Tactical Question

[thejay]

Hi,

In the past versions of fm I've been experimenting with the 4231 formation.

I've had success with it, but never managed to get my players play exactly like i want,

for example if I line the 4231 system up with 2 cms one amc and two ams with the inside forward role my problem is that the wide players stay too wide even if I play narrow and let them both cut inside.

I want my wide players to play between the opposition center back and fullback, and my own fullbacks to overlap and provide the width .

Now if i line it up as 2cms and 3amc , my wide players play in the right position in the attacking phase, but now defending is a problem, as i want my wide players to press the oppositions fullback,

which they don't do when lined up like this, rather my cms tend to drift to the side, therefor leaving space in the center for the opposition to exploit.

Is there any solution to this problem other than to set my wide players to man mark the oppositions fullbacks ?

thx

[dribbler]

"I want my wide players to play between the opposition center back and fullback"...run into channels will do this but I think it's better to just put all 3 AM's on free role so they pop up all over the place...not clear if you're already doing this

"and my own fullbacks to overlap and provide the width"...so attacking, hug the line and look for overlap...also run with ball and cross from byline if they're good enough...also wing backs are probably better than full backs

have you read SFraser "Meet The System"?

[thejay]

"I want my wide players to play between the opposition center back and fullback"...run into channels will do this but I think it's better to just put all 3 AM's on free role so they pop up all over the place...not clear if you're already doing this

"and my own fullbacks to overlap and provide the width"...so attacking, hug the line and look for overlap...also run with ball and cross from byline if they're good enough...also wing backs are probably better than full backs

have you read SFraser "Meet The System"?

If I put them all three on free roles, they wont track back as constantly. They'll track back if I play them on the am position, but then in the attacking phase they're positioning themselves outside of the opposition fullbacks when they still are to receive the ball.

Only afterwards the cut inside. I want them to receive the ball in a position between the opposition fullback and center back, which is achievable only if I play them in the amc spots.

If i do that, however they are not tracking the oppositions fullbacks, which leaves me exposed defensively .

I'm satisfied with my fullbacks , I've got them to play to my liking, its the wingers which are posing the problem. I have the suspicion that this is not possible, based on the limitations of the match engine.

thanks anyway, and I will read "Meet The System" maybe there are some clues in it which can help me

[furiousuk]

My AMR and AML regularly receive the ball in the area you want them to. They are set to Inside Forward-Attack with lots of CF so they are roaming, cut inside, high mentality, often runs from deep. It is still their primary play-style in my backup 4231 but it is more evident in my usual 433 (DM, MC, MC, AMR, AML, FC).

Hows your AMC set-up? If he's holding position in the middle of the pitch then it means there is less space in the middle for your wide players to move into so they are more likely to stay wide. When my AMC in my 4231 is set to play a 'striker-type role' there will be more space than when he is set as a 'playmaker-type'. The 433 removes the AMC so obviously creates more space which the wide players are encouraged to exploit with their 'cut inside' instruction (I'll note that my usual wide-players are striker-types so their natural preference is to directly attack the goal anyway).

My MC's are always set up as playmakers (Adv.PM in the 433, Deep-lying in the 4231) so they enjoy a throughball and their natural passing angle means the 'easier' throughball is to hit the wide players AFTER they have already cut inside which is what generally happens.

Also, I generally play deep which means there is usually even more space in the central area which further encourages the wide players to move inside. The Prem in my save is pretty devoid of DM-formations but when I do come up against a DM or 2 it is evident that my players cut inside less (with the same instructions) as there is less space in there.

[dribbler]

"I will read "Meet The System" maybe there are some clues in it which can help me"...yeah he has them on free roles and he's happy with his defending which he explains in detail

How do your AML and AMR rate for teamwork and workrate?...if they don't have these they might not do much defending whatever you try

[llama3]

make sure you have a high pressing game. check the players don't have "dribbles down flank" PPM's as this will cause them to play too wide too. a more standard style will peg width a little and make the AMR&L track more defensively

[furiousuk]

And footedness plays a big part too. Left-footers on the right will be more likely to cut inside to get on their stronger foot and vice versa (same-footers will still do it though).

[thejay]

OK I think should explain how I normally set up my team and how I want them to play.

First I'm an admirer of possession football so my philosophy is set to control.

I want to win the ball back early, preferably in the half of the opponent so closing down is high, plus my defense is pushing up.

My amc should drift from side to side and search for space so he is on advanced play maker plus move into channels plus roaming ( which isn't working really well, he still stays centrally too often despite high creative freedom)

The two cms should dictate play and shield the back four so they are dlp support and central mf defend which is working rather well, although they do not really get high enough ratings, even though sometimes my dlp completes up to 100 passes and is involved in nearly every attack, which i think is a problem with the rating system, but that's another matter.

So now I want my wingers to receive the ball while they're positioning themselves in the channels between fullback and center back and attack this space while the fullback is overlapping, providing the width.

But if I play them in the am position as inside forwards inverted (right foot on the left and vice versa) they tend to receive the ball outside of the fullback, dribble to the touchline and then turn and cut inside , which is really infuriating

If I play them however on the amc position they play nearly exactly how i want them to play in the attacking phase, but leave me exposed defensively because they cant seem to understand that i want them to track the fullbacks

I hope my explanation is understandable, and thanks for the feedback .

[Juustokuningas]

Have you tried man marking the fullbacks?

[thejay]

Have you tried man marking the fullbacks?

Yes I did, and it seem to be the only way to get this to work, I just wanted to know if there is any other way to archive that,

because i think its pretty unrealistic and requires constant adjustment when i tell my players to swap position for example.

Generally I think the tactical side of the game needs a major change, especially the inability to separably set up my team in the attacking and defensive phase.

Now I'm disappointed in the fm 12 demo this is still the same, it just feels rigid , and while most of the modern tactical variations of modern football are achievable, its only possible by issuing counter intuitive commands to my players.

Positioning on the field is a vital part of the game, currently you only have one position for the winger( which probably stills stems from the past where player roles were more rigid, a winger is a winger who runs to the touchline and wips crosses ins, while nowadays most wide players should probably be described as wide forwards) ,

which not only affects the position of the player, but also his playing tendencies. Now if I want my player to play in a certain way i have the ability to change his mentality creative freedom , etc . But still how he actually plays on the field is still by a large part defined by the position slot i put him in.

The style of play i want to archive is only possible if i trick the system , ergo put my wide players in the amc position , hence they play as amc drifting wide , but are still primary amc which is reflected in their defensive positioning( which is best visible when the opposition gk has the ball)

Now I am aware that the match engine is programmed in a certain way and this would require major changes, which will probably never happen, but Im still disappointed.

[furiousuk]

Don't lose heart with it, you don't have to trick the ME, the game generally rewards realistic play and has fewer flaws than some would make out.

I have an example of collecting the ball in the channel between DC and FB:

This screenshot shows Rudenok (red 9) collecting the ball to feet from Sandro (red 8) in the channel between DC and FB. Jonny Evans (black 23) is DL whilst Smalling (black 12, under the R of Rudenok) is DCL. The next move after this screenshot was for Rudenok to take his first touch into the position Smalling is currently in whilst Smalling continues to move across, Rudenok then fires into the top corner. All made possible by moving into the channel OFF THE BALL. If he'd waited until he received the ball to cut inside then he probably wouldn't of been able to get a shot away as Utd are defending pretty narrow.

He is another example of cutting inside off the ball i.e. before the AMR has received the ball:

Rudenok has already started his run in the left screenshot, although he is moving tentatively at the moment. The ball is passed from Kelava (red 17) to Song (red 14, DCL) to Sandro (red 8, MCR). Sandro collects the ball roughly facing the referee and he can see that Rudenok has made a run in earnest into the channel betwen Evans (23, DL) and the slightly out-of-position Smalling (12, DCL). This time Sandro plays a ball over the top, which Rudenok collects before firing a shot on target. This one didn't go in but the resulting rebound off the keeper fell straight to Wilshere (red 22) who slotted home into an empty net.

Both goals were a result of the movement of the AMR off the ball into the channel between FB and DC. It's most certainly possible and it certainly isn't restricted to just this player. These screenshots were taken from a game I was playing 4231 - the shape is clear in the 2nd (right) screenshot. I have 3 attackers (with 9 AMR and 19 AML set to cut inside), a triangular midfield (22,8,12), wide FBs (17,2) and deep CBs (14, 4).

And he'll still (on occasion) do some defensive work. If I play a more aware player at AMR or AML then you may even occasionally see them defending right back on their own byline.

[dribbler]

"I think it's better to just put all 3 AM's on free role"...I meant to say roaming not free roles...sorry if this misled you

[llama3]

make sure advanced playmaker is ticked, alternatively you may want a trequartista at AMC instead of an advanced playmaker - i NEVER tick or untick anything on the TC - the TC produces realistic results by itself, tampering unbalances things

[ZdlR]

make sure advanced playmaker is ticked, alternatively you may want a trequartista at AMC instead of an advanced playmaker - i NEVER tick or untick anything on the TC - the TC produces realistic results by itself, tampering unbalances things

...if you don't know what you're doing.

[thejay]

Don't lose heart with it, you don't have to trick the ME, the game generally rewards realistic play and has fewer flaws than some would make out.

I have an example of collecting the ball in the channel between DC and FB:

This screenshot shows Rudenok (red 9) collecting the ball to feet from Sandro (red 8) in the channel between DC and FB. Jonny Evans (black 23) is DL whilst Smalling (black 12, under the R of Rudenok) is DCL. The next move after this screenshot was for Rudenok to take his first touch into the position Smalling is currently in whilst Smalling continues to move across, Rudenok then fires into the top corner. All made possible by moving into the channel OFF THE BALL. If he'd waited until he received the ball to cut inside then he probably wouldn't of been able to get a shot away as Utd are defending pretty narrow.

He is another example of cutting inside off the ball i.e. before the AMR has received the ball:

Rudenok has already started his run in the left screenshot, although he is moving tentatively at the moment. The ball is passed from Kelava (red 17) to Song (red 14, DCL) to Sandro (red 8, MCR). Sandro collects the ball roughly facing the referee and he can see that Rudenok has made a run in earnest into the channel betwen Evans (23, DL) and the slightly out-of-position Smalling (12, DCL). This time Sandro plays a ball over the top, which Rudenok collects before firing a shot on target. This one didn't go in but the resulting rebound off the keeper fell straight to Wilshere (red 22) who slotted home into an empty net.

Both goals were a result of the movement of the AMR off the ball into the channel between FB and DC. It's most certainly possible and it certainly isn't restricted to just this player. These screenshots were taken from a game I was playing 4231 - the shape is clear in the 2nd (right) screenshot. I have 3 attackers (with 9 AMR and 19 AML set to cut inside), a triangular midfield (22,8,12), wide FBs (17,2) and deep CBs (14, 4).

And he'll still (on occasion) do some defensive work. If I play a more aware player at AMR or AML then you may even occasionally see them defending right back on their own byline.

Thanks for the elaborate reply,

I've been toying around with the fm12 demo and managed to set up my team quite satisfactory. This is the first time I actually didn't use any individual instructions and just set up my tactic with the tactic creator.

There are still some thing which irk me, so I'll probably reply at a later time with some screen shots by myself to better illustrate my points.

[thejay]

make sure advanced playmaker is ticked, alternatively you may want a trequartista at AMC instead of an advanced playmaker - i NEVER tick or untick anything on the TC - the TC produces realistic results by itself, tampering unbalances things

The problem is a trequartista is not closing the opposition down at all, which I cannot accept. I want all my players to contribute to the defensive phase in some way.