experienced Defender]

6 hours ago, josel15 said:

I think that I won't be able to hold on to Rafa for more than this season, all the big teams want him, and if a good offer comes I will have to sell him

But you can then buy a player of similar quality to replace him, assuming you'll get good money for Rafa. 

 

6 hours ago, josel15 said:

You talk about, in other threads, of methodical attacking or progressive possession, and if I think I can visualize the second one, the first one seems more of an alien concept. Could you explain the differences between one and another?

Progressive possession and methodical attack are pretty similar styles. Methodical attack is essentially how City play under Pep. Fast attack is how Liverpool play under Klopp (most of the time). Progressive possession is somewhere between patient possession (tiki-taka and stuff like that) and methodical attack. So progressive possession is faster and more adventurous than patient possession, whereas methodical attack is more patient and possession-oriented than fast attack. Basically, it's rather nuances that separate these 3 styles - progressive possession, methodical attack and fast attack -  from one another. Of course, each of them can have its own slight variances. 

 

6 hours ago, josel15 said:

Something like:

                   DLFsu

IWat                                  IFsu

           B2B        CMat

                   DLPde

IWB(s)  CDde   CDde   FBs

                     GK

I personally don't like this setup, but you can try it out anyway. Maybe it will work, who knows. 

[josel15]

18 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Progressive possession and methodical attack are pretty similar styles. Methodical attack is essentially how City play under Pep. Fast attack is how Liverpool play under Klopp (most of the time). Progressive possession is somewhere between patient possession (tiki-taka and stuff like that) and methodical attack. So progressive possession is faster and more adventurous than patient possession, whereas methodical attack is more patient and possession-oriented than fast attack. Basically, it's rather nuances that separate these 3 styles - progressive possession, methodical attack and fast attack -  from one another. Of course, each of them can have its own slight variances.

How would you setup for progressive possession? Or an even better question, what style do you think it benefits my squad?

[Experienced Defender]

3 minutes ago, josel15 said:

How would you setup for progressive possession? Or an even better question, what style do you think it benefits my squad?

I think a bit toned-down version of progressive possession would be a good idea for starters. 

[josel15]

14 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

I think a bit toned-down version of progressive possession would be a good idea for starters. 

How would that translate in tactic and TI's to just play around the roles? And I am tryning to understand how to get the best of Grimaldo. WB(s)?