Getting the most out of APs in CAM

[Experienced Defender]

16 hours ago, Arsenal457 said:

with the cover duty, would I want to take offside trap off?

I personally tend to avoid offside trap when my CBs play on different duties. The only exception can be when I play with 3 CBs, with the central one being a stopper and both outer two on defend duty (the combo I use in my Man Utd save).

[Arsenal457]

4 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Another nice talent that could develop into a great striker. But given that you already have too many strikers, I would look to send him on loan to a club with great training facilities and make sure he will be used as a key player there (or at least a first-team regular).

That makes sense. I know you have suggested playing some as AML but I can’t, I already have Iwobi, Paulinho and Saka there, as well as Smith Rowe. Saka is away on loan though.

[Arsenal457]

4 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

I personally tend to avoid offside trap when my CBs play on different duties. The only exception can be when I play with 3 CBs, with the central one being a stopper and both outer two on defend duty (the combo I use in my Man Utd save).

Yeah that was my thoughts, just checking.

[Arsenal457]

On 07/05/2019 at 22:43, Experienced Defender said:

I'll now tell you how I would look to set up my 4231 system if I managed Arsenal with your players. Then I'll try to explain why such a setup.

POat

IFsu         AMsu         APat

DLPde    BBM

 

FBat     CDco     CDde     IWBde

SKde

Which 11 players I would prefer for these roles within the system and what PIs I would give them:

GK/SKde - Leno - take fewer risks 

DL/FBat - Chilwell (Kolasinac) - no PIs

DR/IWBde - Bellerin - no PIs

DCL/CDco - Skriniar - stay wider

DCR/CDde - De Ligt - close down less

MCL/DLPde - Zaniolo - mark tighter, close down less

MCR/BBM - Torreira - mark tighter

AML/IFsu - Paulinho - sit narrower

AMR/APat - Felix - no PIs

AMC/AMsu - Havertz - roam from position, mark tighter

ST/POat - Aubameyang - move into channels, shoot more often

Could you explain the PIs to me? Why do you select those PIs and how do they help the team functions?

[Experienced Defender]

8 hours ago, Arsenal457 said:

Could you explain the PIs to me? Why do you select those PIs and how do they help the team functions?

PIs serve to fine-tune players' behavior that has been generally defined by roles, duties and team instructions (with the mentality affecting all these to various degrees). PIs are not necessary, and a lot of people don't use them, but I like to employ PIs because they can make that small but sometimes decisive difference. And I don't use them for each single player or role, and always take into account players' strengths and weaknesses, as well as their position within the system, the role they play and how their role interact with others. For example, if I want to keep possession, I'll tell players who are not good enough in terms of passing and vision to take fewer risks. Also, when I use a player in the AMC spot. I like to allow him to roam from position regardless of his role, because he's playing in the hole and by being allowed to roam, he is encouraged to search for free spaces, from where he can either create something for others or get himself into a good goal-scoring position (assuming that players who play in AMC are usually creative and technically gifted). 

[Arsenal457]

Would CF(a) work in my tactic? If so, why or why not?

[Experienced Defender]

3 minutes ago, Arsenal457 said:

Would CF(a) work in my tactic? If so, why or why not?

I fear not, especially if you play Aubameyang, because he does not have all the important attributes for a CF role. A CF on support might be a better option, but not sure if you have the right player for the role (maybe Dolberg?). But that would again require some tweaks to other roles. For example:

CFsu

IFsu         AMat         Wat

Of course, these are just the front 4. Other roles, duties and players playing them also need to be set up properly. Plus instructions that would make sense.

[Arsenal457]

14 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

I fear not, especially if you play Aubameyang, because he does not have all the important attributes for a CF role. A CF on support might be a better option, but not sure if you have the right player for the role (maybe Dolberg?). But that would again require some tweaks to other roles. For example:

CFsu

IFsu         AMat         Wat

Of course, these are just the front 4. Other roles, duties and players playing them also need to be set up properly. Plus instructions that would make sense.

Ok, just checking. I’ll share what I’ve come up with for tactical setup as of current, and can you tell me what else I can change? I do want to stick with the CAM as AP.

[Arsenal457]

I know you’ve given some suggestions, but just as a recap while keeping the CAM an AP.

[Experienced Defender]

3 hours ago, Arsenal457 said:

can you tell me what else I can change? I do want to stick with the CAM as AP.

You can stick with the AMC playing as an AP, just allow him to roam from position (player instruction), so that he has freedom to move wherever he sees fit. 

The setup of your front 4 roles and duties is good in this tactic, provided - as always - that you have given the roles to the right players (with suitable attributes). Otherwise, they are likely to struggle. For example, who is Trotta? Can we see a screenshot of his profile? 

As for the two CMs, Guendouzi can play any role in defensive and central midfield, so it's okay. I don't know how good the other guy (Gravenberch) in terms of defending. Because in a 4231 it's vital that both CMs are good at tackling, positioning, anticipation, work rate and teamwork (along with the attacking set of attributes). Guendouzi has all these attributes, but I don't know about Gravenberch. Can you post his screenshot? Because if he is poor defensively, then better don't play him as a CM in a 4231.

Let's now see the back-line. If you want to use a BPD, De Ligt is a good choice, but move him to the left (DCL) so that he would not be on the same side as the DLP. I see that you now play Ozan Kabak as the other CB. Why? Where is Skriniar? You need to know that central defense is the most susceptible to changes of all areas of a team. So it's incredibly important to have two CBs who will play together most of the time. You are constantly making the same kind of mistake - changing players without any rational reason. Don't do that, because it can only aggravate your tactical issues. 

What about fullbacks? WB on support on the left is a good choice of role. On the right though, I fear that WB on attack could be too risky for a 4231. Given that you have a winger on support in AMR, my preference would be an IWB on attack, so that you would have a deep (late) runner who arrives in the final third and can act both as an additional passing option and a latent goal-scoring threat. Another option would be a standard FB on attack duty (rather than WB). If you played Guendouzi and Torreira as the CMs, then having a WB on attack would be less risky, because they are both great at defending and covering the space left behind by an attacking wide defenders. But I am not sure if Gravenberch is that type of midfielder (until I see his profile).

Finally, I see that you are still insisting on Leno as a SK on support (instead of defend), even though his passing is only 10 and vision even worse (7). Playing him as a SK on support might make some sense if you played a counter-attacking style of football, but in this possession-based system, it's more likely to lead to losing the ball needlessly than creating anything meaningful.

Let's now take a look at your team instructions, to see how they fit in with this setup of roles and duties..

Looks good to me. I would only add the Overlap left (to encourage more interplay between Chilwell and Smith-Rowe on the flank in the final third) and remove Pass into space. You already have enough players in the midfield and attack who are hard-coded to pass into space (take more risks) when it makes sense, so there is no reason to make an overkill by encouraging the entire team to do that (especially as it's not likely that opponents will give you a lot of space in the areas where it can be taken advantage of).

And one universal piece of advice: stop changing players so much, both in terms of buying and selling and tactical line-ups.

[Arsenal457]

4 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

You can stick with the AMC playing as an AP, just allow him to roam from position (player instruction), so that he has freedom to move wherever he sees fit. 

The setup of your front 4 roles and duties is good in this tactic, provided - as always - that you have given the roles to the right players (with suitable attributes). Otherwise, they are likely to struggle. For example, who is Trotta? Can we see a screenshot of his profile? 

As for the two CMs, Guendouzi can play any role in defensive and central midfield, so it's okay. I don't know how good the other guy (Gravenberch) in terms of defending. Because in a 4231 it's vital that both CMs are good at tackling, positioning, anticipation, work rate and teamwork (along with the attacking set of attributes). Guendouzi has all these attributes, but I don't know about Gravenberch. Can you post his screenshot? Because if he is poor defensively, then better don't play him as a CM in a 4231.

Let's now see the back-line. If you want to use a BPD, De Ligt is a good choice, but move him to the left (DCL) so that he would not be on the same side as the DLP. I see that you now play Ozan Kabak as the other CB. Why? Where is Skriniar? You need to know that central defense is the most susceptible to changes of all areas of a team. So it's incredibly important to have two CBs who will play together most of the time. You are constantly making the same kind of mistake - changing players without any rational reason. Don't do that, because it can only aggravate your tactical issues. 

What about fullbacks? WB on support on the left is a good choice of role. On the right though, I fear that WB on attack could be too risky for a 4231. Given that you have a winger on support in AMR, my preference would be an IWB on attack, so that you would have a deep (late) runner who arrives in the final third and can act both as an additional passing option and a latent goal-scoring threat. Another option would be a standard FB on attack duty (rather than WB). If you played Guendouzi and Torreira as the CMs, then having a WB on attack would be less risky, because they are both great at defending and covering the space left behind by an attacking wide defenders. But I am not sure if Gravenberch is that type of midfielder (until I see his profile).

Finally, I see that you are still insisting on Leno as a SK on support (instead of defend), even though his passing is only 10 and vision even worse (7). Playing him as a SK on support might make some sense if you played a counter-attacking style of football, but in this possession-based system, it's more likely to lead to losing the ball needlessly than creating anything meaningful.

Let's now take a look at your team instructions, to see how they fit in with this setup of roles and duties..

Looks good to me. I would only add the Overlap left (to encourage more interplay between Chilwell and Smith-Rowe on the flank in the final third) and remove Pass into space. You already have enough players in the midfield and attack who are hard-coded to pass into space (take more risks) when it makes sense, so there is no reason to make an overkill by encouraging the entire team to do that (especially as it's not likely that opponents will give you a lot of space in the areas where it can be taken advantage of).

And one universal piece of advice: stop changing players so much, both in terms of buying and selling and tactical line-ups.

I tend to rotate Skriniar and Vallejo, and De Ligt and Ozan so they get game time. That wasn’t my best team I put out, I’ve shard what team I’d put out if I had a tough or important match. Would a WB(s) with sit narrower PI work? And yes, I’ll change Leno now, and remove pass into space.

[Experienced Defender]

14 minutes ago, Arsenal457 said:

Would a WB(s) with sit narrower PI work?

Where? On the left or on the right? Anything will work if it's logically incorporated in the system. As I've told you many times, don't look at tactical settings in isolation. 

An example: if I play a WB on support (or FB on support) on the flank where I have a winger (role), I'll probably tell him to sit narrower, because the winger is already hard-coded to stay wider, so I want to avoid too much isolation on the wing. 

And btw, that's one more reason for not using a WB on attack on the same side as a winger - both are hard-coded to stay wide - as well as cross often - neither of which suits the possession style you want to play. So if you use a winger on support in AMR and DLP on defend in MCR, there are 3 good/decent options for the right back role that I would suggest considering:

- IWB on attack

- WB on support with "Sit narrower" PI

- FB on support with "Sit narrower"" and "Get further forward" PIs

[Arsenal457]

5 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Where? On the left or on the right? Anything will work if it's logically incorporated in the system. As I've told you many times, don't look at tactical settings in isolation. 

An example: if I play a WB on support (or FB on support) on the flank where I have a winger (role), I'll probably tell him to sit narrower, because the winger is already hard-coded to stay wider, so I want to avoid too much isolation on the wing. 

And btw, that's one more reason for not using a WB on attack on the same side as a winger - both are hard-coded to stay wide - as well as cross often - neither of which suits the possession style you want to play. So if you use a winger on support in AMR and DLP on defend in MCR, there are 3 good/decent options for the right back role that I would suggest considering:

- IWB on attack

- WB on support with "Sit narrower" PI

- FB on support with "Sit narrower"" and "Get further forward" PIs

On WB(a) on the right.

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Arsenal457 said:

On WB(a) on the right.

Your question was about WBsupport, not attack. WB on attack cannot be told to sit narrower anyway. because he is hard-coded to stay wider.

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, Arsenal457 said:

This guy is too bad to play for a team like Arsenal. Maybe he will develop into a good player one day, but I currently would not play him even in a lot weaker EPL team than Arsenal.

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, Arsenal457 said:

This one can play in the AMC position, but does not have attributes to play as a CM in a 4231. Look at his tackling, positioning and bravery - they are all below 10. He could play in a 4141DM WIde as the more attacking of the 2 CMs, but in a 4231 he is a great liability. He simply cannot defend.

If you want to use a certain formation, you need to have a certain type of players. You cannot just put anyone in any position that they theoretically can play.

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, Arsenal457 said:

And what's this? A new tactic again. And not only the tactic (i.e. setup of roles/duties) but also the almost entire 11 players are changed.

With this approach to the game, I fear that you will continue to struggle even with the best tactic in the world. You needlessly bought too many players - most of which are even not better than those they've replaced - and now you want to somehow let all them play as much as possible. But that's hardly going to work. New players need some time to adapt and gel with the squad. And if there are too many of them - as in your case - it makes things even worse. Plus, for tactical familiarity, it's important that you don't make big changes in player selection from game to game. Of course you'll sometimes need to rotate, but just a couple of players (3-4 at most), not the entire starting 11.

[Arsenal457]

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

This guy is too bad to play for a team like Arsenal. Maybe he will develop into a good player one day, but I currently would not play him even in a lot weaker EPL team than Arsenal.

He was the regen with the best potential that I could see, signed from Milan. 5 Star potential.

[Arsenal457]

56 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

And what's this? A new tactic again. And not only the tactic (i.e. setup of roles/duties) but also the almost entire 11 players are changed.

With this approach to the game, I fear that you will continue to struggle even with the best tactic in the world. You needlessly bought too many players - most of which are even not better than those they've replaced - and now you want to somehow let all them play as much as possible. But that's hardly going to work. New players need some time to adapt and gel with the squad. And if there are too many of them - as in your case - it makes things even worse. Plus, for tactical familiarity, it's important that you don't make big changes in player selection from game to game. Of course you'll sometimes need to rotate, but just a couple of players (3-4 at most), not the entire starting 11.

The two different ones you saw were my weakest and best XI. I used the weakest for easy games in the Europa League to pick up experience as they are all very young. The other one is my best XI and I often keep a lot of those players in the team.

[yann]

Le 07/05/2019 à 14:43, Experienced Defender a dit :

I'll now tell you how I would look to set up my 4231 system if I managed Arsenal with your players. Then I'll try to explain why such a setup.

POat

IFsu         AMsu         APat

DLPde    BBM

 

FBat     CDco     CDde     IWBde

SKde

Which 11 players I would prefer for these roles within the system and what PIs I would give them:

GK/SKde - Leno - take fewer risks 

DL/FBat - Chilwell (Kolasinac) - no PIs

DR/IWBde - Bellerin - no PIs

DCL/CDco - Skriniar - stay wider

DCR/CDde - De Ligt - close down less

MCL/DLPde - Zaniolo - mark tighter, close down less

MCR/BBM - Torreira - mark tighter

AML/IFsu - Paulinho - sit narrower

AMR/APat - Felix - no PIs

AMC/AMsu - Havertz - roam from position, mark tighter

ST/POat - Aubameyang - move into channels, shoot more often

What team instructions I would start an average match with:

Mentality - Positive

In possession - shorter passing, play out of defence, work ball into box, be more expressive, whipped crosses, overlap right (optional/occasional instruction - higher tempo)

In transition - counter, roll it out, distribute to CBs and FBs, counter-press (but not against strong teams)

Out of possession - higher d-line, standard LOE, default pressing, use tighter marking, prevent short GKD

*   *   *

Now let me explain what's the idea...

You have a very talented squad with a lot of creativity and flair both in the midfield and up front, so you just need to think logically about how you can set them up within the system in order to get the best out of them. To do that, you need to be able to think outside the box. If you look carefully at your players' attributes, traits and stronger foot, you can easily get the idea of which set of roles each of them could generally play in a satisfactory way. The next step is to understand how these roles interact with each other, and then how you can make the most of that interaction via proper team and player instructions. Once you have sorted all this out, you have what I like to call a "primary/basic/starting tactic". That's the tactic that you can comfortably start most of your matches with, and then see if any small tweaks are needed or not.

On the defensive side, you always need to bear in mind that 4231 is a top-heavy system with nobody in a DM position, which inherently tends to make your defense potentially vulnerable. That's why I gave the cover duty to Scriniar as the more experienced and defensively solid of the two CBs, and why I opted to play Bellerin on defend rather than support duty, but with the Overlap right TI that will make him a bit more attack-minded so that he can link up with the midfield and provide more meaningful support in the final third when needed. He also needs to cover for the BBM on occasion.

On the other flank, the attacking fullback is there to make natural overlaps and cross the ball into the box for the poacher who has great speed, movement and very good anticipation, as well as others who will arrive from deeper areas to attack the ball in and around the box. A top-heavy formation coupled with a high-risk mentality allows you to play with relatively few attack duties (3 in this case) and still have sufficient penetration.

If you have any questions, you are welcome 

 

Simple and effective, as usual with you.

You are my Guru !

[Arsenal457]

I guess I'm back here on this now dead feed, because the other one that got closed for advanced forwards was no good. Just because I said I'm going back to 4231 didn't mean I didn't still need help with my striker. And you know, because the new people to get an opinion off was no good either.

[herne79]

16 minutes ago, Arsenal457 said:

I guess I'm back here on this now dead feed, because the other one that got closed for advanced forwards was no good. Just because I said I'm going back to 4231 didn't mean I didn't still need help with my striker. And you know, because the new people to get an opinion off was no good either.

This is not a dead feed, the last post was 4 days ago when you decided to necro a 2 year old thread.  It's only "dead" because you stopped posting here.

There is plenty of useful information in this thread to help you improve your 4231.  It isn't just about your attacking midfielder or just your striker, everything combines together which is what the advice given to you has been about.  Keeping all the advice together in one place (ie this thread) helps not only you keep track of things but also the people trying to help you out.  One thread is much easier for others to track through rather than trying to ping around between different threads and follow your train of thought in different places.

I appreciate you may be frustrated but please try to remain constructive and provide as much detail as you can about your issues in order for people to help you.

[Arsenal457]

9 minutes ago, herne79 said:

This is not a dead feed, the last post was 4 days ago when you decided to necro a 2 year old thread.  It's only "dead" because you stopped posting here.

There is plenty of useful information in this thread to help you improve your 4231.  It isn't just about your attacking midfielder or just your striker, everything combines together which is what the advice given to you has been about.  Keeping all the advice together in one place (ie this thread) helps not only you keep track of things but also the people trying to help you out.  One thread is much easier for others to track through rather than trying to ping around between different threads and follow your train of thought in different places.

I appreciate you may be frustrated but please try to remain constructive and provide as much detail as you can about your issues in order for people to help you.

It might have been a necro feed, but I got a response on a still relevant subject from different people I hadn't got views from. Chances are they won't find this feed and be able comment. I start different feeds or comment on different ones is because I get more variety in opinions, ideas, and explanations. 

[herne79]

25 minutes ago, Arsenal457 said:

It might have been a necro feed, but I got a response on a still relevant subject from different people I hadn't got views from. Chances are they won't find this feed and be able comment. I start different feeds or comment on different ones is because I get more variety in opinions, ideas, and explanations. 

True that can happen.

But when you have responses concerning a 433 in a different thread, decide you want to revert back to a 4231 and you already have a great thread with good responses about the 4231, it's a good idea to continue with all of that good advice rather than starting from scratch again.  People will quickly lose interest in offering you advice if they feel like they're repeating themselves in multiple threads on the same topic.  I've seen it happen, I'm trying to help you.

Now, we can play this response ping pong all you like (we actually won't because I won't say anything more now) or you can constructively post about your issues and hopefully continue to get some ideas.