Player sent off, fined, wants to leave...

[Smurf]

12 hours ago, roykela said:

Normally i give a warning for 2 yellows, but there are exceptions i make. It depends on the context, game importance and/or when in the match. 2 yellows after 20 minutes is a 2 week fine from me. Especially if it's an important match and i've told the player to ease off.
Player normally isn't happy about it but gets over it after a little while.

Direct red card is always a fine, unless it's a bs one or a harsh one. But context etc, applies here as well.
Player normally accepts it, regardless whether it's 1 or 2 weeks.

I don't really have a problem with the way i'm doing it. Players kicking up a fuss, sure. But they get over it very quickly.
So i'd say that your "simple rules" can be a very good guideline but it's not the be-all, end-all.

The part that annoys me is that it isn't cumulative. 3 reds in 5 games (example taken out of my rear end), and unnecessarily so as well, and the player has no idea why you're not happy with him.
I end up dropping/selling him and there's more risk that all hell breaks loose within the team.
I find it kind of weird that the game has a promise system where player remember all kinds of stuff (even stuff that haven't been talked about, let alone promised) but it hasn't been programmed to remember that kind of behaviour, regarding conduct - fines and warnings. Yeah, i would love to see an improvement there in future versions.

Fining them based on the context of the dismissal is pointless though, they don't understand context. They don't understand cumlative. 

Quote

2 yellows after 20 minutes is a 2 week fine from me.

They don't understand this - 2 yellows = a warning, regardless of time/context.

 

This is what I'm trying to get across - the fining system within the game isn't sophisticated, all these self-made rules don't do anything to improve your squad behaviour. 

If a player is fined unfairly, they may not be upset with you, but it upsets the squad and individual players in the squad. 

If a player is fined unfairly, they may get upset, and it may not have an affect on your squad at all. 

 

Building rules for yourself to go by is fine - it's completely up to you what way you do it. 

I'm just saying, your own rules don't apply, you can't convey this as a squad policy. 

 

It would be great if there was a "Squad Policy>Discipline" and set the rules there. 

For example: 
1st time x 2 yellows = Warning
2nd time x 2yellows = 1 week fine
3rd time x 2 yellows = 2 week fine

etc

That way - if you break your own squad discipline rules, the players getting upset would make sense.

But currently - there is no way to set squad discipline rules. 

 

[Cavenagh]

4 hours ago, Smurf said:

Fining them based on the context of the dismissal is pointless though, they don't understand context. They don't understand cumlative. 

They don't understand this - 2 yellows = a warning, regardless of time/context.

 

This is what I'm trying to get across - the fining system within the game isn't sophisticated, all these self-made rules don't do anything to improve your squad behaviour. 

If a player is fined unfairly, they may not be upset with you, but it upsets the squad and individual players in the squad. 

If a player is fined unfairly, they may get upset, and it may not have an affect on your squad at all. 

 

Building rules for yourself to go by is fine - it's completely up to you what way you do it. 

I'm just saying, your own rules don't apply, you can't convey this as a squad policy. 

 

It would be great if there was a "Squad Policy>Discipline" and set the rules there. 

For example: 
1st time x 2 yellows = Warning
2nd time x 2yellows = 1 week fine
3rd time x 2 yellows = 2 week fine

etc

That way - if you break your own squad discipline rules, the players getting upset would make sense.

But currently - there is no way to set squad discipline rules. 

 

Utterly agree that there should be a club policy when it comes to fines and discipline. By my highly limited understanding, many clubs have a strict structure when it comes to fining for behaviour, that's part of the contract the player signs. It's not really at the discretion of the manager. Of course there's going to be a thousand counter examples. But being able to chose a disciplinary policy when becoming manager could alleviate the annoyances generated. A little.  

[roykela]

4 hours ago, Smurf said:

Fining them based on the context of the dismissal is pointless though, they don't understand context. They don't understand cumlative. 

They don't understand this - 2 yellows = a warning, regardless of time/context.

 

This is what I'm trying to get across - the fining system within the game isn't sophisticated, all these self-made rules don't do anything to improve your squad behaviour. 

If a player is fined unfairly, they may not be upset with you, but it upsets the squad and individual players in the squad. 

If a player is fined unfairly, they may get upset, and it may not have an affect on your squad at all. 

 

Building rules for yourself to go by is fine - it's completely up to you what way you do it. 

I'm just saying, your own rules don't apply, you can't convey this as a squad policy. 

 

It would be great if there was a "Squad Policy>Discipline" and set the rules there. 

For example: 
1st time x 2 yellows = Warning
2nd time x 2yellows = 1 week fine
3rd time x 2 yellows = 2 week fine

etc

That way - if you break your own squad discipline rules, the players getting upset would make sense.

But currently - there is no way to set squad discipline rules. 

 

Again, i know what you're saying. But my way seems to work as well.
I'd argue that my reputation, status with the club and attributes could have an impact as well.

In my journeyman career(s) it's much harder to discipline a player at the beginning of my career - no licences, sunday league rep, very low attributes and no status at all.
Right now i'm in 2050 and i don't have an issue with warning/fining players the way i do it. Of course there is the occassional outburst but that is the same when i'm rejecting bids from bigger clubs and the player concerned isn't happy.
They do not, as you say, have that cumulative context in mind, as they're simply not programmed to be, AFAIK.
Yet, the way i'm doing it improves my squad behaviour. A lot less sending offs and less yellow cards, and hardly any players complaining when they receive a warning/fine. And that's based on my own contextual way of doing it.
Ignoring the lack of cumulative context in the AI players.

[Smurf]

11 minutes ago, roykela said:

Again, i know what you're saying. But my way seems to work as well.
I'd argue that my reputation, status with the club and attributes could have an impact as well.

In my journeyman career(s) it's much harder to discipline a player at the beginning of my career - no licences, sunday league rep, very low attributes and no status at all.
Right now i'm in 2050 and i don't have an issue with warning/fining players the way i do it. Of course there is the occassional outburst but that is the same when i'm rejecting bids from bigger clubs and the player concerned isn't happy.
They do not, as you say, have that cumulative context in mind, as they're simply not programmed to be, AFAIK.
Yet, the way i'm doing it improves my squad behaviour. A lot less sending offs and less yellow cards, and hardly any players complaining when they receive a warning/fine. And that's based on my own contextual way of doing it.
Ignoring the lack of cumulative context in the AI players.

But you said it annoys some players sometimes - you might think it's working - and it might well work ok - but you're still irking some of your players. 

I've done the 2 yellows= fine, 1 red professional foul = 1 week fine, 1 red violent behaviour = 2 week fine - for years, and it works without the annoying of players and unrest in the squad. 

As you say you have an occasional outburts. 

Rejecting bids from clubs - instead of rejecting just ask for a ridiculous amount, or put their transfer value at a ridiculous amount - they might ask for a new contract, but they won't be annoyed. 

You seem to have the knack down for discipline, but I assure you it can fine-tuned a bit bitter. Then again - I don't play FM19 so it's hard to know for sure. But it's been this way since I can remember.

Great you are ignoring the cumlative context of fining players, it literally does nothing but gets the squad/players backs up.

 

[roykela]

Here we have Verdú being booked at 19 minutes. I was not happy with that so i told him to calm down. Eased him off tackles as well.
I really wanted and needed a win here, so it was important to have 11 men on the pitch. I also know that he can lose his head sometimes.
16 minutes later he stupidly goes in with a needlessly hard tackle. Got the 2nd yellow. I was livid.
2 yellow cards, in 16 minutes, first half and after 35 minutes. Not acceptable at all.

I spoke aggressively with him during FT teamtalks ( i didn't say anything at HT. I just ignored him ) and afterwards I fined him a week for it. He was fine. He accepted it.
Him accepting it could be a bug for all i know. But i do know is that it worked, and works for me.
I wouldn't be able to tell you why it works, but for some reason, it works for me in FM19.



Of course they sometimes get annoyed. That's just how it is sometimes. I would find it very unrealistic if they wouldn't be annoyed at times, by disagreeing.
Have had a player that have seemingly tried to kill another player (not literally) wih a reckless tackle. Due to the situation (in my own context) i told him calmly i was disappointed with his sending off.
Then i just warned him. No fine. Did not want to upset him as i needed him for a big game afterwards. Well......
He took that as being unfairly treated. It was only him that had that impression and view. Media, ref, report and my own assistant agreed that it was an awful tackle that deserved a clean red.
Took him a while to get over it and, as a result, massively underperformed in that following big game.

The way you are explaining in how to do it is something i used to do myself for the longest time. I changed that, however, with FM18 (i think. It might also have been FM17).
Personally i didn't want to game it. I wanted to put my own decision-making-mark on the game world and whatever happened, happened.

But i would love for that cumulative, behavioural context to be a thing in FM. As one could potentially have conversations with players that would actually make sense, about situations like these.

[Smurf]

42 minutes ago, roykela said:

I wanted to put my own decision-making-mark on the game world

But you haven't - you fined the player - whereas he may not have been upset - some of the players may have been affected by the decision to fine him for 2 yellow cards. 

You can't put your own decision-making-mark on the game world, because it is not designed that way. 

Telling him to calm down, and ignoring him, and yelling at him may have eased his anger at being fined, I don't know if it has any effect, but it could, I'm open to the possiblity. 

Realistically, what should happen there is the other players should be annoyed at him for being sent off in an important game after being told to calm down and ease off tackling. 

But you don't tell a player to ease off tackling, you move a slider to make his tackling less heavy - which is not the same thing. They may also have a low hidden attribute for "Big Games" or something like that.

But you're not putting your own mark on the game - setting your own rules has no effect within the game, as the game doesn't understand your rules. 

There is no way to set the rules for discipline, they are set already. 

Ok - there are instances where it works ok in fining a player and they don't get upset, but this maybe down to their character traits, and/or your manager rating etc. 

There are other factors. But I don't telling them to calm down and then ignoring them then yelling at them is one of those factors.

[roykela]

But you haven't - you fined the player - whereas he may not have been upset - some of the players may have been affected by the decision to fine him for 2 yellow cards. 
"Whereas he may not have been upset". He wasn't. Other players did not care one way or another.
Fined player accepted. That was it. Nothing more, nothing less.

You can't put your own decision-making-mark on the game world, because it is not designed that way.
I think you might have to elaborate a bit on this. Every single click you/i make is making your mark on the game. Because the click is decided by that particular human player. Another human player could do it differently. AI could do it differently based on how it's programmed.

*Telling him to calm down, and ignoring him, and yelling at him may have eased his anger at being fined, I don't know if it has any effect, but it could, I'm open to the possiblity.
If it eased his anger then my own mark is being put on the game. Because apparently it works/worked. What if i had done nothing?

Realistically, what should happen there is the other players should be annoyed at him for being sent off in an important game after being told to calm down and ease off tackling.
Could be, but that is not what we're discussing here. Realistically there would also be players defending him as well.

But you don't tell a player to ease off tackling, you move a slider to make his tackling less heavy - which is not the same thing. They may also have a low hidden attribute for "Big Games" or something like that.
I don't move a slider. I click a button. Based on my decision-making and analysis of my knowledge of the game, the player (where stuff like low attribute for big games is considered, it's on the coach's player report) etc.

But you're not putting your own mark on the game - setting your own rules has no effect within the game, as the game doesn't understand your rules.
My rules are limited to what can be done within the game. My real life rules...no it would not understand. My rules within the game...it understands. As i'm bound to limit my rules to within the game's rules and boundaries.
That's the framwork we're talking about here.

There is no way to set the rules for discipline, they are set already. 
The rules for discipline might be set. The rules for everything are set. It's how you work within those rules that matters. That's where i set my own rules of discipline - within the game's set rules.

Ok - there are instances where it works ok in fining a player and they don't get upset, but this maybe down to their character traits, and/or your manager rating etc.
Yes, there are instances. It's down to many details. Part of a manager's job is to identify those details, like character traits. It's part of what the game is about.

There are other factors. But I don't telling them to calm down and then ignoring them then yelling at them is one of those factors.
Then what could it be? When all comes down to it; That's what i did and that is what worked.


You're overthinking my entire point, which was:
Your guideline is great, but it's not the be-all end-all. It can be done differently. Here's an example!

That was it.

If you can simplify your point to a short single line, what would it be?
I ask so i can understand and realise your point, in case i'm missing it.