What went...right?

[Bunkerossian]

I've probably annoyed people in this forum a ton with my search of the causes of my innumerable tactical failures. As hopefully, the day of me getting FM 18 nears, I had decided to revisit my only save that looked good, and do Ingolstadt, this time on the 17.3. DB. The result is astonishing. Instead of the predicted relegation battle, I finished 6th!! Somehow, I reaped success, but I'm looking for answers from those more knowledgeable: was this about my tactics, or the players?

Players

Overall, Ingolstadt's roster is different to all the teams I've tried out thus far. The players are uniformly geared towards aggressive, hard-hitting football. The squad is loaded with Defensive Wingers and Forwards. There's not much styles this team can work with.

Strengths of the team: Work Rate, Teamwork, Aggression, Bravery, Stamina, Tackling, Quickness

Weaknesses: every other Mental attribute, Passing, Technique, Finishing, Dribbling.

Lukas Hinterseer and Stefan Lex are the prime examples of a typical Ingolstadt player.

Thus, when I first took the club, I picked roles and instructions that focused around frantic running, expedient tackling. Obviously, there were cases where the higher line or the pressing would be reduced (fast strikers or simply world-class players), and I believe that without the added intelligence of Luca Caldirola and Simao Maté, I would not have done so well. There was one huge problem I noticed though: despite the Much Higher Tempo, frequently players would be slow to get rid of the ball, taking too much time to make a decision, which would end up in them being tackled. Anyone know a possible cause?

Tactics

They are attached to the post, but there is a regularly used variation of each: I would put the RB to a DFB, and the RM to a Winger. The reason was a player at the club who looked like a solid defensive FB. His ratings were subpar after some time, but a loanee ended up being used there with success more than at the intended CB position, so this variation was used almost as much as the tactic directly displayed in the screenshot.

The main GK had a shortened range of passing and was told to Roll it Out, as his distribution stats are very bad.

The entire back line had PI-s Tackle Harder and Mark Tighter. A CB I signed was assigned the Central Defender role, as opposed to the usual DCB, due to his excellent mentals.

The WM position on the left had various instructions, but over the course of the season, 3 were consistently used: Shoot Less Often, Less Risky Passes and Get Further Forward. For difficult games, I changed the role to a Defensive Winger, often with great success defensively.

The BWM in the middle was a consequence of having 3 good players who fit that role, but nothing more offensive. In fact, I had signed a 4. BWM on a free transfer due to his immense ability, and the fact that one of those other 3 was leaving on a free transfer after the first season goes by - a difference from the initial DB. I did get a loanee, and a converted DLP to play a BBM instead of the BWM successfully, when I wanted more attack options. Since none of the players used there were good long range shooters, the PI Shoot Less Often was used.

The CM-A was usually Pascal Groß, my star offensive player. Dribble Less and More Risky Passes were the instructions for him (bad dribbler). He didn't play all that great, until the last few games in the season. Any clues as to why?

Attack was the trickiest part. Initial tinkering between Complete Forward and Defensive Forward was settled in favor of the latter role, after the forward which was seemingly better overall, was sold. None of the 3 strikers at the club initially, have convincing goalscoring attributes. I left the 1-striker formation with a DF until the end. The instruction typically used was again: Shoot Less Often.

To give myself better options up front, I loaned in an Argentinian forward, whom I later found out to be considered a big talent. But Lautaro Martinez never did much (scored a total of 4 goals), not even when paired with someone. January saw the loaning of a bit of a legend: Eduardo da Silva, and the signing of what I hoped to be an upgrade on my Def. Forward who couldn't be truly prolific- I brought in Wout Weghorst. In the end, the seemingly hopeless Lukas Hinterseer went on a rampage, and scored in 7-8 consecutive games. Da Silva never did what I hoped for (creativity and/or scoring), sadly. I used him in a pairing with Hinterseer, as a Trequartista, False 9, Advanced Forward and even a Poacher.

I still have no idea how to set up a front 2 with what I have: a DF/TM will most likely always be present, since that is what Weghorst and Hinterseer are. Suggestions?

Future

I've got my club to the EL qualifying spot. No doubt I will not be treated as a mere underdog by the CPU any more. I have to wonder, how can my tactics progress? Also, another issue will be the likely loss of my star CB, Marcel Tisserand. He has insane 14 Acceleration, and Anticipation, meaning he can intercept fast attackers so well. Also, he is great at Jumping. The loss of a fast CB will necessitate the change of some things, but I'm not sure what to do.

[Dr. Hook]

25 minutes ago, Bunkerossian said:

I've probably annoyed people in this forum a ton with my search of the causes of my innumerable tactical failures. 

Quite the opposite actually- this is what this forum is all about 

[Bunkerossian]

54 minutes ago, Dr. Hook said:

Quite the opposite actually- this is what this forum is all about 

Ok, Still, I'm not sure what was the cause of all the positive things that had occurred in the save thus far, or of those negatives in the red bold.

[Dr. Hook]

5 hours ago, Bunkerossian said:

Ok, Still, I'm not sure what was the cause of all the positive things that had occurred in the save thus far, or of those negatives in the red bold.

I had to head out in a hurry so I didn't get to finish my thought, but I think a) you've prized or had good attributes in key areas b) your team was not expected to be good. On the second point, you can often see teams, even after you've started o do well, play you like the team you're expected to be and that means they are going to take more chances, giving you space. Your team works hard, works together, gets stuck in and can play 90 without stopping. I have found that with a solid tactic, nothing miracle-working, if you can get a team put together that can do those things, success follows. I guess that's all to say I am not surprised you did well.

As for the dwelling on the ball, I'll let you know if I ever solve it. Sometimes no matter what I do, it happens, and I had a conversation with a colleague about that very thing just a few days ago. Typically I've had it down to not having good options available quickly enough, but even then, it still happens at times. 

[summatsupeer]

7 hours ago, Bunkerossian said:

frequently players would be slow to get rid of the ball, taking too much time to make a decision, which would end up in them being tackled

There could be lots of reasons, have the actually got the ball under control to do something with?  Are they very one footed?  Can they see any options?  Have they been closed down so can't just take a big swing at it and lack composure to do the smart thing? There's probably more situations/attributes to.

7 hours ago, Bunkerossian said:

The CM-A was usually Pascal Groß, my star offensive player. Dribble Less and More Risky Passes were the instructions for him (bad dribbler). He didn't play all that great, until the last few games in the season. Any clues as to why?

Your only attack duty (in that formation) was the CM-A and the player outside of him sometimes was instructed to play Less Risky Passes and the player beside him is a BWM and the forward a DF.  Who's going to create for the CM-A and who is the CM-A going to play risky passes to except the wide players?  You have a DM + BWM who do similar things, though you mention you might use a BBM which could be a good runner option if you want the CM-A to be more of a creator instead of runner+creator.

I'm going to guess most of your goals came from counter attacks or crosses?

7 hours ago, Bunkerossian said:

I still have no idea how to set up a front 2 with what I have: a DF/TM will most likely always be present, since that is what Weghorst and Hinterseer are. Suggestions?

Well the easiest option is have the DF/TM as the support forward then depending what you have available pair him with a runner.  Poacher or AF are the typical option, keep your DNA with good work rate etc so he chases everything, if your DF is a decent AF he could play it with the TM.  The other option is to have a AMC so the runner is coming from deeper instead of on the shoulder, this player can help the central midfielders more defensively before he gets forward.

[Bunkerossian]

7 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

There could be lots of reasons, have the actually got the ball under control to do something with?  Are they very one footed?  Can they see any options?  Have they been closed down so can't just take a big swing at it and lack composure to do the smart thing? There's probably more situations/attributes to.

Your only attack duty (in that formation) was the CM-A and the player outside of him sometimes was instructed to play Less Risky Passes and the player beside him is a BWM and the forward a DF.  Who's going to create for the CM-A and who is the CM-A going to play risky passes to except the wide players?  You have a DM + BWM who do similar things, though you mention you might use a BBM which could be a good runner option if you want the CM-A to be more of a creator instead of runner+creator.

I'm going to guess most of your goals came from counter attacks or crosses?

Well the easiest option is have the DF/TM as the support forward then depending what you have available pair him with a runner.  Poacher or AF are the typical option, keep your DNA with good work rate etc so he chases everything, if your DF is a decent AF he could play it with the TM.  The other option is to have a AMC so the runner is coming from deeper instead of on the shoulder, this player can help the central midfielders more defensively before he gets forward.

The player would have the ball under control. I don't remember any of my midfielders to be extremely one-footed. I can see options, maybe they can't? One player does always go at the man in possession, that is why the ball is lost. Composure is lacking, yes. But I'd still want the players to do something and anything, rather than passively wait for themselves to be robbed. Even booting the ball upfield is fine, as it will buy time for the defensive shape to reform.

The CM-A has indeed a big burden, I admit. He is supposed to go support the DF, set-up everyone he can, and rely on his excellent mentals to get the job done. I've tried setting him as an AP sometimes, together with a BBM. Nothing spectacular happened. Yes, my goals are as you described, but also: through balls by the DF (!!), to the onrushing midfielder or winger to set up a 1-on-1. Assuming I play a BBM who can score, that is. My BWM-s can't really finish.

Yes, Weghorst could be used as an AF technically. This gives a slow, hard-working, super-tall strike force. I also have a returnee from loan, who is a fast DF, which, I suppose, is slightly different to the first 2. Is there a way to make a more creative forward work? In a 2 striker system, I might not always play my main MF creator. Despite his Aggression, Work rate and Teamwork, Groß isn't really a BBM- the best he can do is maybe a RPM. He is slow, and has poor Dribbling.

[Bunkerossian]

9 hours ago, Dr. Hook said:

I had to head out in a hurry so I didn't get to finish my thought, but I think a) you've prized or had good attributes in key areas b) your team was not expected to be good. On the second point, you can often see teams, even after you've started o do well, play you like the team you're expected to be and that means they are going to take more chances, giving you space. Your team works hard, works together, gets stuck in and can play 90 without stopping. I have found that with a solid tactic, nothing miracle-working, if you can get a team put together that can do those things, success follows. I guess that's all to say I am not surprised you did well.

As for the dwelling on the ball, I'll let you know if I ever solve it. Sometimes no matter what I do, it happens, and I had a conversation with a colleague about that very thing just a few days ago. Typically I've had it down to not having good options available quickly enough, but even then, it still happens at times. 

So, you deem my tactics solid, without major flaws? If I got the role mix fairly well, that's a good sign.

My best player on paper, and I might lose him, too. The fact is, not many playmakers have good Work Rate and Teamwork.

[summatsupeer]

2 hours ago, Bunkerossian said:

The player would have the ball under control. I don't remember any of my midfielders to be extremely one-footed. I can see options, maybe they can't? One player does always go at the man in possession, that is why the ball is lost. Composure is lacking, yes. But I'd still want the players to do something and anything, rather than passively wait for themselves to be robbed. Even booting the ball upfield is fine, as it will buy time for the defensive shape to reform.

The CM-A has indeed a big burden, I admit. He is supposed to go support the DF, set-up everyone he can, and rely on his excellent mentals to get the job done. I've tried setting him as an AP sometimes, together with a BBM. Nothing spectacular happened. Yes, my goals are as you described, but also: through balls by the DF (!!), to the onrushing midfielder or winger to set up a 1-on-1. Assuming I play a BBM who can score, that is. My BWM-s can't really finish.

Yes, Weghorst could be used as an AF technically. This gives a slow, hard-working, super-tall strike force. I also have a returnee from loan, who is a fast DF, which, I suppose, is slightly different to the first 2. Is there a way to make a more creative forward work? In a 2 striker system, I might not always play my main MF creator. Despite his Aggression, Work rate and Teamwork, Groß isn't really a BBM- the best he can do is maybe a RPM. He is slow, and has poor Dribbling.

I think the CM-A might not do anything spectacular because of what is around him, everyone else is quite a "safe" role and duty on a lower team mentality.  If his main job is to get up and support the line forward does he need to look for risky passes often? Plus I'd value physical attributes and the will to get up and down more than being smart (within reason for the role). What if you had the smart "creator" play a deeper role and get the better physical players bwm+bbm(maybe mez?) to be the legs in midfield?  Especially if he's slow.

Of course a creative forward can work, but he needs players to create for. Not just the right roles+duties but the right players who are going to find space and burst past opponents.  I would replace the support duty forward with the creator, DLF/F9/CF and pair him with the AF/P.  You could add PI so he/they pressure opponents similar to a DF.  You could have two support forwards, its more a possession thing as both link instead of looking to immediately get behind but as your midfield is quite low risk when they don't counter attack this could work to.

[Bunkerossian]

18 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

I think the CM-A might not do anything spectacular because of what is around him, everyone else is quite a "safe" role and duty on a lower team mentality.  If his main job is to get up and support the line forward does he need to look for risky passes often? Plus I'd value physical attributes and the will to get up and down more than being smart (within reason for the role). What if you had the smart "creator" play a deeper role and get the better physical players bwm+bbm(maybe mez?) to be the legs in midfield?  Especially if he's slow.

Of course a creative forward can work, but he needs players to create for. Not just the right roles+duties but the right players who are going to find space and burst past opponents.  I would replace the support duty forward with the creator, DLF/F9/CF and pair him with the AF/P.  You could add PI so he/they pressure opponents similar to a DF.  You could have two support forwards, its more a possession thing as both link instead of looking to immediately get behind but as your midfield is quite low risk when they don't counter attack this could work to.

This is on FM 17, so no Mezz' ala role. I could theoretically place Groß as a DLP in the DM slot, but this means I now have to shift my excellent DM-D up forward. Of course, I had tried the DM-D/AP-S(and occasionally Attack duty)/ BBM midfield triangle before, but it didn't do better than the variant with the CM-A. Would a DLP-S instead of the AP-S work better?

How defensively weak or solid is the 4-4-1-1 formation? I am thinking of it, because I might need to accomodate a creator further up the pitch to offset the negative effects of a likely lower Work Rate of a replacement for Groß. Role wise, it would have at least one Winger, a CM-D, and a BBM in midfield. There might be either a WM or a DW on the other flank.

[summatsupeer]

I find a lot of DM-D players make good CM-D.  I think the issue with using a AP in a 4141 type formation is he's going to drop deep to collect the ball then look to play forward through balls if he sees a opportunity, but who gets in advance of him?  A DLP is more patient and might fit if you don't have players taking risks and driving forward.

I really like 4411 especially compared to 4231 wide.  A midfield pair like CM-D and BWM-S who are aware, quick and physical can dominate midfield.  Could use a DLP role but I wouldn't use a defensively weak player in that pair.

I think the key thing is to make sure you keep your hard working defensive grit that either shields a deep creator or covers a more advanced playmaker.  Then you need to balance this midfield trio with your style and the rest of the team to make sure your forward isn't isolated.  The balance of player attributes is probably the most important part when building on what you have, you can tweak tactics to move players around but they will always be constrained to there attributes.

[Bunkerossian]

19 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

I find a lot of DM-D players make good CM-D.  I think the issue with using a AP in a 4141 type formation is he's going to drop deep to collect the ball then look to play forward through balls if he sees a opportunity, but who gets in advance of him?  A DLP is more patient and might fit if you don't have players taking risks and driving forward.

I really like 4411 especially compared to 4231 wide.  A midfield pair like CM-D and BWM-S who are aware, quick and physical can dominate midfield.  Could use a DLP role but I wouldn't use a defensively weak player in that pair.

I think the key thing is to make sure you keep your hard working defensive grit that either shields a deep creator or covers a more advanced playmaker.  Then you need to balance this midfield trio with your style and the rest of the team to make sure your forward isn't isolated.  The balance of player attributes is probably the most important part when building on what you have, you can tweak tactics to move players around but they will always be constrained to there attributes.

So, it would be OK to forgo the team DNA in the wide MF positions? I'm in trouble, because of Europa League homegrown rules, the holes that are, or will be present in my squad (players wanting to move on, or simply having had only loanees last season), make it hard to reshape my squad.

[Bunkerossian]

Sorry to have to bump this topic, but I need a post-mortem.

The second season was a disaster, and I went into a deathspiral. What I'm asking of people here, is to tell me, if a midfield triangle of DM-D/DLP-S/BBM has a major flaw that the original variant (DM-D/CM-At/BWM-S) didn't have? Another change was the left midfielder, which was in the 2. season often a Winger-Support. However, the player in question was a new signing, and performed fairly well. Is there a problem with the central midfield that I might not have foreseen?

[NabsKebabs]

9 hours ago, Bunkerossian said:

Sorry to have to bump this topic, but I need a post-mortem.

The second season was a disaster, and I went into a deathspiral. What I'm asking of people here, is to tell me, if a midfield triangle of DM-D/DLP-S/BBM has a major flaw that the original variant (DM-D/CM-At/BWM-S) didn't have? Another change was the left midfielder, which was in the 2. season often a Winger-Support. However, the player in question was a new signing, and performed fairly well. Is there a problem with the central midfield that I might not have foreseen?

It could possibly be that striker is too isolated in the set up?

CM(attack) would be quicker to support the striker then box to box as that's a support duty. Also the BWM role would offer more support than the DLP. 

Does your striker have a lot of strength? Because he needs a lot to actually hold up the ball and wait for support. 

[Bunkerossian]

4 hours ago, NabsKebabs said:

It could possibly be that striker is too isolated in the set up?

CM(attack) would be quicker to support the striker then box to box as that's a support duty. Also the BWM role would offer more support than the DLP. 

Does your striker have a lot of strength? Because he needs a lot to actually hold up the ball and wait for support. 

Two of them do, yes, they are Target Men/Defensive Forwards. The last one is a fast DF with a lot of Stamina. Does an AP-At offer more support? The player I used as a CM-At and this DLP are pretty similar in terms of attributes. Hard-working, but creative, and can do set pieces.