Bayern 4-1-4-1

[xantheose]

Okay so I'm pretty excited by Bayern's 4-1-4-1 implemented by Guardiola and I'm trying to emulate the tactic in my future Championship save. I've got a few questions though before testing the tactic. I have read on a few sources pasted on this forum, about Guardiola's 4-1-4-1. Things I kept in mind is that wingers are dropping deep when defending to decrease the space between them and the fullbacks, also this works efficiently, with no energy waste for overlapings. If I set my wingers on AML/AMR, there's no viable role for wide players to drop deep and help defence as well as tightening the gap between them and complementary fullbacks. Therefore, as much as I hate to use someone's tactical instructions (in a stickied thread), I have to put wingers on Wide Midfielders role.

My #1 question is if is overlapping automatically done in this case (the defender is set on WB (S/A)) or I need to add the team instruction "Look for overlap".

#2, having a midfield of four such as WM - DLP - AP - WM would also automatically retain possession or do I need to add it in Team Instructions?

#3, I am confused about the defensive midfielder role. I saw Guardiola used Schweinsteiger as defensive midfielder to drop deep and grab the ball from the keeper so he can use his creative skills to start an attack. If I make DLP on DM, then I would have an Advanced Playmaker in CM and a CM (D) to pair him with? Or should I stick to the HB (D) on DM and DLP (S) - AP (A) in CM to offer more protection to my back four?

#4, are Bayern mixing their passing style or are they in general passing short?

#5, their width is narrow or wide? And how does this affect the gameplay of this formation, could you give me an example to understand more efficiently?

#6, any of the CB are more of a stopper or are they both sitting in the same line? I believe the defensive line is pretty high. Are they doing high pressing on the pitch a la Borussia Dortmund?

#7, do they use a high tempo or low one?

#8, how can I set the Wide Midfielders to get inside in attacking third, through Player Instructions and Prefered Moves?

#9, how is the Halfback that I intended to use, working in attacking phase? Is he involved in the creation?

#10, their striker is a deep lying forward, defensive forward or a complete forward (Lewandowski, I mean). How can I link him up with the midfield?

I hope you can read and give advices, thanks in advance.

[xantheose]

Edited the lay-out, would still need help for these questions.

[Cleon]

1 - It will happen automatically depending on how close they actually play together. If they are near and you've set them up with the right sort of instructions then yes it will happen automatic.

2 - Adding retain possession is just an extreme. Any shape and system can naturally retain possession but this all lies with the roles and team instructions you actually use.

3 - It all depends. You need to see the tactic play out and see how it works. Those roles can work but depending on the players you have and what not then it depends on how they play out the instructions you've set. Only you can really figure this bit out as you'll have to view games and see if its too conservative or not. Guardiola changes it based on what he expects from the opposition. So just like in FM it can work but is dependant on the opposition.

4 - They play short but do mix it up at times like almost every club does. No set side ever plays one type of passing style unless you was a Stoke fan under Pulis

5 - Width only comes into play when attacking and not when defending. When defending defenders naturally come narrower anyway. Bayern play different kinds of width and actually use the pitch. Sometimes they might be narrow and compact then other times out wide using the touch line etc

6 - Watch some of their games and see?

7 - Again its mixed

8 - Get further forward, sit narrower are a good start.

9 - If the player has the right attributes he'll always be a creator of some kind regardless of his settings. If you're expecting him to join in attacks though and get assists or anything along those lines then the halfback isn't the role you want.

10 - Well he needs roles that help him play the role you choose. So he needs people running from midfield either from the centre or wings (both would be ideal though) and players actually capable of getting the ball to them.

You mention you read a sticky, I guess it was mine you read? As that was based on Bayern and provided lots of information on how to get this system to work. It also provided external links to sites that talk about the tactic in the real world too;

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/377489-Creating-A-Tactic-Design-Create-and-Maintain

[xantheose]

Thank you for taking your time to answer all of my questions. Yeah I have looked upon your guide and also read the real life analysis of Guardiola's 4-1-4-1. I came up with the questions after some parts of strategy were contradicting each other in one guide with another guide. But I believe the changes were based on the opposition and tactical experiments.

Regarding questions 3 and 4, on what should I base my passing style and width when creating the tactic, what to look up to?

[mutor1950]

Ive been messing up with this for a last few days and I think I figured out how I want to set up my team. I also read Cleons text about this tactic and I dont agree with most of the things, but maybe he didnt want to recreate the exact tactic but to create tactic inspired by that. After watching some games my opinion is that the team shape needs to be very fluid. Bayern players arent allowed to relay on improvisation and expressiveness which this team shape encourages. Even though, the reason why I think this is the right decision is the defensive line in the build up phase, they are stepping up in the midfield and very fluid does exactly that. Also very fluid encourages mobility and maybe some position swapping and I love that to. For mentality Im also quite sure, it should be counter. Its, not uncommon that Bayern defender plays a direct pass, or a long ball, passing of central defenders is the most direct on whole pitch I think. Passing of others is short and most of the times the ball goes backwards from advanced positions. I think counter is the right choice here. these are the things Im sure about, now, when we talk about player roles I have some concerns. For Xabi Alonso role I decided to use HB, he often goes in between two defenders in build up and I like how this role went in FM. Side defenders are Inverted wingbacks, they step inside of the field and with HB and central defenders they are the main players in buid up play. One central midfielder shifts up and down the field, for me, its B2B. Striker needs to be on support, in defence his closing down is very high and in attack he moves into channels but also rarely plays risky passes. My choice here is to experiment with DF(S) and put him move into channels PI. Muller is when I ask my self is this or not 4-1-4-1. He is making a lot runs from deep, most of the times he is the most advanced player on the field. He also rarely plays with the ball, he rarely plays through balls and dribble. I think this is impossible to implement from CM strata. I tried AM(a), and I was happy with he played in attack but then how to make him run in defence, specific mark instruction on opponents MC? And now which is the hardest to implement in FM is side midfielders. They are playing high up the field, in line with Muller and Lewa, they are very wide and almost never participating in the game. They are here to stretch opponent and give width to the team and run into space or into the box when cross is played from another side. Their passing is conservative, they do not cross a lot. I really dont know how to implement this role, I was trying with WM(s) and gave them PIs: stay wider, get further forward, dribble less. In defence this was good but then in the attack they were most of the times too deep. Then I tried WTM(a) role which was not bad in attack, it was closest to Bayerns play but in the defence, its better not to talk. I want your opinion on this and sorry for my bad English.

[James9]

I am running two saves at the moment with my Arsenal Team. One of my saves I use a 4231 wide and the other save is a 4141. At the moment I am like the 4141 shape more. I have also read Cleon's Bayern thread and found it very helpful. Cleon seems to be fan of the 4141 because how easy he can make the shape morph into different formations Inhave not got that good at the game yet. I am also a little stuck on how to get the wide players in the 4141 to contribute more to the attack. Gaurdiola seems to like playing wide men who stretch the opponent and make the field wider but these wide men also can score goals. This is very hard to set up in FM 16 so if anyone got some advice then please let me know.

Gaurdiola also plays with Vidal who is like a box to box midfielder helping out in attack and defence so that is a role that I need to try and create.

For my Arsenal save I have gone for the following set up because I think this is how Pep has his midfield

Half Back - Defend - Alonso role

Roaming Playmaker - Alacantra role - I have Ozil playing this role for my Arsenal team.

Box to Box Mudfielder - Vidal role

I am happy to hear from anyone who can advice further on the roles Pep has in place.

Another think is what role would you guys say Lew plays for Bayern.

The main think is trying to get those wide players roles and duty correct do any advice and info would be helpful.

[LordFunk]

The Alonso (DM) role is either a halfback, when the opponent is marking him to prevent his build or if the opponent is pressing in a very aggressive manner (e.g. CL semi-final, first round ). Most of the time he's acting as a DLP-D, sometimes even as DLP-S, when more men / passing options are needed upfront.

The Vidal role (CM) is defently box2box player. The other CM/AM role is a bit more tricky to define, it depends who plays in this slot and who plays on the offensive and defensive wings and how they are setted up. In my formations, i choosed a CM, which is modified with D/S/A duties and PIs as needed in the situation. Lewandowski should be played as DLF-A to make sure the striker isnt alone and isolated upfront. If you got more aggressive/offensive roles in your midfield you can try him as CF-A (works not bad with Lewandoski because he got "drop deep to get ball" PPM).