Cockney Cobbler Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: They dressed as westerners for the day of the bombings, but all had dressed in traditional gear in the months leading up to the - since they became jihadis, I'd reckon. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Sorry but I think that is an assumption and not fact, but please do prove me wrong there. The question is, why the hell did someone like the teacher involved in the bombers who was said to be 'proud to be British' all of sudden convert to the jihadi cause? What the heck are they doing to brainwash these guys? Are they that weak-willed or is the jihadi cause that seductive to make you want to kill your fellow man? I just can't work that out at all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cockney Cobbler: I don't think Bert is purposefully creating a divide, I think he has a certain amount of mistrust because of what he has seen with his own two eyes. It is rebuilding that trust between westerners and Islamist that is required but unfortunately I agree with Bert when he says, or would say, I can't see someone like OBL rebuilding any trust as he wants to destroy the west not make friends with it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> When I was in Bosnia, I fought the christians with Bosnian muslim militias. We also fought the Arab muslim militias that the islamic charities were shipping in - many Bosnian muslims recognised these as an even greater threat than the Serbs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
silver_blue Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: When I was in Bosnia, I fought the christians with Bosnian muslim militias. We also fought the Arab muslim militias that the islamic charities were shipping in - many Bosnian muslims recognised these as an even greater threat than the Serbs. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> But isn't that suggestive of the fact that large parts of the muslim community are themselves negative and suspicious, and rightly so, of the extremists who claim to speak for them? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cockney Cobbler: Sorry but I think that is an assumption and not fact, but please do prove me wrong there. The question is, why the hell did someone like the teacher involved in the bombers who was said to be 'proud to be British' all of sudden convert to the jihadi cause? What the heck are they doing to brainwash these guys? Are they that weak-willed or is the jihadi cause that seductive to make you want to kill your fellow man? I just can't work that out at all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> It is an assumption from reading up on what their families, frienda and aquaintances are saying. "He suddenly became more religious" is I think, in these circles normally taken to mean the beard and the return to traditional dress and values. I think the teacher was lying. They do that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by silver_blue: But isn't that suggestive of the fact that large parts of the muslim community are themselves negative and suspicious, and rightly so, of the extremists who claim to speak for them? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Of course. And it's easy for them to show publicly that islam may be their religion, but it's not their life. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
silver_blue Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: Of course. And it's easy for them to show publicly that islam may be their religion, but it's not their life. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> But that's surely the case for the vast majority of Muslims, regardless of what clothes they choose to wear. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moshi Moshe Mohammed Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by silver_blue: But that's not actually based on reason - because the vast majority of Pakistanis in robes aren't the enemy, and the greater threat is probably going to come from someone who's wearing western clothes and therefore blends in. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> I see them as badges of a refusal to integrate, worn with pride. Unless they're hiding union jack boxers, I see someone who's life revolves around islam to the detriment of everything else - and those are my enemies. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> As a Jew and someone who knows a large number of religious people dressed in unusual clothes by Western standards, I could not disagree with you more there, Bert. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Moshi Moshe Mohammed: As a Jew and someone who knows a large number of religious people dressed in unusual clothes by Western standards, I could not disagree with you more there, Bert. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> I have no problems with jews - until they start with suicide bombing us that is, of course. Then I'll make the same statements. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
James07? Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 even if is islam is there life it doesn't mean they're going to inflict that on anyone else in any way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by silver_blue: But that's surely the case for the vast majority of Muslims, regardless of what clothes they choose to wear. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> I would say that holds true for the vast majority who it can be seen in their appearance have made concessions to westernisation. I doubt it holds true even for half of those who don't, though. I should point out I am not including women in this - many dress for modesty or have little choice in how they dress. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
super_imps Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 Some dude has been arrested. He's a chemist apparently. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by James07?: even if is islam is there life it doesn't mean they're going to inflict that on anyone else in any way. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> I disagree. I think someone who puts his religion above education, employment and integration is very likely to want everyone else to feel the same. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by super_imps: Some dude has been arrested. He's a chemist apparently. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Aye. Anyone know if we're going to let them deal with him, or if we want him back? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
silver_blue Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: I have no problems with jews - until they start with suicide bombing us that is, of course. Then I'll make the same statements. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> This is where it falls down though - because it shows your argument is that "Muslims" are bombing us, which isn't true. Of the 1billion-ish people in the world who are Muslim, how many are bombing us? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
James07? Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: I disagree. I think someone who puts his religion above education, employment and integration is very likely to want everyone else to feel the same. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> True, they may think that. But there's a big step from wishing other people were more like you and blowing people up that aren't. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moshi Moshe Mohammed Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by silver_blue: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: I was pointing out that supporters of combat 18 would not get a single word in the nationals in the following days about their civil rights. I think I'm right, too. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> But then, supporters of Al'Quaeda wouldn't get a word about their civil rights. It's when the line between "supporters of Al'Quaeda" and "Muslims" becomes blurred that the stuff about civil rights comes out. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> The people in Guantanamo are proper "supporters of Al Qaeda", rather than "Muslims". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by silver_blue: This is where it falls down though - because it shows your argument is that "Muslims" are bombing us, which isn't true. Of the 1billion-ish people in the world who are Muslim, how many are bombing us? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Not sure I'm with you, but at a VERY conservative estimate I'd say about 20% of muslims support the bombers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by James07?: True, they may think that. But there's a big step from wishing other people were more like you and blowing people up that aren't. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Of course. They may support, but would not actively take part. But as I said earlier, can we accept the risks? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moshi Moshe Mohammed Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cockney Cobbler: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: They dressed as westerners for the day of the bombings, but all had dressed in traditional gear in the months leading up to the - since they became jihadis, I'd reckon. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Sorry but I think that is an assumption and not fact, but please do prove me wrong there. The question is, why the hell did someone like the teacher involved in the bombers who was said to be 'proud to be British' all of sudden convert to the jihadi cause? What the heck are they doing to brainwash these guys? Are they that weak-willed or is the jihadi cause that seductive to make you want to kill your fellow man? I just can't work that out at all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Or maybe he was lying when he said he was happy to be British. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Guy From The Sunny Place Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 Haven't you noticed that the beneficiaries become the biggest zealots against the benefactors. It will happen (if it don't happened yet) with the balkan Muslims also. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCranker Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Moshi Moshe Mohammed: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by silver_blue: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: I was pointing out that supporters of combat 18 would not get a single word in the nationals in the following days about their civil rights. I think I'm right, too. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> But then, supporters of Al'Quaeda wouldn't get a word about their civil rights. It's when the line between "supporters of Al'Quaeda" and "Muslims" becomes blurred that the stuff about civil rights comes out. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> The people in Guantanamo are proper "supporters of Al Qaeda", rather than "Muslims". </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Even the first part is questionable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 Here is why I don't think we can accept the risks anymore. What do you reckon? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCranker Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 Probably the same documents telling is where and how Iraq was storing their WMD. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by The Guy From The Sunny Place: Haven't you noticed that the beneficiaries become the biggest zealots against the benefactors. It will happen (if it don't happened yet) with the balkan Muslims also. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> I worry about this too. During the early years of war there, I saw not a single muslim who saw religion as a prime factor in the war. They fought for Bosnia and in self defence, not for an islamic state. From media reports there now, the jihadis are gaining a foothold. Mind, over the last 10 - 15 years they're hardly the only group of muslims to become more radical, so I wouldn't say it was necessarily the war or even less charity that is the cause. The bit in bold is just to irritate you, of course. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheCranker: Probably the same documents telling is where and how Iraq was storing their WMD. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Don't think so. Iraq feared it was a CIA set-up - thank god for paranoia, eh? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moshi Moshe Mohammed Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by James07?: even if is islam is there life it doesn't mean they're going to inflict that on anyone else in any way. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> I disagree. I think someone who puts his religion above education, employment and integration is very likely to want everyone else to feel the same. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> One does not follow from the other at all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheCranker: Even the first part is questionable. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> First part of what? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Moshi Moshe Mohammed: One does not follow from the other at all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> What sort of crowds do jewish groups bent on world domination draw? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moshi Moshe Mohammed Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by silver_blue: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: I have no problems with jews - until they start with suicide bombing us that is, of course. Then I'll make the same statements. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> This is where it falls down though - because it shows your argument is that "Muslims" are bombing us, which isn't true. Of the 1billion-ish people in the world who are Muslim, how many are bombing us? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> You can't look at it like that though. For each terrorist, there's a large social and cultural network of support that allows that terrorist to develop his ideas and methods. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCranker Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheCranker: Even the first part is questionable. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> First part of what? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> 'The people in Guantanamo are proper "supporters of Al Qaeda"'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCranker Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheCranker: Even the first part is questionable. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> First part of what? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> 'The people in Guantanamo are proper "supporters of Al Qaeda"'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
silver_blue Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: Of course. They may support, but would not actively take part. But as I said earlier, can we accept the risks? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Well, yes, you do. It's what comes from living in a society where we have freedom of opinion. In the same way that I acknowledge (grudgingly) the rights of other extremist groups to support and promote ideas I find distasteful. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by silver_blue: Well, yes, you do. It's what comes from living in a society where we have freedom of opinion. In the same way that I acknowledge (grudgingly) the rights of other extremist groups to support and promote ideas I find distasteful. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> I accepted the risks for many years. Last week was the final straw for me, though. We can't just carry on as before. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheCranker: 'The people in Guantanamo are proper "supporters of Al Qaeda"'. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> I'd say there are not more than a couple of exceptions there. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCranker Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheCranker: 'The people in Guantanamo are proper "supporters of Al Qaeda"'. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> I'd say there are not more than a couple of exceptions there. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Aye which makes the point questionable. Especially with "more than a couple" being a bit vague. I was hoping for a Bert style percentage tbh. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheCranker: Aye which makes the point questionable. Especially with "more than a couple" being a bit vague. I was hoping for a Bert style percentage tbh. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> My capacity for maths is exhausted. Cop some of this, though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheCranker: Aye which makes the point questionable. Especially with "more than a couple" being a bit vague. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Actually, this seems to be the major point on which we differ? You will not accept curtailing the freedoms of a group if even one or two members may be innocent. I will - life can be a bitch sometimes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
silver_blue Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: I accepted the risks for many years. Last week was the final straw for me, though. We can't just carry on as before. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Why though? Because of an actually, in the grand scheme of things, minor incident which killed no more than the number of people who'd die in car crashes in a week, and delayed the tubes for a while. If that's the best that they can come up with, then it's a pitiful effort. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCranker Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheCranker: Aye which makes the point questionable. Especially with "more than a couple" being a bit vague. I was hoping for a Bert style percentage tbh. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> My capacity for maths is exhausted. Cop some of this, though. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Don't get it. Isn't he saying it was a northern alliance camp wo were our buddies? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moshi Moshe Mohammed Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Moshi Moshe Mohammed: As a Jew and someone who knows a large number of religious people dressed in unusual clothes by Western standards, I could not disagree with you more there, Bert. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> I have no problems with jews - until they start with suicide bombing us that is, of course. Then I'll make the same statements. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> My issue was with you assuming that just because one is dressed a certain way one is not involved in the society. I can't tell you about the Muslims, but the many Chassidic Jews I know, with beards and black hats and all that are very very integrated, read regular newspapers, work, vote, and so on. Preservation of one's own culture does not prevent one from being a part of one's new society. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moshi Moshe Mohammed Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheCranker: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Moshi Moshe Mohammed: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by silver_blue: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: I was pointing out that supporters of combat 18 would not get a single word in the nationals in the following days about their civil rights. I think I'm right, too. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> But then, supporters of Al'Quaeda wouldn't get a word about their civil rights. It's when the line between "supporters of Al'Quaeda" and "Muslims" becomes blurred that the stuff about civil rights comes out. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> The people in Guantanamo are proper "supporters of Al Qaeda", rather than "Muslims". </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Even the first part is questionable. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Not so much. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by silver_blue: Why though? Because of an actually, in the grand scheme of things, minor incident which killed no more than the number of people who'd die in car crashes in a week, and delayed the tubes for a while. If that's the best that they can come up with, then it's a pitiful effort. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Yep. The major reaction after last week was one of relief. "Was that their best shot?" sort of thing. However, I have no doubt that if they could get a nuke into London that they'd do it. Then you'll see more deaths than cars in the UK have ever caused in history. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheCranker: Don't get it. Isn't he saying it was a northern alliance camp wo were our buddies? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Obviously he'd never lie about such a thing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCranker Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheCranker: Don't get it. Isn't he saying it was a northern alliance camp wo were our buddies? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Obviously he'd never lie about such a thing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Well he may be lying but then he may be telling the truth. Interesting that you asume he's lying rather than those responsible for his capture. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moshi Moshe Mohammed Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheCranker: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheCranker: Don't get it. Isn't he saying it was a northern alliance camp wo were our buddies? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Obviously he'd never lie about such a thing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Well he may be lying but then he may be telling the truth. Interesting that you asume he's lying rather than those responsible for his capture. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> I can just imagine the great scenario: BBC reporter comes to this guy and says "So were you a member of Al Qaeda and did you fight against Britain?" "Why yes sir, I am certainly a member of Al Qaeda, and I sure did try to kill a bunch of ugly Brits in Afghanistan" "Thank you for the interview sir" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheCranker: Well he may be lying but then he may be telling the truth. Interesting that you asume he's lying rather than those responsible for his capture. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> He is quite obviously an islamic fundamentalist. His story smacks of bo||coks to me - I don't the the northern alliance even existed in 1993. I only hope other people are keeping tabs on the bastard. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moshi Moshe Mohammed Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheCranker: Well he may be lying but then he may be telling the truth. Interesting that you asume he's lying rather than those responsible for his capture. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> He is quite obviously an islamic fundamentalist. His story smacks of bo||coks to me - I don't the the northern alliance even existed in 1993. I only hope other people are keeping tabs on the bastard. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> I think they date back to around the Afghan-Soviet war somehow, forget the details though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 Shall we talk about Feroz Abbasi? The Gitmo Brit who demanded POW status? Now why would he feel entitled to that? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Moshi Moshe Mohammed: I think they date back to around the Afghan-Soviet war somehow, forget the details though. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> No-oo, they date to around 1995 when the Taleban began to get the upper hand. They were an alliance of mujahadeen who were hostile to the Taleban. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moshi Moshe Mohammed Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Moshi Moshe Mohammed: I think they date back to around the Afghan-Soviet war somehow, forget the details though. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> No-oo, they date to around 1995 when the Taleban began to get the upper hand. They were an alliance of mujahadeen who were hostile to the Taleban. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> The Taliban began to "get an upper hand" over somebody, right? I seem to remember reading something that said the US should've backed the Northen Alliance people at a different time, or that Iran was supporting the N. Alliance folks, or something like that. I better not spread any more vagueries though at this point Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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