CCC - so why dont they score?

As the title says - why not?

I have been playing toe to toe with some of the big boys in the EPL with my newly promoted team and have been creating many CCCs, but i havent been able to convert an acceptable amount.

I first thought that it was my striker, so i changed him around, but still to no avail. I even tried changing the way that these CCCs came about, but still the ball just fails to find the back of the net from them. Infact, most of my goals come from a brilliant shot or deflections, or simply bad keeping.

So while I am scoring goals, I am not scoring enough - especially when taking the amount of CCCs in a game.

So in an effort to change this, I have come to you lot... any ideas?

Thanks in advance

WW

A CCC is a CCC independent of context.

On his weaker foot? 3D isn't great for this so consider the angles (of the player when taking the shot and how opposition defenders position themselves relative to him) or look for a clue in the commentary.

On his head when his heading attribute is relatively low?

CCCs on their feet usually involve composure as usually 1v1 or defenders not goalside to block => what is that attribute like for your player on the end of the CCC?

Finally consider this post by wwfan re creative freedom. I don't know if this is his opinion based on observation or he has some insight into the ME code from working on the tactical wizard for FML/FM10, either way you can try it out and see if it helps.

http://community.sigames.com/showpost.php?p=3364965&postcount=52

Creative Freedom

It's a flair boost, which encourages players to do different things. The most noticeable effect is FCs' finishing. With low CF, they will always try a standard finish, which can lead to many missed chances against high quality defences/keepers, as they become easy to read/defend against. With higher CF, they will aim to try different things (early shot, faked shot, chip, lob, screamer, passed shot, rounding the keeper etc) which can, with the right FC, maximise goal scoring potential. Encouraging players to try flair-based moves in defensive areas of the pitch can be risky, but with a good team can still work in your favour. However, with a team of limited technical and mental ability, high CF at the back, and indeed in all areas of the pitch, can be massively unproductive.

In short, CF is a must at higher levels, as are free roles. Without these, it becomes very difficult to break down top class defences as your play is simply too predictable. At lower levels, it needs to be used with far more caution as it can disrupt shape and cause moves to break down as players simply aren't capable of pulling off the things they are trying to do or choose to try things at the wrong time. Furthermore, if they do pull it off, their team mates are unable to read it.

Just to clarify my own CCC creation is mediocre at best and I've seen plenty of screenshots from others' tactics in here that generally seem to do a better job of it (knap, kingmike666 thread on the front page to name but 2). People will tell you it's all about stretching the opposition and creating space, but you are still ultimately dependent on player decision making (spotting/picking the pass. player run timing etc.) and execution. You can influence these things but never 100%.

It's all context as I said. If you're new to the Premiership and creating CCCs on the counter for a pacy striker then some PPMs might help (rounds the keeper, places shots are, based on postings on this forum, pretty useful in 1v1 scenarios).

Not much help I know but meh

I would say that isuckatfm is pretty much spot on with his post there. Lots of factors to consider.

PPM's are a good shout if you can't change your strikers or find some other solution, though even with these a player prone to missing will still likely miss.

You could try lowering your tempo but this is likely to interfere with your chance creation. The only other potential solution I can think of if you cannot change/train your striker is to try and compose him through your teamtalks. Try to micromanage your teamtalks, so to speak, so that your midfielders are up for the game but your strikers are composed and assured. Being able to find the right individual teamtalk for the right players at the right time is often a big part of a FM09, and there are few more important positions than the striker position.

Try telling your striker that you "Have Faith" or "No Pressure" irrespective of what you tell the rest of your team. It may not work but it is very much an option. This approach seems to work with Berbatov.

Thanks for the response, much apreciated.

Will look into some PPMs when I go on later.

Regarding the reference to wwfan's post on CF, would putting my striker on mixed CF lead him to choose the best option (dependent on his decisions) - would he decide whether a 'standard' finish or a 'creative' one would suffice.

As for the team talks I suppose only time will tell, but I will put it into practice and see if there is a marked difference.

Thanks again

WW

In general, I'd be erring towards high to max CF for a good FC in the Premiership. The more unpredictable you make him, the better his scoring ratio is likely to be.

My quote on CF was derived from observations in FML and a few chats with Paul about what I was seeing. I had never had a low chance conversion ratio for a top class FC in any FM or FML. However, it so happened I was playing around with some ideas in FML relating to different styles of build up play on each side of the pitch, which led to my dropping CF for a forward who had previously terrorised defences. His scoring rate immediately went down quite dramatically, although he was actually getting slightly more opportunities. I chatted with Paul about this and we concluded that his lower CF was likely to be leading to his trying the simple finishes too often, especially when slightly further out, which made him one dimensional and gave the keeper a much greater chance making the save. I increased his CF and he immediately began to find the net again.

I've been experimenting with trying to utilise settings I would normally reserve for the best of players at the highest levels and so far it would suggest that the higher creative freedom/free roles combination doing well even at lower levels.

The important factor to consider is obviously attributes of your own players compared to opponents. However, testing high settings such as these with my strikers in friendlies against Betis and Sevilla with my now Liga Adelante Granada CF side, produced excellent results.

I'm all for an overall attacking mentality, which I include within that mentality, creative freedom and free roles. It's entirely possible that you can over-acheive with average players if you give them the scope to "do their thing". It seems that any defence (and realistically so IMO) will struggle to contain forwards who are prepared to do the unexpected, take them on, move well into space and actually take opportunities to shoot.

"If you don't shoot, you don't score" as my old sports teacher used to say at school. Through less conservative settings, my strikers certainly take more opportunities to shoot, the result (obviously) being more goals.

In general, I'd be erring towards high to max CF for a good FC in the Premiership. The more unpredictable you make him, the better his scoring ratio is likely to be.

Cool. It just so happens that I have upped his CF anyway as I have brought in a new striker. So I will now see If that makes a difference - although it could just be the new striker.

I've been experimenting with trying to utilise settings I would normally reserve for the best of players at the highest levels and so far it would suggest that the higher creative freedom/free roles combination doing well even at lower levels.

The important factor to consider is obviously attributes of your own players compared to opponents. However, testing high settings such as these with my strikers in friendlies against Betis and Sevilla with my now Liga Adelante Granada CF side, produced excellent results.

I'm all for an overall attacking mentality, which I include within that mentality, creative freedom and free roles. It's entirely possible that you can over-acheive with average players if you give them the scope to "do their thing". It seems that any defence (and realistically so IMO) will struggle to contain forwards who are prepared to do the unexpected, take them on, move well into space and actually take opportunities to shoot.

"If you don't shoot, you don't score" as my old sports teacher used to say at school. Through less conservative settings, my strikers certainly take more opportunities to shoot, the result (obviously) being more goals.

When i started playing FM - been playing for a realtively small time of 3 years - I was of the same mind, but since then i have frequented many forums to do with FM, and the general consensus was that of low CF for lower level players.

On another save of mine I happened to have one of the worst teams in the portuguese leagues, and by putting high CF on the forward players I was the best scoring team in the league.

Taking this, and what you have said, I think I will re-evaluate many of the things these forums have managed to unintentially cram into my FM brain, and that I previously believed as Bible truth.

Thanks again

WW

I have got a right footed striker from Brazil who I want to play on the left side .

Can u suggest the best inndivual tactic to allow me to do this

That allow him to cut onto his right and score

Cheers

Ol Wait

I gave him creative freedom and now he is cutting onto his right and scoring good goals

Cheers

I have seen an improvment thanks to high CF - although not a majorly impressive one.

I was thinking that maybe it was coming down to how they take these chances. You lot have stated that high CF will help them score, and I can only agree with you here, but what about PPMs? Would they help a player score, or would they make him predictable?

What skills do you need for what PPMs? - I'm talking 'shoots with power', 'places shots' etc.

Thanks in advance, again.

WW

If I can I like to develop two shooting options for an FC, one being either 'shoots with power' or 'places shots' and the other 'rounds keeper' or 'likes to lob keeper' or 'shoots from distance' depending on their attributes. I've heard some people swear that 'places shots' and 'shoots with power' is an unbeatable combination, but I've never tried it.

One thing you need to take into consideration is that chances from through balls are far, far harder to score than ones from lateral passes or crosses. The keeper has much more chance of narrowing the angle, whereas for chances off lateral passes he can easily be wrong footed. If you are generating a lot of one on one type chances, or shots from through balls, think about spreading the play wide a little more often and try to create chances from different angles.

Another thing that will probably help is reducing FWRs on the FC, if you haven't already. An FC doesn't need forward runs, as they basically tell him to advance ahead of his position, which will put him offside. Giving him no forward runs enables him to sit on the shoulder of the last man and react to where the ball is going, rather than make a run and have the player then pick him out, which often means the shooting angle has already been narrowed before he has a chance to pull the trigger. An FC with good anticipation and off the ball shouldn't have FWRs set at all, as he will then rely on his attributes to be in the right place rather than pre-set run instructions.

If I can I like to develop two shooting options for an FC, one being either 'shoots with power' or 'places shots' and the other 'rounds keeper' or 'likes to lob keeper' or 'shoots from distance' depending on their attributes. I've heard some people swear that 'places shots' and 'shoots with power' is an unbeatable combination, but I've never tried it.

One thing you need to take into consideration is that chances from through balls are far, far harder to score than ones from lateral passes or crosses. The keeper has much more chance of narrowing the angle, whereas for chances off lateral passes he can easily be wrong footed. If you are generating a lot of one on one type chances, or shots from through balls, think about spreading the play wide a little more often and try to create chances from different angles.

Another thing that will probably help is reducing FWRs on the FC, if you haven't already. An FC doesn't need forward runs, as they basically tell him to advance ahead of his position, which will put him offside. Giving him no forward runs enables him to sit on the shoulder of the last man and react to where the ball is going, rather than make a run and have the player then pick him out, which often means the shooting angle has already been narrowed before he has a chance to pull the trigger. An FC with good anticipation and off the ball shouldn't have FWRs set at all, as he will then rely on his attributes to be in the right place rather than pre-set run instructions.

Coincidentally I had just read in a thread around here that a strikers FWR: rarely got his striker some good results, and I have just implemented it into my tactic.

As for spreading the play that is something that I try to do already, though I may have another look at my wingers and see if they can get more crosses in than through balls...

What I meant when i was discussing the PPMs was what attributes would you advise for a specific ppm - or is it not needed?

thanks again

WW

Super thread. Thanks guys.

Just re. forward runs for strikers who play on the shoulder - I've found it useful to have forward runs 'often' in combination with the 'break the offside trap' PPM. Although my offside count is truly silly (in part because of the abilities of BSS players I'm sure), I think I might revisit this idea and see if better results are possible following wwfan's advice.

Again, I beleive it's possible to be successful with a number of attribute/PPM combinations here.

Currently playing around with two strikers. One who "sits on the shoulder" and one who looks to beat the offside trap and is encouraged by forward runs settings either mixed or often.

Don't think there's any particular right or wrong here though. Depends entirely if the players attributes are ideally suited to the instructions your giving him, or not as the case may be.

Observe, learn, act...

If I am using two FCs, I will have the more advanced one (FCa) with no FWRs. He will usually be the poacher type of player, and I'll keep everything as simple as possible for him i.e. no TBs, no crosses, no long shots, RWB mixed. The 'breaks offside trap', 'runs with ball through centre', 'places shots' and even 'moves into channels' PPMs are useful for such a player. What I want him to do is get in the gap between the DC and FB (moves into channels) and break the offside trap when the opportunity arises. I then want him to go for goal (runs with ball through centre) and slide home the chances (places shots). I also like him to have 'likes to round keeper' to give him a second option when he breaks free, although he needs good technique and dribbling for that. Yet another PPM option for this type of player is 'plays a simple passing game'.

The second FC (FCd) will have the lower mentality, thus keeping him deeper, but will have FWRs Mixed so he can then catch up with play as it moves ahead of him. PPMs for him can include 'tries killer balls often' and 'tries long shots', as he wil often be moving into the space between the midfield and defence to make such plays dangerous. You can also try to get him to 'run through the centre' if he has good dribbling. Either shooting PPM is fine as well.

A lone FC will have some of the abilities of each, but I'll play him without FWRs. He needs to be able to play on the shoulder and/or drop deep to pick up the ball depending on where it is on the pitch, so I'll drop his mentality a bit.

One thing worth remembering though, is that for defensive or counter attacking tactics, FWRs for forwards help them break. Therefore, for any tactic in which not conceding is key, have the FCa with FWRs mixed and the FCd with them Often. As soon as you are more aggressive within your overall strategy, drop each FWRs setting by one notch.

Don't think there's any particular right or wrong here though. Depends entirely if the players attributes are ideally suited to the instructions your giving him, or not as the case may be.

Observe, learn, act...

Very true, just good every now and again to revisit things. The AI has developed a very nasty tendency to play 5-3-2 against me which is annoying me intensely at the moment (BSS Bognor vs PL West Brom at the Baggies ground in 3rd round of FA Cup - I play a '4-4-2', they play 5-3-2!) so I feel the need for a revamp!

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Never considered the PPM of playing it simple for a striker - I can see its value with a very limited forward, but wouldn't it make the player even more one-dimensional? I suppose in essence we're talking about a one-dimensional player (the 'classic' goal poacher) in any case, but could there be a danger of over-specialising? I'm still unsure about PPMs and their benefits to be honest - primarily because of not really knowing how/when they will influence a player's actions. Throw in the hit-and-miss way PPMs are learnt, it makes for some fun times trying to test them out without using an editor.

It's interesting because I now consider the ability to learn PPM's as intergral as certain attributes. Because I look for certain player character types as well, to assist with gelling and a good overall squad outlook, I'm still baffled from time to time when I have an ideal looking player, who flatly refuses to learn any PPM's.

That's been my single biggest frustration with my current save, as I have a young striker who would be "perfect" (for my tactics at least) if he would only agree to learn a couple of PPM's I want him to. Additional problem is I have no suitable players that could tutor him and take that route. Although I could quite easily change my tactics to suit him, that goes entirely against my principals.

. Although I could quite easily change my tactics to suit him, that goes entirely against my principals.

People in glass houses shouldn't throw or.., erm stones, so I'll not comment I'm totally 'misusing' SFraser's advice on training to try and bring total football to Bognor which can lead to some Sacchi-esqe moments of 'if he doesn't want to fit into my system, he can go and play somewhere else'

It would be nice to have some of the PPM options as actual tactical options as I'm surely not alone in wondering how they sometimes relate to direct player/team instructions and whether one then has to compensate for the PPMs. Some of the PPMs I have no idea about - eg is 'dwells on ball' the PPM equivalent of 'HUB'? Wish I had more time so that I could actually test things thoroughly rather than having to risk it in a game situation (a season every couple of months is good going for me).

Always excellent to get insight into how other players approach certain aspects of the game to obtain results even if I'm a bit of a zealot on the specialisation of players part of the game.

In general, I'd be erring towards high to max CF for a good FC in the Premiership. The more unpredictable you make him, the better his scoring ratio is likely to be.

My quote on CF was derived from observations in FML and a few chats with Paul about what I was seeing. I had never had a low chance conversion ratio for a top class FC in any FM or FML. However, it so happened I was playing around with some ideas in FML relating to different styles of build up play on each side of the pitch, which led to my dropping CF for a forward who had previously terrorised defences. His scoring rate immediately went down quite dramatically, although he was actually getting slightly more opportunities. I chatted with Paul about this and we concluded that his lower CF was likely to be leading to his trying the simple finishes too often, especially when slightly further out, which made him one dimensional and gave the keeper a much greater chance making the save. I increased his CF and he immediately began to find the net again.

If you're playing with a lone striker and he's more of a target man than a forward (low creativity/flair) would you still have his CF on high? I'm often confused as to what settings to decide for my AMC and ST for my everton team (4-4-1-1) as they're both low flair/creativity (but otherwise very good stats). I assume they won't make good use of free role either. Is this correct?

I tried giving free role to my striker who plays on the left hand side but he seems to drift out the game to much

Do yo u guys not find the same problem when using free role ?

One question Heath and WWfan, One of my FC's lewandowski flat out refuses to learn anything that would change his game, is there anything else you can do to make him more likely to accept these requests?

One question Heath and WWfan, One of my FC's lewandowski flat out refuses to learn anything that would change his game, is there anything else you can do to make him more likely to accept these requests?

Maybe you're new to the club? I think if they like you more they may be more likely to learn what you ask them to. Other than that there really isn't much you can do. Some players just never want to learn some/any moves. The older they are the less likely too.