Losing vs the 'big teams'

I'm managing Huddersfield in the Prem and finished 4th in my 5th overall season. However my major barrier to winning trophies is the fact that I struggle immensely vs the 'big teams' (City, Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs).

I seem to win the majority of my other games comfortably, yet when I come up against a strong team I play really poorly and end up getting beat comfortably, despite being in good form/morale.

I don't like to mess around with my tactics too much, they work fine against other similar reputation teams, and I would say my squad quality is pretty similar to the likes of Arsenal/Spurs/Liverpool. How can I get my team performing against the bigger teams and actually take points off them? Is there a certain team talk that helps get your team motivated for these matches? I've just lost 2-1 to City and 1-0 to Arsenal (both at home). The game seems quite close when I watch but just can't get wins/avoid defeats.

aspink3. Please don't take this the wrong way, but isn't it absolutely spot on that you might have to do something differently to beat a similar ability team, than you do when dispatching poorer quality teams? I would say that the judge on whether a tactic is "good" or not, is whether you win the games. Your tactic would seem to be "good" against similar reputation teams, but for whatever reason if you keep getting "bad" results against the bigger teams, then at what point do you say that you tactic is not "good" in these games?

My advice is to go to the Tactics forum. I am not talking about starting from scratch, but maybe a tiny tweak is all you need.

The reality is that there simply isn't a quick fix in terms of team-talks or media comments to fix this.

I get your point, and during my 4 years since promotion I have looked at adopting a system that can get points off the bigger teams. On occassion a more defensive approach has held them off and I've even managed to get 3 points from them. However, I now believe that my team is capable of matching these teams without having to approach fixtures as the underdog (I was expected to win my last game vs Arsenal).

Particularly at home, I feel as though I should be playing my most familiar tactics which usually create plenty of chances. The games are close but I end up losing games I should have drawn and drawing games I should have won. It may just require a tweak, but I don't remember seeing Liverpool 'tweak' their tactics when City came to visit last season. If you have a proven method you should back it, right?

It may just require a tweak, but I don't remember seeing Liverpool 'tweak' their tactics when City came to visit last season. If you have a proven method you should back it, right?

With respect, Liverpool constantly "tweaked" their tactics last season.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2014/apr/20/liverpool-norwich-brendan-rodgers-tactics

Your problem could be literally anything. We have been given very, very little information about your team and tactical set-up. Most likely it's a tactical problem, because you can't necessarily approach the weaker teams the same way as the "big" teams. The space available to you to exploit will be very different.

It could also be that your player "go missing" in the big games, because they have a low rating for Important Matches. Team talks could also help the situation along, but unless you get team talks spectacularly wrong, they're not the reason for you losing.

That seems in reference to tweaking within the match. They start fast, get a goal, and then adjust. Which I would normally do if I can get that goal. In general, Liverpool used the best players they had available and adjusted to their strengths which proved successful.

I'm just annoyed that I will be on top of these 'big' teams, only to have a striker not play well, or have a defensive lapse late on. I have developed quite a young squad, but they are getting better each season and should be ready to take on these teams by now.

Your problem could be literally anything. We have been given very, very little information about your team and tactical set-up. Most likely it's a tactical problem, because you can't necessarily approach the weaker teams the same way as the "big" teams. The space available to you to exploit will be very different.

It could also be that your player "go missing" in the big games, because they have a low rating for Important Matches. Team talks could also help the situation along, but unless you get team talks spectacularly wrong, they're not the reason for you losing.

I didn't really want to go into tactics too much at this stage, I was just wondering whether anyone does anything in particular to get the best out of players in these matches. If it does appear to be tactical, which it may, then I will look into that. As I have a generally successful system, I didn't really want to go changing things if i didnt have to

I didn't really want to go into tactics too much at this stage, I was just wondering whether anyone does anything in particular to get the best out of players in these matches. If it does appear to be tactical, which it may, then I will look into that. As I have a generally successful system, I didn't really want to go changing things if i didnt have to

What exactly is your problem vs the big teams other than you not winning, obviously? Are you struggling with possession? Are you doing okay, but not putting chances way? ......

Beyond ensuring you play the players who are on form, and with good morale who have performed for you through the season, there isn't a lot more you can do without tweaking the tactics.

I tend to play with two different tactics - one which has a more open style of play, enabling me to beat the 'lesser' teams - and one which is a more defensive, possession style tactic which seems to grind out a good result here and there against the bigger teams. Thus far as Wigan, I got promoted as Runner Up and then finished 8th in my first Premiership season. I've had back to back wins against Man Utd and Man City. It's the Stokes and Swanseas of the world that I seem to struggle against!

What exactly is your problem vs the big teams other than you not winning, obviously? Are you struggling with possession? Are you doing okay, but not putting chances way? ......

An example result:

Huddersfield 1-2 Man City

Possession 58% - 42%

Shots 12 - 7

On target 6 - 5

I had just lost 4-1 to them away in the league so I knew I needed to make changes. I pressed higher to stop them passing out from the back, and wanted to retain possession and pass shorter to avoid giving them the ball back easily. In that sense, I kept the ball as I wanted to, restricted their attempts and created a decent amount myself. Yet I concede a couple of soft goals despite the game going to plan

An example result:

Huddersfield 1-2 Man City

Possession 58% - 42%

Shots 12 - 7

On target 6 - 5

I had just lost 4-1 to them away in the league so I knew I needed to make changes. I pressed higher to stop them passing out from the back, and wanted to retain possession and pass shorter to avoid giving them the ball back easily. In that sense, I kept the ball as I wanted to, restricted their attempts and created a decent amount myself. Yet I concede a couple of soft goals despite the game going to plan

The stats you've given aren't nearly enough to tell a picture of how well you played. You selected retain possession and based on the stats, you've done that, but it doesn't say where you had possession. It doesn't help if all your decent possession is in your own half, for instance.

They seem to have done well enough to have 5 out of 7 shots of target while you only had half your shots on target. Again though, it doesn't tell us about the quality of these chances/shots.

This is why I asked you questions based on what you saw, rather than stats.

Edit: By hassling, do you mean the team instruction "hassle opponents"? That could be very dangerous if you're not set up well as it's an extreme shout.

The stats you've given aren't nearly enough to tell a picture of how well you played. You selected retain possession and based on the stats, you've done that, but it doesn't say where you had possession. It doesn't help if all your decent possession is in your own half, for instance.

They seem to have done well enough to have 5 out of 7 shots of target while you only had half your shots on target. Again though, it doesn't tell us about the quality of these chances/shots.

This is why I asked you questions based on what you saw, rather than stats.

Edit: By hassling, do you mean the team instruction "hassle opponents"? That could be very dangerous if you're not set up well as it's an extreme shout.

You simply asked if I was struggling with possession. In general, having 58% vs Man City was a successful effort in reducing their ability to control the match. Yes I used the team instruction, I don't really know how else to effectively chase the ball down as a team in the opponents half

You simply asked if I was struggling with possession.

My main question was : What exactly is your problem vs the big teams other than you not winning, obviously?

The follow-up questions were just examples of the kind of answers I wanted to try and help.

My main question was : What exactly is your problem vs the big teams other than you not winning, obviously?

The follow-up questions were just examples of the kind of answers I wanted to try and help.

Ah ok.

In general terms it seems like I create chances and reduce the opposition chances but the overall performance level is low and I dont end up scoing the goals I need to win matches. I've not done a full statistical analysis to see if something is fundamentally wrong, I just notice that performance levels appear to be lower despite creating chances

Ah ok.

In general terms it seems like I create chances and reduce the opposition chances but the overall performance level is low and I dont end up scoing the goals I need to win matches. I've not done a full statistical analysis to see if something is fundamentally wrong, I just notice that performance levels appear to be lower despite creating chances

It's more than likely tactical, but as I said, it may be that some of your players are lacking in the "Important Matches" attribute. Maybe a combination of both! I would have mentioned consistency too, since it's a young squad, but I since it only happens against the big teams, I don't think it is that.

aspink3. You are the guy who recently posted this.

My striker won the premier league golden boot with 24 league goals, but I was often frustrated with the amout of sitters he missed. In one match he scored 4 within 34 minutes, another he scored 5 in 63 minutes. However in many games he wouldn't score at all despite being having many chances to score in each game. I really have no idea why he played like Ronaldo one game then looked like a youth team debutant the next :/

This doesn't seem to be a sudden change. You have been having issues converting chances for a while.

In fact this whole thread suggests that although you have done well, there may be underlying issues.

That other thread highlighted that you were struggling in games that you were unable to "control" and be dominant in. Is it fair to say that it is a problem that you have perhaps been unable to resolve?

I noticed this when I was improving my team to champions. We were one of the best teams in the league, but going against the likes of Arsenal and Man Utd was always very tricky and I always knew I might get well beaten as much as I might get a tight win. I eventually realised after a while that their players that caused problems always had high numbers in Jumping, Strength and/or Pace.

That was my epiphany. From then on, my criteria for buying players was added to: they had to have at least 15 in Pace, Strength or Jumping, preferably all 3, and especially if they had a rating of 18 or above. One season, I won every competition I was in, and a lot of goals came from headers (including the final goal, the 1-0 winner of the CL final that wrapped it all up).

In fact my selection policy for matches (as I had at least two top players for each position, being a top side) involved looking at the opposition players and writing down their Pace, Jumping and Strength stats. I would then pick the players opposite them that either matched or beat their attributes.

Particularly at home, I feel as though I should be playing my most familiar tactics which usually create plenty of chances. The games are close but I end up losing games I should have drawn and drawing games I should have won. It may just require a tweak, but I don't remember seeing Liverpool 'tweak' their tactics when City came to visit last season. If you have a proven method you should back it, right?

Against larger sides, they tend to play something like Counter with a more direct build-up relying on the pace of their forwards. Against smaller sides that sit deep (and Chelsea), they play something more like Control. Both will result in fast-paced attacks, but Counter is based on attacking space behind the defence while their Control approach is based on using more technical players like Coutinho and Allen to pick apart the opposition with a higher press and quick combination play. Both involve a fast attack, but the approach is very different.

There is a difference between tactics and style. Liverpool prefer a fast, technical style of play, but you can incorporate that style into multiple tactical frameworks.

Against larger sides, they tend to play something like Counter with a more direct build-up relying on the pace of their forwards. Against smaller sides that sit deep (and Chelsea), they play something more like Control. Both will result in fast-paced attacks, but Counter is based on attacking space behind the defence while their Control approach is based on using more technical players like Coutinho and Allen to pick apart the opposition with a higher press and quick combination play. Both involve a fast attack, but the approach is very different.

There is a difference between tactics and style. Liverpool prefer a fast, technical style of play, but you can incorporate that style into multiple tactical frameworks.

Thats an interesting observation. I managed to pick up this rapid striker, but he never seems to have space behind because I like to control the game. If I decide to use a more counter attacking strategy, what instructions are best to get balls in behind defence where my striker will easily win the race? (Finishing the chances is another matter!)

aspink3. You are the guy who recently posted this.

This doesn't seem to be a sudden change. You have been having issues converting chances for a while.

In fact this whole thread suggests that although you have done well, there may be underlying issues.

That other thread highlighted that you were struggling in games that you were unable to "control" and be dominant in. Is it fair to say that it is a problem that you have perhaps been unable to resolve?

In the new season I developed new tactics, where goals have come from many positions. Last season my top scored had 31 overall, but nobody else had more than 4. This season my top scorer has 24 (22 apps), then the next are 13 (22), 9 (17), 4 (15). I feel that I have addressed last seasons problem of being 'one-dimensional', while retaining my strikers ability to score just as regularly.

With that in mind, last season I struggled against all teams for the sole reason that my striker didn't always take his chances. This season I have been able to score plenty more goals vs the 'weaker' teams without relying on one player (who has now been on international duty for 2 months :@).

As a team I am not performing with the system that gives me plenty of goals, so I am looking to make subtle changes that make me more prolific when playing the stronger teams in the league.

That was my epiphany. From then on, my criteria for buying players was added to: they had to have at least 15 in Pace, Strength or Jumping, preferably all 3, and especially if they had a rating of 18 or above. One season, I won every competition I was in, and a lot of goals came from headers (including the final goal, the 1-0 winner of the CL final that wrapped it all up).

In fact my selection policy for matches (as I had at least two top players for each position, being a top side) involved looking at the opposition players and writing down their Pace, Jumping and Strength stats. I would then pick the players opposite them that either matched or beat their attributes.

This is something that I have looked at in my recruitment policy, particularly within the defence. I have tall centre backs with good strength, heading and jumping reach, and I have noticed I'm conceding far less from corners/crosses. However I am disappointed at the lack of goals I score from corners, usually aiming them at the near post to my best header.

Also, I have top quality coaches for fitness/strength categories, and some of the youth players who I brought in at 16 now have 16/17 strength/stamina 4 years later. These guys should be able to compete physically with strong opposition players as a result, so I don't think physical attributes are my downfall.

This is something that I have looked at in my recruitment policy, particularly within the defence. I have tall centre backs with good strength, heading and jumping reach, and I have noticed I'm conceding far less from corners/crosses. However I am disappointed at the lack of goals I score from corners, usually aiming them at the near post to my best header.

Also, I have top quality coaches for fitness/strength categories, and some of the youth players who I brought in at 16 now have 16/17 strength/stamina 4 years later. These guys should be able to compete physically with strong opposition players as a result, so I don't think physical attributes are my downfall.

Stamina is irrelevant, Strength is only slightly important. Jumping is #1, Pace is also magnificient if you let your players chase balls. You win aerial battles with Jumping, mostly. You have midfielders and strikers with a jumping of 18+ and they will keep heading on balls to their teammates, balls will be 80-20s not 50-50s.