cinch Premiership Data discussion

2 minutes ago, ATW said:

Good to know you watched a lot of Pro-League football as well as J-League. 

He played 9 games in Belgium.   

Fact of the matter is Ange isn't signing players such as Jeggo or Halkett as first team players.  Which is what Ange intends Kobayashi and Iwata to be.

We're not terminating the loans off Jenz and Abildgaard if Yuki and Tomoki aren't improvements, it's as simple as that. 

Edited March 3, 2023 by celtic_fc

9 minutes ago, celtic_fc said:

He played 9 games in Belgium.   

No he didn't.  But thanks for playing.

 

1 minute ago, ATW said:

No he didn't.  But thanks for playing.

 

Well those numbers are something else that needs fixing in FM...

9 hours ago, ATW said:

 

Which McGregor is in game... in fact he's the best in the league.  

 

You do understand what having an AML rating for a striker means? don't you?, Don't you?.  If not, that's may be an issue.

 

Go, on I will entertain you on a historcally 1 in 3 "pretty significantly underrated" Kevin Nisbet.  Where do you think the joint best striker in the Premiership outside the Old Firm (5th natural in league, and 8th overall) be "improved".  Or how about Greg Taylor who is looking at the overall package (I'd recommend you do that btw) is the 2nd best in the league.  

 

Floor is yours my friend.

We'll start with McGregor then. Not listed as a natural DMC only listed as 16/20 despite playing there for his last 78 club games. Meanwhile Kyogo is listed as a natural (18/20) left winger and accomplished (15/20) on the right. Kyogo has played one game at left wing in his last 68 club games with the rest being at striker.  Another thing on Kyogo while I'm here, I do not understand how he doesn't have the breaks offside trap ppm, he spends most of the game making runs in behind most of the time unnoticed by whoever is on the ball but perhaps his 18 off the ball is compensation for that. 

Kevin Nisbet fair play data on him this season is low due to his injury so I understand him being fairly similar to where he was at the beginning of the year but  9 first touch should be improved to at least 11. I think his off the ball could be improved at the expense of his positioning as you will notice most of his goals are one touch finishes due to good offensive positioning. Bumping his pace to 12 at the expense of strength should be understandable too. 

Greg Taylor 11 first touch and anticipation could be improved at expense of his heading. Decisions could also use a bump by 1 or 2 based on his choice of pass this season specifically those placed between full backs and centre backs to get wingers (usually Maeda) in behind defences. 

 

I was going to mention Iwata but it seems like he only has 16 attributes filled in which I understand due to the JLeague not being licensed there probably isn't much in the way of scouting the JLeague. Alistair Johnston having 10 strength should probably be looked at though. 

 

I return the floor to you my friend. 

Just now, celtic_fc said:

Well those numbers are something else that needs fixing in FM...

Because he played 14 league games this season FFS.  It's a winter update 

3 minutes ago, celtic_fc said:

Fact of the matter is Ange isn't signing players such as Jeggo or Halkett as first team players.  Which is what Ange intends Kobayashi and Iwata to be.

We're not terminating the loans off Jenz and Abildgaard if Yuki and Tomoki aren't improvements, it's as simple as that. 

Kobayashi is a project player for Celtic, he has 0 caps for Japan and played in a lower half team in Japan, he is 22 and is happy to play fringes at the moment and learn to improve, to then develop into the first team. In regards to the Jenz situation, he wasn't happy that he was not getting any first team football anymore, he moved on loan from Lorient to get first team football. Iwata has a CA that is a first team Celtic player, simple as that.

Both these players have been rated by another researcher outside of Scotland, we haven't rated them as Iwata has 32 minutes of Premiership football and Kobayashi has 90 minutes of Premiership football. We can't just up their ratings because they've signed for Celtic, unless their CA is extremely unreasonable, which they most certainly aren't.

2 minutes ago, ATW said:

Because he played 14 league games this season FFS.  It's a winter update 

I simply used his his career stats in FM and you're taking that as some sort of win, congrats.  

Bizarre man.

6 minutes ago, CaylumM said:

Kobayashi is a project player for Celtic, he has 0 caps for Japan and played in a lower half team in Japan, he is 22 and is happy to play fringes at the moment and learn to improve, to then develop into the first team. In regards to the Jenz situation, he wasn't happy that he was not getting any first team football anymore, he moved on loan from Lorient to get first team football. Iwata has a CA that is a first team Celtic player, simple as that.

Both these players have been rated by another researcher outside of Scotland, we haven't rated them as Iwata has 32 minutes of Premiership football and Kobayashi has 90 minutes of Premiership football. We can't just up their ratings because they've signed for Celtic, unless their CA is extremely unreasonable, which they most certainly aren't.

Jenz admitted Yuki's signing had an impact on his decision to leave, suggesting Kobayashi had overtook him in the pecking order.  Which to me suggests they should have similar CA, they don't.

Edited March 3, 2023 by celtic_fc

13 minutes ago, c0nn0r said:

We'll start with McGregor then. Not listed as a natural DMC only listed as 16/20 despite playing there for his last 78 club games. Meanwhile Kyogo is listed as a natural (18/20) left winger and accomplished (15/20) on the right. Kyogo has played one game at left wing in his last 68 club games with the rest being at striker.  Another thing on Kyogo while I'm here, I do not understand how he doesn't have the breaks offside trap ppm, he spends most of the game making runs in behind most of the time unnoticed by whoever is on the ball but perhaps his 18 off the ball is compensation for that. 

 

We have tbf already said we'd look at moving CalMac to 18, for AI purposes but 16 still makes him the best DMC in the league, by quite a margin.  

 

The AML/R is not Left Winger/Right Winger in the true sense.  As you will notice a true winger will have the ML/R filled in, Kyogo does not.  What it represents is he's an attacker who can play right across the line rather than just a CF

 

Quote

Greg Taylor 11 first touch and anticipation could be improved at expense of his heading. Decisions could also use a bump by 1 or 2 based on his choice of pass this season specifically those placed between full backs and centre backs to get wingers (usually Maeda) in behind defences. 

Fair points tbf.  

3 minutes ago, celtic_fc said:

Jenz admitted Yuki's signing had an impact on his decision to leave, suggesting Kobayashi had overtook him in the pecking order.

I mean, having 2 permanent players (from a league that the manager is extremely fond of) coming in will impact a loan player's (who already wasn't playing) first team football. It certainly doesn't mean that one player is better than the other, he doesn't come out in the interview and say "Kobayashi was better than me ability wise, so I left Celtic", he says Kobayashi coming in affected the situation and therefore he wanted to leave.

1 minute ago, CaylumM said:

I mean, having 2 permanent players (from a league that the manager is extremely fond of) coming in will impact a loan player's (who already wasn't playing) first team football. It certainly doesn't mean that one player is better than the other, he doesn't come out in the interview and say "Kobayashi was better than me ability wise, so I left Celtic", he says Kobayashi coming in affected the situation and therefore he wanted to leave.

I'm not arguing Kobayashi is better than Jenz, truth is we don't have a clue at this point.  But if they weren't at least similar in terms of ability there is no way we terminate his loan.  In FM Kobayashi is closer to Robbie Deas of Inverness than he is to Jenz, that's quite the difference.

1 minute ago, celtic_fc said:

I'm not arguing Kobayashi is better than Jenz, truth is we don't have a clue at this point.  But if they weren't at least similar in terms of ability there is no way we terminate his loan.  In FM Kobayashi is closer to Robbie Deas of Inverness than he is to Jenz, that's quite the difference.

"Truth is we don't have a clue at this point" exactly. Hence why he's came over to us with that CA, it's not an unreasonable CA for what Kobayashi has achieved in his career internationally. He's clearly a project player for Celtic, so he's a decent player but has room for improvement, which is shown by his CA and PA.

Celtic terminated his loan as Jenz wasn't happy with first team football playing time. He's not going to sit on the bench and be happy when the point of his loan was first team football from Lorient. He is being left out by Starfelt and CCV.

7 minutes ago, CaylumM said:

"Truth is we don't have a clue at this point" exactly. Hence why he's came over to us with that CA, it's not an unreasonable CA for what Kobayashi has achieved in his career internationally. He's clearly a project player for Celtic, so he's a decent player but has room for improvement, which is shown by his CA and PA.

Celtic terminated his loan as Jenz wasn't happy with first team football playing time. He's not going to sit on the bench and be happy when the point of his loan was first team football from Lorient. He is being left out by Starfelt and CCV.

You keep saying Kobayashi is a project player but if that's the case so was Jenz, which is why I'm arguing they should be similar in terms of CA.  Yuki came from the same club as Kyogo, he has Asian CL experience and 125 career appearances at J-League or above level at 22, 

Jenz at 23 had a grand total of 5 EFL cup appearances, 33 appearances in Switzerland and 18 appearances in France before joining us.

4 minutes ago, celtic_fc said:

You keep saying Kobayashi is a project player but if that's the case so was Jenz, which is why I'm arguing they should be similar in terms of CA.  Yuki came from the same club as Kyogo, he has Asian CL experience and 125 career appearances at J-League or above level at 22, 

Jenz at 23 had a grand total of 5 EFL cup appearances, 33 appearances in Switzerland and 18 appearances in France before joining us.

Jenz wasn't a project player, he was a player to come in and play first team football straight away, certainly a loan move viewed as a "try before you buy". He was, after a fantastic season in Switzerland, viewed by a team in a Top 5 league that he was worth a £3.5m transfer.

Kobayashi has 5 games at Asian CL level, that's barely having any "Asian CL experience". He has under 100 appearances at J-League 1 level. As for your comment about how he "came from the same club as Kyogo", what does that have to do with anything?

56 minutes ago, CaylumM said:

Jenz wasn't a project player, he was a player to come in and play first team football straight away, certainly a loan move viewed as a "try before you buy". He was, after a fantastic season in Switzerland, viewed by a team in a Top 5 league that he was worth a £3.5m transfer.

Kobayashi has 5 games at Asian CL level, that's barely having any "Asian CL experience". He has under 100 appearances at J-League 1 level. As for your comment about how he "came from the same club as Kyogo", what does that have to do with anything?

It was you who brought up the 'lower half J-League team' to back up why you think he is a project?  And let's be real if Starfelt didn't get injured Jenz wouldn't have been playing first team football right away, in the same if Starfelt was to get injured now Kobayashi would find himself playing 'right away'.  You're right in that he was a try before you buy but my argument would be, we did try, we concluded he wasn't good enough (as did Lorient btw) and have brought in a player we think is better.

Bottom line is Kobayashi has more first team football behind him than Jenz despite being younger and outside of a dozen or so starts for Lorient at a no better level than Kobayashi.  Fact is, in FM, Kobayashi is closer to Robbie Deas (Scot Championship) than he is to Jenz (CA and PA wise) and there is nothing to back that up other than those 18 Ligue 1 appearances where Lorient decided he wasn't good enough and to get rid after one season.

Edited March 3, 2023 by celtic_fc

Hello,

 

I have downloaded the winter update,

going to run some tests,

 

Thanks for all the hard work and great to see some discussions in a forum that was dormant for a while.

How do the players get player traits? Are they given by updaters? or generated in game?

 

cheers

Iwata, Kobayashi, Mooy and Hatate all have Stamina that  is surpassed by a lot of the lower league players in Scotland, I dont think you will be at a top club with Stamina in the single digit, or indeed barely making double figures. Esp when lower league players are higher in a lot of cases, no chance should these lower league players be anywhere near the fitness levels of top teir players.

https://ibb.co/SnHP1ZX

https://ibb.co/PmSNF4N

 

 

 

Abada, Turnbull and Bernabe are regulars,

Hatate started 0 games, He should be the star player in the team. Maeda started 3 games, Taylor started 7.

 

There are 7 players in the squad qith a better first touch than Hatate, he should be right up the top of that,

https://ibb.co/mSF6tBt

 

 

CCV could be nudged up pace and acc, you barely see him getting done for pace.

End of season player ratings,

https://ibb.co/JQkfWQ6

 

 

 

Edited March 5, 2023 by bigbeezer

How do i get the screenshots in here instead of just the link to it? thanks, be a lot easier for people to see.

Just noticed there,

 

Glenn Kamara has 18 Tech and 17 first touch, Now he is a decent player but no chance is he so far ahead in terms of Tech to the likes of Hatate or Jota? Jota for example has 2 less tech and 2 less first touch than Kamara? Hatate has 5 less tech and 2 less first touch than Kamara?

 

Just one example i spotted there.

Not really a lot of feedback in here,

do these posts get seen by the updaters? Would be nice to know that our efforts are noted.

Hi

I recently posted a comment regarding Celtic FC player attributes on another forum and was directed here to expand on my  observations.

I would like to highlight examples of where it appears player attributes have been over and under valued.

I would like to first share some data that I think shows the finishing value for Kyogo Furuhashi has been undervalued while the same attribute for Matt O'Riley has been significantly overvalued

i will be using data from the game as well as statistical data from the FotMob  app for season 22/23 to provide evidence for this. for comparison I am also including data for Alfredo Morelos a striker who also plays in the Scottish Premiership for Rangers

 Lets look firstly at the key Attributes associated with Finishing for all 3 players

                        Finishing  technique anticipation composure concentration decisions

Furuhashi            12               14                 16                12                 14                    11

O'Riley                  12               15                 12                14                 12                    11

Morelos               14                14                 16                 5                   8                     12

Note that O'Rileys Finishing is the same as Furuhashi and his technique and composure are both higher, then compare this with what the real world data shows us. it is also of interest that Morelos has composure of 5, far too low I would suggest given his higher finishing of 14.

So what does the real world data tell us.

                        Goals    xG    Goals per 90 min SOT 90 min  Shots per 90 min  SOT % Conversion Rate 

Furuhashi          20     15.3             1.06                   1.6                       3.3                 48.4            23.8%

O'Riley                 1       4.4              0.05                    1                         2.6                  37.7             1.5%

Morelos             13      10.3            0.72                    2                         5.1                  39.7             10.3%

It is also worth noting that neither Furuhashi or Morelos take penalty kicks for their respective teams.

In my opinion this data shows it cannot be correct for Furuhashi's Finishing to be lower than Morelos given his more than double rate of conversation  and O'Rileys finishing attributes are significantly higher than his Conversation rate  would suggest.

 

8 hours ago, DavidH said:

 

Furuhashi            12               14                 16                12                 14                    11

O'Riley                  12               15                 12                14                 12                    11

Morelos               14                14                 16                 5                   8                     12

...

In my opinion this data shows it cannot be correct for Furuhashi's Finishing to be lower than Morelos given his more than double rate of conversation  and O'Rileys finishing attributes are significantly higher than his Conversation rate  would suggest.

 

Hi.  Thank you for post, but your conclusion is incorrect.  Kyogo finishing ability is higher than Morelos' in game.  

Have you run tests, by playing as both Rangers and Celtic, and as well as letting AI do it's thing.