Asymmetric Troubles - Season Stalling

Hey guys,

I’m writing this because I’m at the end of my tether and very close to packing in FM for good.

This save was the last throw of the dice and initially it looked promising, but now I’ve utterly collapsed.

As you can see we were blowing teams away. Lots of possession, great ratio of shots on target. All of a sudden we struggle to win a game. Even the draws I’m being dominated. I have no idea why, nothing in my tactic has changed. I want to say it’s morale but reading here suggested that means almost nothing.

I’ve read everything religiously here for the last month and I still cant establish what’s wrong.

Here’s the tactic

Rationale:

CD x 2 – Standard

FB S – Mainly defensive but providing another passing outlet.

WB S (stay wider, run wider) – Want this guy to get further forward and almost act as another midfielder when we’ve got the ball. Also provide width then the IF cuts in.

DM D – Shield for the back line and recycle possession

RPM S – Dynamic playmaker who starts deep and works up the pitch. Also helps out in defence

WM S (stay wider, run wider, cross more often) –This play is all about providing width on the left to stretch the team and provide deadly crosses.

IF S – Want him to pick up the ball and run at defence. Also a secondary goalscorer

AP A – Primarily an creator high up the pitch who should also chip in a few goals

CF A – Primary goalscorer. Want him to push back the line but also contribute to build up hence CF not AF

Flexible – Originally choose structured given the defined roles but was worried that the plays will be too far apart. Flexible seemed to give better results.

Control – Want to be slightly more aggressive and also push line up so players are closer.

Fairly narrow – Again this is about bringing my players closer.

Work out of defence – Don’t want to kick it long.

Work into box – Want us to be patient in attack.

Lower tempo – Again to give the team patience, countering the more aggressive mentality

My only thoughts are:

1. Dribble less – Conscious I’ve chosen lots of dribbling roles. Maybe this will curb that slightly and encourage more one touch passing?

2. Remove work ball into box – Ask players to be a bit more incisive?

3. Retain possession (+ structured shape?) – Bring players closer together and encourage even more patient play.

4. Change the RPM role to something more defensive e.g. B2B, CM S

5. Change CF A to CF S and switch IF S to IF A – Change to the primary point of attack?

If you have any thoughts they would be much appreciated.

As you can see we were blowing teams away. Lots of possession, great ratio of shots on target. All of a sudden we struggle to win a game. Even the draws I’m being dominated. I have no idea why, nothing in my tactic has changed.

Before we get onto possible solutions, we have to identify the problem(s) .

You say even in draws you are being dominated. Can you please define what you mean here? If you had lots of possession and decent shots, has that suddenly stopped and you are no longer getting the majority of possession and shots? Looking at your results, you are either drawing matches or losing by just one goal (except Hull), so how are you now being dominated?

Further, how exactly are you conceding goals? Are you simply being outplayed; hitting you on the break; set pieces? Are opponents now getting lots more decent chances than you? Or are they just having a few chances and scoring one or two?

It's important to understand what is going on here because "usually" (a massive generalisation there) a poor run of form after an excellent start to the season may simply mean that opponents are now tightening up against you. So instead of the space they had been leaving for your tactical system to exploit, that space is no longer there and so you stop scoring. Further, teams will hit you on the break better because they have adjusted how they play, whereas you haven't - you are now leaving space for them to exploit. Thus, you would need to make some tactical adjustments (usually lose some aggression).

Now, that's a generalisation which may or not be happening in your case, so you need to help us understand what is going on.

Before we get onto possible solutions, we have to identify the problem(s) .

You say even in draws you are being dominated. Can you please define what you mean here? If you had lots of possession and decent shots, has that suddenly stopped and you are no longer getting the majority of possession and shots? Looking at your results, you are either drawing matches or losing by just one goal (except Hull), so how are you now being dominated?

Further, how exactly are you conceding goals? Are you simply being outplayed; hitting you on the break; set pieces? Are opponents now getting lots more decent chances than you? Or are they just having a few chances and scoring one or two?

It's important to understand what is going on here because "usually" (a massive generalisation there) a poor run of form after an excellent start to the season may simply mean that opponents are now tightening up against you. So instead of the space they had been leaving for your tactical system to exploit, that space is no longer there and so you stop scoring. Further, teams will hit you on the break better because they have adjusted how they play, whereas you haven't - you are now leaving space for them to exploit. Thus, you would need to make some tactical adjustments (usually lose some aggression).

Now, that's a generalisation which may or not be happening in your case, so you need to help us understand what is going on.

Hey Herne,

The issues started with Blackburn and Hull. I've included some screenshots to illustrate.

Blackburn

Playing against a 433 they dominated possession and shots. I only got lucky with two set piece goals. The majority of their shots were mix of simple build up play then a through ball, counter attacks and wide play.

Hull

This was a bit different. They played a 5-2-1-2 with really wide wingbacks providing loads of crosses. Again they dominated the chances.

By way of comparison here's the stats from the game before Blackburn against a good Nott Forest side.

I think the main issues i've observed are:

> Suddenly not being able to control possession compared to early in the season. Players seem much more wasteful

> Dropping shot on target ratio

> Giving up chances through crosses and also through the odd counter attack

> Struggling when teams play wide

My fav formation the Assym formation, it took me a heck of a lot of tinkering to get the roles right for my players. I personally did have my cm as rpm but I found him way too often in the wrong place at the wrong time so I changed him to a CMS. The other obvious changes to yours are that my DM is on support because I found him being a bit too far from the rest of the team and my ap is on support.

What sticks out on your stats is the passing is terrible, I would watch matches and use the analysis tools to see where it's going wrong, the one major thing that helped me because I use and Advanced Forward was getting my IF and AP to hold up the ball, this allowed me to keep my advanced forward and allows the rest of the team more time to become passing options. But again I would definitely look at where the passing is going wrong, and who is turning possession over and why.

Similar to my 4-2-3-1 asymmetric although I use 2 DMs. I will consider using a anchorman instead. A DM at DM position has close down more so he may not be the true shield that you want.

I also suggest using the default width to counter opposition teams deadly crosses. If you defend narrow, you are giving up the wide areas for opposition players to cross.

My fav formation the Assym formation, it took me a heck of a lot of tinkering to get the roles right for my players. I personally did have my cm as rpm but I found him way too often in the wrong place at the wrong time so I changed him to a CMS. The other obvious changes to yours are that my DM is on support because I found him being a bit too far from the rest of the team and my ap is on support.

What sticks out on your stats is the passing is terrible, I would watch matches and use the analysis tools to see where it's going wrong, the one major thing that helped me because I use and Advanced Forward was getting my IF and AP to hold up the ball, this allowed me to keep my advanced forward and allows the rest of the team more time to become passing options. But again I would definitely look at where the passing is going wrong, and who is turning possession over and why.

Thanks for the reply Ivan. Can I ask do you use the same mentality and shape as me? On your other points:

CM S - I'm definitely going to try this. Like you said the RPM ends up all over the place and need a bit more discipline.

DM S - This is one of those ones that feels counter-intuitive but like you said may mean possession is recycled and kept better

AP S - I've found in FM16 that AP S always seems to be too far back when play gets further up the pitch. But will see how this goes.

AF with hold - Interesting. This gives a similar role to that of the CF A but again with a bit more discipline. So will try this.

IF with hold - How does this affect his play? I want this guy to be more direct, does it stop him dribbling?

Passing - Do you mean my possession or pass completion or both? Will need to look at this in more detail.

Similar to my 4-2-3-1 asymmetric although I use 2 DMs. I will consider using a anchorman instead. A DM at DM position has close down more so he may not be the true shield that you want.

I also suggest using the default width to counter opposition teams deadly crosses. If you defend narrow, you are giving up the wide areas for opposition players to cross.

Thanks as well Vasilli.

Interesting that you use another DM - is your second DM a registra type player who steps up when in possession?

Anchor man - Another one to try out, but not sure how this might affect my possession as didn't think Anchors act as a passing outlet further upfield. Do you find this?

My system is very similar to yours. I use control with some possession shouts, I am also not convinced by the narrow shout in your formation as it tends to make everything go through the middle and I like my wide players to spread the play sometimes.

It's the ap that holds up the ball not the af. And no holding up the ball does not restrict the IF, if he is intelligent he knows when to hold up and when to run at the teams, the only thing I found was that if I did not have the two players holding up the ball at points that the IF and AF would run in to blind alleys as they did not have enough support.

Your pass completion is poor, not only that but your turning over of possession with a control mentality might see counters that could leave you vulnerable. Somewhere, something is not working with your passing and I would find out what it is.

Thanks as well Vasilli.

Interesting that you use another DM - is your second DM a registra type player who steps up when in possession?

Anchor man - Another one to try out, but not sure how this might affect my possession as didn't think Anchors act as a passing outlet further upfield. Do you find this?

The DM beside the anchor is a DLP. He has run with ball though the centre which makes him play like a roaming playmaker. With him positioned deeper, he has the space the run at the defence and dictate play.

Hey guys,

I've implemented some of you suggestions (CMS, AP S, DMA, width Standard, AP hold up ball) however I'm still being slaughtered.

At the risk of sounding dramatic unless anyone has another other thoughts I think I'm going to be packing in FM once and for all.

Looking at your formation again, are you actually getting enough men/runners in the box? Your AP is likely to be a link man. Your WM is asked to stay wide and run the ball wide.

I do encourage my WM to roam, get forward more and sit narrower to provide me with a 3rd attacking threat like an IF. He still crosses as he is right footed but he also scores. He was my 3rd highest top scorer behind my striker and IF.

not sure there is much more help we can provide tbh, only other difference between yours and mine is I push up, close down much more and use an offside trap with excellent results defensively but I know my players strengths and weaknesses and solved those weakness by getting players in better suited to my system.

Have you had a look at the games where the passing is going wrong? I am not sure I would be happy with conceding 23 goals in 15 league games, that is just a personal preference but scoring does not seem to be your main issue and you have only failed to score in two league games.

The assymetric system is ideal imo for a possession game because your players are naturally set up to form passing triangles and yet in those screen shot games not only are your passing stats terrible but in that Blackburn game you were being dominated possession wise by a team with terrible passing stats themselves. The passing issues might seriously be what's ailing you defensively too, control strategty and players will push up and all it takes is the rpm or ap to make a pass that is picked off and boom the opposition counter and score because your WM and wingback are high up the pitch trying to help out in the attacking strata.

The issue cannot be resolved without knowing where you are going wrong, and FM is more than just tactics, it's players and their attributes and analysing and sometimes more analysing. I really struggled with mine but just kept picking away and picking away till eventually I refined it to what it is now. I hope you stick with it bud and if we can help and bounce ideas off each other we can certainly do that.

Hey Fhex.

Have you thought of uploading some PKM's? I wouldn't mind having a look if that would help you.

No offence to those giving advice but there's only so far you can go by looking at vague stats and going off your anecdotal evidence. It'd be much better if you could provide screenshots of specific problems or PKM's like I mentioned.

That said I will make a few observations. The point about runners attacking the box by vasilli is something I thought from the off when I saw your tactic. Your playmaker needs players moving around him (particularly ahead of him if you want to be attacking) and really he only has two forward options - the IF who is perhaps delaying his run due to his duty and the CF who is popping up wherever he wants. Apart from that his other main option is to dribble (on an attack duty). Do you want him doing that? What's the point in having a playmaker there? Was your intention to have him in space behind the striker? Or do you see him more as a deep attacker, in which case maybe his role is wrong?

An additional point I'd make is that your left side is very conservative and seems to just exist to provide wide support when you could probably afford another runner from deep for the playmaker to hit.

Anyway. PKM's would be brilliant if you could upload them. Ideally ones from before you changed the tactic. Maybe the Forest game as you seem to be pleased with the performance there.

Hey Fhex.

Have you thought of uploading some PPM's? I wouldn't mind having a look if that would help you.

No offence to those giving advice but there's only so far you can go by looking at vague stats and going off your anecdotal evidence. It'd be much better if you could provide screenshots of specific problems or PPM's like I mentioned.

That said I will make a few observations. The point about runners attacking the box by vasilli is something I thought from the off when I saw your tactic. Your playmaker needs players moving around him (particularly ahead of him if you want to be attacking) and really he only has two forward options - the IF who is perhaps delaying his run due to his duty and the CF who is popping up wherever he wants. Apart from that his other main option is to dribble (on an attack duty). Do you want him doing that? What's the point in having a playmaker there? Was your intention to have him in space behind the striker? Or do you see him more as a deep attacker, in which case maybe his role is wrong?

An additional point I'd make is that your left side is very conservative and seems to just exist to provide wide support when you could probably afford another runner from deep for the playmaker to hit.

Anyway. PPM'so would be brilliant if you could upload them. Ideally ones from before you changed the tactic. Maybe the Forest game as you seem to be pleased with the performance there.

I am guessing that's aimed at me, lets be frank I play the same way virtually and have no issues and secondly if you think the the issues with the possession and passing are anecdotal you are wrong, there is an obvious issue there. If you want to ask for ppm's fine but try to avoid the passive aggressive dig.

For the PPMs, I believe Austin has 'tries to beat the offside trap'. But anyways I've got this feeling you're talking about PKMs

-SnUrF

Lads, i'm sorry. Full of flu and typing on the train...

I meant "PKM's" as in those files that show the matches!

I am guessing that's aimed at me, lets be frank I play the same way virtually and have no issues and secondly if you think the the issues with the possession and passing are anecdotal you are wrong, there is an obvious issue there. If you want to ask for ppm's fine but try to avoid the passive aggressive dig.

Not aimed at anyone's advice in particular. I posted to see if I could help the OP as it seemed the changes he made hadn't really succeeded. I think we see that a lot on the forums; people post a tactic, get told what's "wrong", change it to how someone/a group of people told them, then find a whole new set of problems...

To provide proper help, people need to see the tactic in full flow, hence why I asked for PKM's (not PPM's )

Hey guys,

Very much appreciate the help one and all.

I've uploaded a few PKMs

"Good" matches - http://we.tl/p48Deiyvhx

Bad matches - http://we.tl/cUzfE7cN4E

Trying to establish the cause of the possession problems but finding it tough. The only things I've noticed so far:

> Players pinging the ball too early to an isolated forward

> Players dribbling and getting caught in possession (hence my original suggestion for 'Less Dribbling' TI)

But not sure if this is because of a lack of attacking options or their roles or both.

In the meantime I'm going to try:

> Changing AP A to AP S / AM A - Want this guy to get a playmaker but also get in the box now and again.

> Making more WM more aggressive with 'Gets further forward' and narrower by removing 'Stay wide' and 'Dribble wide'

Thanks again.

Looking at your formation again, are you actually getting enough men/runners in the box? Your AP is likely to be a link man. Your WM is asked to stay wide and run the ball wide.

I do encourage my WM to roam, get forward more and sit narrower to provide me with a 3rd attacking threat like an IF. He still crosses as he is right footed but he also scores. He was my 3rd highest top scorer behind my striker and IF.

Can you post your team and player instructions?

Can you post your team and player instructions?

Control, flexible

TIs - Prevent GK short distribution, shorting passing

PI

GK - Distribute to fullbacks, roll it out

WBs - Stay wider

MR - Dribble more(if you have a decent dribbler), roam from position, sit narrower

AMC - Dribble more, roam from position, more risky passes, move into channels

AML - Roam from position

FC - Roam from position

If I take a slender lead by the 75 mins against strong team or being an away team, I will switch to counter + slightly higher d-line. Just want my team to be abit more cautious but also don't want to sit too deep. Will switch to defend + slightly higher d-line + waste time by the 80th min.

Some extra TIs I could use are pass into space(against 4-2-3-1 teams) and exploit the flanks against teams with only 1 wide players.

Felley, sorry, I thought it was a bit odd suggesting to ignore the stats and then asking for ppm's, makes sense now.

I can't open the pkm's as I am in the Scottish boondocks where we have superslow broadband. It sounds like your issues are similar to what mine were, the IF and AF player receives it and runs in to blind alleys and gets disposed or shoots from distance which in turn wastes possession and turns it over. Both my assymetric issues(2015 too) were resolved by slowing the play down and having one or two players who can hold the ball up and allow a more patient system. Who is it who is pinging the ball up to the forwards too quickly?

In FM2015 the thing that made it literally all fall in to place was slowing the play down, it took a bit more persistence in 2016.

I like the AF but I want mine involved more in build ups and also to act as a spearhead when one of my full backs puts an early cross in to the box. In a single striker system that values possession I would not want my lone striker to have a beats offside ppm, two things will happen 1) he might not be as involved in the build up and 2) He will get caught offsides more often and you will turn over possession to the opposition.

Also is your GK set to distribute the ball short?

Edit, sorry I see your tempo is lower already.

Hey Fhex, just had a look at the first of the PKM's and i'm already seeing things that you should have a think about.

In the following screenshot QPR are attacking and the ball is at the feet of Austin.

I've picked this out because it's a scenario I noticed a couple of times and shows up the dysfunction of your tactic going forward. With Austin having a free role, he pops up all over the final third (mainly central of course) and routinely finds himself space to receive a pass. When this happens, the Inside Forward rarely fancies making a forward run probably due to his duty, whilst on the other side the Wide Midfielder is perhaps out of touch with play and also delays forward movement. The furthest player forward is actually the playmaker which seems counterintuitive as he will find it difficult to pull the strings with all the players he has to link with attempting to support him rather than the other way round.

This lack of thrust could be caused by your lower tempo, which is possibly stunting some incisiveness, but I think it is much more likely to be the distribution of roles. As I mentioned in a previous post, you should decide if and why you need a playmaker up front, particularly if you want to have one in the centre of midfield aswell. This moves me quite nicely on to the RPM actually and we'll look at him in this following screenshot.

A QPR attack has just broken down and the ball has been recycled to Sandro. As was mentioned earlier in the thread by Crazy Ivan, the RPM is just not consistent in his position. He'd be great if he had a partner in central midfield to play off but when he roams (and he roams mainly to the right) your midfield is wide open. Now obviously this can cause defensive problems with Sandro potentially having to deal with lots of runners, but it is also giving your attack problems. Once again your Advanced Playmaker is pushed up front unnecessarily denying you a link to the forward line and with the RPM roaming right the Wide Midfielder becomes very isolated. That hole in the middle is both exploitable space for the opposition and a vast expanse you need to negotiate to build attacks.

In addition to this gaping hole, I don't think the TI's are helping you. In the above screenshot where Sandro is on the ball, he has received it from a short bit of interplay between himself, the RPM and the WB(S). The "Play Out of Defence" TI is encouraging them to knock it about in deep areas when there are several longer range options on for them that would both bridge the large gap and relieve the defence. Long balls aren't always the devil. The "Control" mentality also gives defenders shorter passing so it stacks up a bit to give you severe disconnect between the back and the front of your formation.

I would honestly consider removing your TI's and just going with Control and Flexible as they seem to muddy the water a bit when it comes to analysis. Add them when you're looking to enhance something you see, or as a broad fix to a problem in your tactic. That said, it's up to you and this is just my ramblings. I'm actually dosed up on flu medication so apologies if this is a bit off the cuff and doesn't make sense!

In short:

• Your advanced playmaker needs to be deeper and have runners to hit with through balls and key passes
  
• The runners should be (IMO) the IF, WM and CF. They could all have attack duties but i'd be tempted to change the CF(A) to a DLF(A) as I think his runs would be more consistent.
  
• Your central midfielder (RPM) needs to be more disciplined in his position because he is both a link man and a first line of defence
  
• Don't worry too much about TI's for now, think about removing them while you get things right
  

Hey Fhex, just had a look at the first of the PKM's and i'm already seeing things that you should have a think about.

In the following screenshot QPR are attacking and the ball is at the feet of Austin.

I've picked this out because it's a scenario I noticed a couple of times and shows up the dysfunction of your tactic going forward. With Austin having a free role, he pops up all over the final third (mainly central of course) and routinely finds himself space to receive a pass. When this happens, the Inside Forward rarely fancies making a forward run probably due to his duty, whilst on the other side the Wide Midfielder is perhaps out of touch with play and also delays forward movement. The furthest player forward is actually the playmaker which seems counterintuitive as he will find it difficult to pull the strings with all the players he has to link with attempting to support him rather than the other way round.

This lack of thrust could be caused by your lower tempo, which is possibly stunting some incisiveness, but I think it is much more likely to be the distribution of roles. As I mentioned in a previous post, you should decide if and why you need a playmaker up front, particularly if you want to have one in the centre of midfield aswell. This moves me quite nicely on to the RPM actually and we'll look at him in this following screenshot.

A QPR attack has just broken down and the ball has been recycled to Sandro. As was mentioned earlier in the thread by Crazy Ivan, the RPM is just not consistent in his position. He'd be great if he had a partner in central midfield to play off but when he roams (and he roams mainly to the right) your midfield is wide open. Now obviously this can cause defensive problems with Sandro potentially having to deal with lots of runners, but it is also giving your attack problems. Once again your Advanced Playmaker is pushed up front unnecessarily denying you a link to the forward line and with the RPM roaming right the Wide Midfielder becomes very isolated. That hole in the middle is both exploitable space for the opposition and a vast expanse you need to negotiate to build attacks.

In addition to this gaping hole, I don't think the TI's are helping you. In the above screenshot where Sandro is on the ball, he has received it from a short bit of interplay between himself, the RPM and the WB(S). The "Play Out of Defence" TI is encouraging them to knock it about in deep areas when there are several longer range options on for them that would both bridge the large gap and relieve the defence. Long balls aren't always the devil. The "Control" mentality also gives defenders shorter passing so it stacks up a bit to give you severe disconnect between the back and the front of your formation.

I would honestly consider removing your TI's and just going with Control and Flexible as they seem to muddy the water a bit when it comes to analysis. Add them when you're looking to enhance something you see, or as a broad fix to a problem in your tactic. That said, it's up to you and this is just my ramblings. I'm actually dosed up on flu medication so apologies if this is a bit off the cuff and doesn't make sense!

In short:

• Your advanced playmaker needs to be deeper and have runners to hit with through balls and key passes
  
• The runners should be (IMO) the IF, WM and CF. They could all have attack duties but i'd be tempted to change the CF(A) to a DLF(A) as I think his runs would be more consistent.
  
• Your central midfielder (RPM) needs to be more disciplined in his position because he is both a link man and a first line of defence
  
• Don't worry too much about TI's for now, think about removing them while you get things right
  

Hey felley, this is amazing thank you very much for taking the time to do this.

I've started to play around with some of the suggestions on the thread and your observations have helped provide even more focus.

AP - I actually never even noticed that he was getting further than the striker so early so it's a real eye-opener. I've now changed this to an AP S. I'm sure Fer's PPM of "Get's forward whenever possible" isn't helping here but hopefully with a support duty he'll find the right balance between finding space further down the pitch but also getting into the box now and again.

CFA - Taking Crazy Ivan's lead I'd already changed this to a DFA and it seems to be working better. Like you say much more consistent in his positioning and runs. He's more a focal point.

IF - Will play about with support v attack. The other thing I notice from that screenshot is that the IF is very close to the striker. No doubt this is down to the "Sit narrower" shout i gave him because i wanted him to link play better and give the wingback space. Maybe i should remove this shout as well.

WM - I'm experimenting with a W Attack here to give more impetus. I see Ivan uses a modified WM A so might also take a look at that.

CM - I'm now playing with either a DLP S or CM S. Think the DLP S might be best as most disciplined.

TIs - I've striped these right back now. Currently only Control/Flexible/Shorter Passing. Shorter passing because players were still pumping the ball to quickly forward for my liking. Also experimenting with "Dribble less" to encourage more passing and movement.

Thanks again for you help, will let you know how I get on.