I decide to give in and ask for help on my Southampton save

Thing was, FM14 was a huge leap from the last FM i played, FM12. I learned a lot and was getting good at the game (well at least good enough since I was in my 4th season with Southampton sitting 2nd in the league), but my laptop got broken and since I re-installed the game early in the year, but only had time to start playing again last week. Unfortunately for me, it seems that I forgot everything about FM14 in the space of 4-5 months and now I can't seem to make my midfield create chances for my attacking players while my defence just keeps getting exposed. 6 league games into the season, I decided to just ask for opinion on what i am doing wrong.

Squad list and formation

Instructions

Results

It doesnt help that Lovren came back from international duty injured for 6 weeks and I have to work with the players that I got now since I blew my money on Ricky Alvarez and Eder Balanta.

Since my team has pretty solid AMC's who can play on the wings, and 3 competent strikers who are versatile as well, I was aiming to play with an upwards triangle and neglect a DM, but nothing seem to work. I tried reading through the other threads but none of them don't really suit me too much. Any criticism and advise is definitely welcomed since based on the results, I need as much help as I can.

Cheers everyone, looking forward to the feedback.

What kind of goals are you conceding (since looking at the fixtures, defending seems an issue)? Is it down the flanks, through the middle, over the top? I would guess the glanks will give you problems with no DM's and 2 fullbacks on Wingback with attack duty. You are going to have lots of players upfield, and your one "defend" duty in the middle is going to close down a lot and therefore likely also be caught upfield if others arent closing with him?

Also what did you have in mind for how you would attack? The "more direct passing" and "pass into space" hint at possibly a fast counter type approach? Are you seeing enough space available for your team as you transition when you watch the game/clips?

Sorry its not specific "change this" or "try that" advice, but i think its always best to clearly understand what you are trying to achieve, and also what you are actually seeing, before giving out advice on what to change!

OK, a few very striking things stand out.

1. Mentality and Philosophy

You're Southampton, you have a lot of players with outstanding potential, but they're not mature yet, so right now you don't have a side that can dominate teams.

This means you need to be more conservative in your approach otherwise you're going to get picked off on the counter and slaughtered.

However, you're playing with attacking mentality, which is tbh best used when you're chasing a game, not as a start tactic. Furthermore, the combination of fluid philosophy, together with the TIs of More Expressive and Roam from Position, is giving your players a massive amount of creative freedom that they don't have the ability to handle and they'll be all over the place.

My suggestion here is to drop mentality to, at most, control. Standard for most games, lower than that when you're playing the top sides. Get rid of the More Expressive and Roam from Position TIs.

2. Roles and duties

Lets start with your front 4

DLF - fine

Now, look across the 3 players behind your front man. Who is running to support him? Who is trying to get into the box?

Your AP might carry the ball, sometimes, but he won't often drive into the box from a through ball or cross.

Your IF(s) will slip the ball forward but not make many runs himself.

Your W(a) might get into the box on occasion, but not that often.

Really, you need some else to get into the box. I would consider changing the W to W(s) and the IF to IF(a).

Your back 4 should be ok. A lot of people will say have one of the WBs on (a) duty. I'm gonna stick my head on the block and say that I personally think in most situations that is unnecessary for forward movement, but can be very de-stabilising to the defence. Support duty is fine IMO. That said, Luke Shaw could work towards doing the job for you.

I've left your midfield until last, deliberately. I'll be honest I'm not convinced 2 CMs with no DM cover works all that well in FM14. But, for now, I think that BWM will get dragged all over the place so change to a DM(d).

Others will no doubt build on what I've said but I hope this is a useful start.

The biggest overall thing is to lower the expectations of what your team right now can do, and then lower mentalities etc. accordingly.

One more thing, its a hunch that I'm working with myself at the moment.

I think those two CMs need to protect your defence and your attacking threat should come from the wide areas.

Hence, I'd suggest TI Exploit the Flanks. If I'm right, your CM's will be more defensive, get closer to your DCs, hold the ball and knock it wide for your WBs, Ws and IFs to run on to.

That said, try all the stuff I said initially, first, then try this later as I'm not 100% sure on this bit of advice.

Quickly : too aggressive, too fast, too high, too expressive

Slowly : As said before, your team is probably too aggressive to play 'Attacking' considering the players you have and the players you play against. That said, you could get away with an 'Attacking' mentality but it would have to be compensated for by a combination of cautious formations/roles/duties/instructions. That is not the case right now. Another thing to consider is the 'fluid' fluidity might not get the best out of your DLP, which I imagine would be lurking with no support close to him, always forced to make longer and more risky passes, which might not be the best thing for a DLP in that sort of formation/tactic.

Also, the fluid fluidity encourages your players to have a high amount of creative freedom, and 'Be More Expressive' even more so, and that might be too much.

The other two things are combined in my view, and it's that your players are playing too fast and in too little space. The reasons for this :

'Attacking' encourages a very high line and a very fast tempo, the latter of which is further increased by 'More Direct Passing'. Considering your formation, your defenders' passing should be okay, but when the ball reaches your midfielders (very high), they will be asked to play extremely directly and fast, into space (and there will be none of it). I'm guessing this leads to a lot of passes out of play, but also to a lot of interceptions with many of your players caught up field, in turn leading to counterattacks against your (as stated by other posters) vulnerable defence.

What kind of goals are you conceding (since looking at the fixtures, defending seems an issue)? Is it down the flanks, through the middle, over the top? I would guess the glanks will give you problems with no DM's and 2 fullbacks on Wingback with attack duty. You are going to have lots of players upfield, and your one "defend" duty in the middle is going to close down a lot and therefore likely also be caught upfield if others arent closing with him?

Also what did you have in mind for how you would attack? The "more direct passing" and "pass into space" hint at possibly a fast counter type approach? Are you seeing enough space available for your team as you transition when you watch the game/clips?

Sorry its not specific "change this" or "try that" advice, but i think its always best to clearly understand what you are trying to achieve, and also what you are actually seeing, before giving out advice on what to change!

Most of the goals are the opponents just running through my defence (usually on a counter from one of many failed attacks) like there wasnt any defence at all. Actually my wingbacks are on automatic whatever that may mean, always thought that meant alternating from A to S and doing the opposite of the other wingback. If I put my DLP on defend duty, would that help?

What I want is an attacking 4 with interchangable roles and score lots of sweaty goals like in FM12, or just simply easy build up play. Should I instead use "retain possession" then? Because I can't seem to create enough space and the striker keeps getting isolated.

OK, a few very striking things stand out.

1. Mentality and Philosophy

You're Southampton, you have a lot of players with outstanding potential, but they're not mature yet, so right now you don't have a side that can dominate teams.

This means you need to be more conservative in your approach otherwise you're going to get picked off on the counter and slaughtered.

However, you're playing with attacking mentality, which is tbh best used when you're chasing a game, not as a start tactic. Furthermore, the combination of fluid philosophy, together with the TIs of More Expressive and Roam from Position, is giving your players a massive amount of creative freedom that they don't have the ability to handle and they'll be all over the place.

My suggestion here is to drop mentality to, at most, control. Standard for most games, lower than that when you're playing the top sides. Get rid of the More Expressive and Roam from Position TIs.

2. Roles and duties

Lets start with your front 4

DLF - fine

Now, look across the 3 players behind your front man. Who is running to support him? Who is trying to get into the box?

Your AP might carry the ball, sometimes, but he won't often drive into the box from a through ball or cross.

Your IF(s) will slip the ball forward but not make many runs himself.

Your W(a) might get into the box on occasion, but not that often.

Really, you need some else to get into the box. I would consider changing the W to W(s) and the IF to IF(a).

Your back 4 should be ok. A lot of people will say have one of the WBs on (a) duty. I'm gonna stick my head on the block and say that I personally think in most situations that is unnecessary for forward movement, but can be very de-stabilising to the defence. Support duty is fine IMO. That said, Luke Shaw could work towards doing the job for you.

I've left your midfield until last, deliberately. I'll be honest I'm not convinced 2 CMs with no DM cover works all that well in FM14. But, for now, I think that BWM will get dragged all over the place so change to a DM(d).

Others will no doubt build on what I've said but I hope this is a useful start.

The biggest overall thing is to lower the expectations of what your team right now can do, and then lower mentalities etc. accordingly.

My WBs are on automatic mode actually. I definitely start taking your advice but havent got to the game yet, just moved BWM from MCL to DMC and kept MCR so it would look slightly uneven, but I just remembered to using that midfield shape before my laptop broke. And should I keep my AMC on AP(a)?

And your other post, hows the hunch going?

Lower the mentality and the fluidity. Get rid of the all your TIs except for work ball into box.

I haven't played the 4-2-3-1 this FM, but what I've noticed playing against it is this:

1. it's a formation that isn't based around creating lots of space, and as you can see above, with so many players packing the opposition's area, there isn't much space to be had. It's a formation that's strengths lie in the passing triangles created by all the players in the opposition's area. So I would definitely get rid of "pass into space"

As jpcote and others have also said, with an attacking mentality, you're going to be pushing the opposition high up, so you're not going to be getting much space anyway.

2. In this formation, it's good to have the striker on an attacking role. He's not really a lone striker, due to all the midfield support he has. You don't need him dropping deep, unless a big part of your plan is for the striker to play in the attacking IF through the defensive line, which I don't think you are. Having a striker on attack pushes the defensive line back, which allows your CAM to wreck havoc, especially if you want him as a Playmaker. Also, with an attacking striker, the striker is going to be in the 18-yard box, which means you have a constant presence to which to send crossing into.

3. your midfield base definitely needs to be more solid. DLP defend with a CM support looks good, especially on a lower mentality.

Also I've had a lot of success with Shaw. He's fantastic for my Manchester United team. I've got him on WM support, with PI "dribble more". With this, it makes him quite attacking, but not ridiculously so, and he really can run into the opposition area and send in some really juicy crosses.

Most of the goals are the opponents just running through my defence (usually on a counter from one of many failed attacks) like there wasnt any defence at all. Actually my wingbacks are on automatic whatever that may mean, always thought that meant alternating from A to S and doing the opposite of the other wingback. If I put my DLP on defend duty, would that help?

What I want is an attacking 4 with interchangable roles and score lots of sweaty goals like in FM12, or just simply easy build up play. Should I instead use "retain possession" then? Because I can't seem to create enough space and the striker keeps getting isolated.

"Automatic" means the duty matches your overall mentality. So when your overall mentality is attacking, those 2 players take on an attacking duty. Probably the reason they are getting through on the counter like there isnt any defence, is that often times there wont be other than the 2 CB

Other than that, i would think about incremental changes - lots of good advice and options here from others, but for it to be effective you probably need to change 2 or 3 things at most at a time, then watch the game to see the effect it has. The tweak more as required.

Otherwise, sadly, if you just apply all the changes suggested you might win a few games, but when you find that it needs tweaked again or you come up against a team which has a plan to "counter" your plan, you will not be in a position to understand how to effectively change it

With your attacking plan, appreciate that Lord Rowell has mentioned about getting people into the box. There is some interesting discussion in other threads about whether its really about "getting men into the box". You can score plenty with just one man in the box, but you do very much need is a clear plan and vision of how you will score goals. What type of goal do you expect to score? Think about that then visualise how it can come off? EG if you are hoping to score from a great diagonal pass in between defenders (aka "pass into space") then its not likely to happen as your striker is dropping deep and your winger likely to wide to get onto such a ball, with no one from midfield likely to get ahead of the ball with the current set up.

Sorry its not straight advice, but for all the brilliant advice you can get on here i really do believe the best type is to learn to be able to help yourself by understanding the game. Its not easy and i am still learning it myself, but it makes a huge difference when you are truley understanding why you are changing something and what impact it is going to have on your team, rather than just making a change because someone suggested it on here

My WBs are on automatic mode actually. I definitely start taking your advice but havent got to the game yet, just moved BWM from MCL to DMC and kept MCR so it would look slightly uneven, but I just remembered to using that midfield shape before my laptop broke. And should I keep my AMC on AP(a)?

And your other post, hows the hunch going?

I know your WBs are on automatic mode and that's fine because as has already been said, their duty/mentality will change in line with the team mentality you have.

Re. your AP role, I'd try different combinations of attack/support, in tandem with the duty of your striker and see what works.

I can't add any more on my hunch yet as I posted late at night, went to bed and haven't played since.

I'd suggest, for now, follow the advice you've been given here which is all good and I think we're mostly saying the same things. Then maybe test my hunch afterwards if you want - though this does also depend on opposition formation so maybe leave it alone for now until you've got your basic formation right.

These are great advice by the way. Thanks so much to everyone

Went with a few things from the suggestions - mainly LordRowell's as he gave the most input. I won 2-1 against West Ham (with 2 goals disallowed and conceded a light penalty), 4-0 win against Norwich, 0-0 against Arsenal (who are struggling btw, 17th when I played them), and conceded a last minute equalizer to league-leaders Chelsea which ended 2-2.

While the results have been an improvement, unbeaten in 4, I did somehow get overrun in midfield by both Arsenal and Chelsea. Boruc got tendonitis, so I had to go for Adan as well. My starting mentality were all "Counter" but I can't seem to make my midfield triangle tick much as they lose possession most of the time, which unsurprisingly ends with the ball not getting to the box in time and my striker will somehow - still be isolated. Will definitely seek more advice on this, but in the mean time I'll try different roles for my AMC-ST pairing because this could turn very deadly in the future.

My formation now looks a bit like this

My next question would most likely be, is it because the starting position of Wanyama and Schneiderlin that my midfield still gets overrun?

Your midfield partnership probably isn't working because they're too far apart. Wanyama is sitting deep, whereas Schneiderlin is up high. This creates a big gap between the two. Further compounding this problem is Wanyama doesn't have the technical ability to consistently pass up to Schneiderlin - his passing is pretty shocking. This means he'll probably be turning over a lot of possession, and in a dangerous area too.

Put them both in CM, with Schneiderlin dictating play as a DLP defend, and Wanyama as a wrecking ball BWM.

I still believe you should make Lambert a Attacking Forward, not a support forward. He doesn't need to drop deep to receive because Lallana is already there. He should be on the defensive line, ready to recieve Lallana's dangerous passes.

Chelsea and Arsenal are very good sides and you are, with your present squad, likely to struggle against them. This isn't necessarily down to tactics as such (though I'll come to this in a minute), but simply because they have better players than you.

With your 4-2-3-1 base tactic, it sounds like its producing sensible results on the whole so I wouldn't change much.

In games when you're losing the ball through misplaced passes, you could try going for shorter passing, lower tempo, or both.

Going back to your being overrun in midfield by the top sides, have you considered that when you play sides that are better than you, you might want to develop another tactic that is more compact perhaps e.g. something like a 4-1-4-1?

Also, don't bother too much with creating tactics that work well for those players.. You will sell most of your first team guys in the 2014 summer transfer window. Haha just joking around.

My first thought is that you are overrun in midfield simply because you are set up to be. You have only 2 players really covering midfield ground no matter what happens, and even though you have good players in there, a lot of the other teams do too. I really can't picture how your team could transition well from attack to defence right now, and even the defence-attack transition might not be awesome... Excuse me I'm really tired so I'm gonna go get some sleep and will try to come back with better advice..

Hi everyone thanks for all the amazing input. With all the tweaks you all suggested, added by a little of my own twist, and a few signings, I managed to win the league in my 3rd season and reached the Champions league final (only to lose to Chelsea in extra time). A couple of good runs in the cups as well and I even managed to win the Capital One cup in my 2nd season. But now I have a glaring problem that I would like to share. Maybe this has been covered by everyone else but none of the solutions have worked so I decided to give in once more.

Although I only have 3 first team strikers (An England regular in Jay Rodriguez, an Irish national in Shane Long I signed for jokes, and an average Ryan Seager), they have a low scoring record I must admit. But this season, after Rickie Lambert retired and selling Osvaldo because he got injured all the time + high wages, I'm left with these three and while in the previous season they still managed to score a handful of important goals, this season seems a bit different. I'ts not that they miss chances as will, its as if my players just can't seem to find them and as a result they get neglected up front. These are the tactics that I use.

And my striker's records are as follows

Even as goals are coming from mostly of Schurrle and Markovic, I would love for my midfielders to supply my striker to get into decent position to shoot. What roles should I put my front four so all of them get an equal amount of chances every game? Any input is helpful. Thanks for helping

Most of the goals are the opponents just running through my defence (usually on a counter from one of many failed attacks) like there wasnt any defence at all. Actually my wingbacks are on automatic whatever that may mean, always thought that meant alternating from A to S and doing the opposite of the other wingback. If I put my DLP on defend duty, would that help?

What I want is an attacking 4 with interchangable roles and score lots of sweaty goals like in FM12, or just simply easy build up play. Should I instead use "retain possession" then? Because I can't seem to create enough space and the striker keeps getting isolated.

This is probably because there wasn't much defence at all. You were making your players play hard, rushed, ambitious balls and with a lot of bodies forward you allowed a lot of good counter attacking chances. And that left you with next to no defence to stop those attacks.

Since then of course you have performed a U-turn on your tactics and it's looking a lot better. But... You may suffer from lack of vertical movement from midfield with that defensive double pivot. Your striker will be playing high up and may get isolated from play. Your AM's are largely going to stay between the striker and the double pivot, with the exception of Schürrle.

If you really want that interchangeable fluid front 4 you should look to involve the striker more in the build up. Any support duty will achieve this, but then you may want to consider having your AMC in closer support of the forward. Any of the non-playmaking roles should work towards this (AM and SS being the only two, right?). (I'd be inclined to try Lallana as a wide playmaker, Schürrle in the middle just behind Rodriguez and making Markovic more attacking.)

Defensively, in my opinion, a system with only 2 true midfielders is always going to struggle when the opponent gets past the front 4. You could experiment with specific marking duties for some of the front four to make it harder to build up moves. Wide forwards being the prime candidates for this.

That advice actually helped a lot. The SS behind a support-role striker, at least theres more variety than just Schurrle and Markovic just hitting the sidenet from absolutely impossible angles. Actually Lallana isnt my first choice, i was rotating that week. My choices in that position are Ramirez and Cabella. Also, i got fed giving Long and Rodriguez chances so I decided to buy another striker with a better rating and change the front four roles around. Their performing better, but I hope this sustains.

Defensively I have no major problems now as I dont concede that many anyway, so for now I'll be sticking with this system in midfield and defence but I'll definitely experiment here and there if things go balls up.

I would love more advice on my team because you can never stop learning and improving

Well it turns out it only help for like 2 games or something, now I'm back to where I am. Im playing like an AVB side where everyone has a good game except for my striker as he gets isolated all the time. I need my striker to score goals but for the other 4 to contribute in attacking as well like the attack Brendan Rodgers side had where although Suarez (IF/A) scores most of the goals, Sturridge chips is loads of them as well (not sure his role is if translated IRL) with an AM giving through balls to Sturridge also a winger crossing for both the IF and Striker to score.

Seriously need help guys. Thanks for any advice i could get.

One things strikes me from your set-up, it's the combination of :

a) 4231 with CM

b) Fluid

c) DLP-D in CM spot + BWM-D alongside

d) Play out of Defense + Shorter Passing + Retain Possession.

that has the following consequences in the tactical framework :

1. Your DLP-D and your BWM-D must have a very (I really mean very) short passing

2. Your DLP-D is likely to have a very (very) low mentality here, from FM13 I would estimate his mentality to counter base mentality (8) & Fluid fluidity (-2) & DLP in CM spot (-2) at 4. AP-S should be 8+2-2 (AP-S in AM spot) at 8.

which may cause this kind of problem :

1. Lack of passing penetration from the dual CM, either caused by mentality or creative freedom (BWM) so hard to reach on the front 4 which is supposed to be the main attacking force here + focus on the flanks so that the DLP-D (which is not the main playmaker here, it's the AP-S as he is the highest on the pitch) will not influence game at all.

2. May have problem to reach the dual CM with "Shorter passing + Retain + Play out of defense" from the back 4. Relying on the passing on advancing with the ball of the WB-S

Possible counter-measures :

1. Try out a DLP-S to increase his CF. Ditch the AP-S in AMC to make it the main playmaker and replace it with a standard Attacking Midfielder - Support. Eventually, make the DLP-S and AP-S to increase mentality and use the "hold position" instruction to make it act like a DLP-S.

2. Maybe get rid of Play out of defense.

Im copying this from the stupid question thread

Here are my player instructions

AF(A)= Move Into Channels

AP(S)= More Direct Passes, Dribbles More

IF(A)= Dribble More, Pass it Shorter, Shoot Less Often

W(S)= None

DLP(D)= Pass it Shorter, Close Down More, Tackle Harder

BWM(D)= Shoot Less Often, Pass it Shorter

Both WBs(Auto)= Dribble More

Both CBs(D)= Pass it Shorter

GK= Take Quick Throws.

Hold Position is "Already in use" as FM would say for AP(A/S)

My striker doesnt even have a chance to miss because he rarely gets the ball in the final third. When he does, he passes it to one of AML/AMR/AMC. Sometimes it leads to a goal, sometimes not, but whats the point of having a striker? I want my striker to contribute to the goals directly either scoring or making them (mostly scoring).

And yes my CMs passing are short and simple just the way I like it. Their safe and protective to give license for the other four to do their jobs. The CMs, especially my DLP, will pick a pass to one of the four which then will pass around until it reaches the box (or as I would want to imagine it). Need help because making the DLP-s is actually making it worse. Im currently content with my back 6 + AML/AMR. Im just fed up trying to find the best combo for both my AMC & ST to do well each game. Its either one shines and the other stink, or just both failing to turn up, especially my ST not getting chances as the wingers will rather pass the ball into the AMC outside the box rather than the ST unmarked in the box.

I also want my AMC to pick through passes to the striker who just ran past his marker but instead he choses to pass it to my IF(A) or W(S) who will then just bang it into the side net when my ST is in the 6 yard box. What instructions and role combos should I use? Because the combo of "Stay Wider" and "Looks to Pass rather than Shoot" PPM doesnt stop my winger to miss chances.