Chance creation in 4-4-1-1

[HibeeRyan]

Hi guys,

 

I am looking for a little help in regards to my current tactic at Hibernian. It is set out as below:

 

I am currently 4th in the league just coming out of the winter break now my problem is I am struggling to create clear chances, not CCC in game but just from what I see in game, the striker is often the only player in the box for crosses which I find a bit strange and just in general it feels like I have a problem getting into dangerous positions.

I'm just looking for any insights to how I can maybe make it more clinical and/or defensively solid (if that would help to maybe create more space)

Thanks in advance.

[HibeeRyan]

I thought I should add some more context and have decided to use my most recent fixture against Ross County at home to do this. The game ended in a 1-0 defeat thanks to a ball over the top of my defence.

As you can see from the stats we dominated the game in terms of possession and shots however didn't really create any clear cut chances, and I personally only saw one chance on comprehensive highlights that I would class as a decent oppurtunity.

 

However when I breakdown the efforts that we had I don't see any that are overly ambitious which will inflate the overall amount. I feel I am missing something here and just looking for some advice on how I can turn this possession and shots into meaningful efforts on goal as it feels we are severely lacking.

[Experienced Defender]

38 minutes ago, HibeeRyan said:

Your tactic has a number of weaknesses IMHO. But speaking specifically of good chances (CCC or HC), if you want ti improve the likelihood of them happening, these are the most logical tweaks you should consider:

- be less aggressive in your manner of defending to allow more space for your forwards to operate and potentially take advantage of (tone down pressing intensity and/or drop the LOE a bit)

- do not play the lone striker as an AF, especially in this type of tactic, because AF tends to struggle for space against deep and packed defenses (change him into either PF on attack or DLF on attack)

There will probably be needed some more tweaks, but first try with these two.

[HibeeRyan]

23 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Your tactic has a number of weaknesses IMHO. But speaking specifically of good chances (CCC or HC), if you want ti improve the likelihood of them happening, these are the most logical tweaks you should consider:

- be less aggressive in your manner of defending to allow more space for your forwards to operate and potentially take advantage of (tone down pressing intensity and/or drop the LOE a bit)

- do not play the lone striker as an AF, especially in this type of tactic, because AF tends to struggle for space against deep and packed defenses (change him into either PF on attack or DLF on attack)

There will probably be needed some more tweaks, but first try with these two.

I will start with dropping the LOE and changing the striker to a PF, I did want to play with a CF but the standard of striker I have at my disposal atm isn't at that level but that is where I wanted to end up.

I would be interested in your opinion of the weaknesses of the tactic as I am always looking to improve.

here is what I'm currently using after implementing your changes, I've flipped the tactic about just due to my left winger being a better IW than the one on the right side and also changed the IWB that would've therefore been on the right side into a FB(s) as I found him and the BWM were getting in each others way. The only PI I have on is roam from position on the AM.

Edited May 22, 2020 by HibeeRyan

[Experienced Defender]

12 hours ago, HibeeRyan said:

 

12 hours ago, HibeeRyan said:

I would be interested in your opinion of the weaknesses of the tactic as I am always looking to improve

Okay mate, I'll tell you what I personally would look to change in your tactic and why - apart from the already mentioned aggressive defending - which is based on my experience and approach to tactics:

- Your instructions suggest you want to play possession-oriented football, but formations such as 4411 or 442 are not really optimal for such a style (they work better for more direct styles)

- Despite using a holding midfielder (DLP) in MCL, your left flank is potentially - and needlessly - very vulnerable defensive-wise with both wide players being played on attack duties, especially as you don't have a DM to protect the defense more directly + using the overlap left instruction, which increases the individual mentality of your already very attack-minded fullback + you play him in a WB role (as opposed to FB)

- Even if you don't care too much about the defensive vulnerability on the left, such a setup is not good for your attacking play in terms of space creation and exploitation either (by changing the duty of your IW into support instead of attack, you would get a natural overlap without the need to use the overlap team instruction, which would also create better interaction not just with the fullback but also the DLP and AMC)

- If you still want to have a wide midfielder on attack duty, the one on the right flank would make a lot more sense, not only because he has a BWM and a conservative fullback on his side, but also relative to use of space

So summarizing the above, this is what "my" setup would look like:

PFat

AMat

IWsu    DLPde   BWMsu   Wat

FBat      CD       CD       FBsu

That would be considerably more balanced and sensible. However, there remains the potential problem of your possession-friendly team instructions being sort of inconsistent with the formation and setup of roles and duties.

Therefore, if you insist on both playing a possession-oriented style of football and using the 4411 as your preferred formation at the same time, that would likely require a couple more tweaks:

- switching the striker's duty to support and possibly also his role to DLF (but only if the player has proper attributes for the role)

- changing the right winger into a WM as a more possession-friendly role

- Perhaps the BWM may also need to be changed into a BBM as a more dynamic role for the sake of your attacking play

Which brings us to something like this:

PF(DLF)su

AMat

IWsu    DLPde   BBM    WMat

FBat     CD    CD/BPD    FBsu

Hopefully these explanations and following examples will help you better understand some tactical principles. If you have any questions, please let me know 

[HibeeRyan]

thanks @Experienced Defender for your feedback.

What you say about the inverted winger and fullback makes complete sense and I will implement it straight away. 

Couple of questions I would follow up with is that my BWM does have the trait "gets forward whenever possible" and that's why I've went with this role as he will still get forward often with this trait or am I misunderstanding here?

So if I wanted to keep the 4-4-1-1 the most optimal idea is to become more expansive? Potentially drop shorter passing and increase tempo? I like the defensive solidity the formation offers and I came at it with more of a defensive mind which tbh is fine as we don't concede many but also don't score many either.

I'm currently away from computer with save on it but then the end result would be something like:

           

CF(A)

AM(s)

IWsu    DLPde   BWM    W(A)

FBat     CD    BPD    FBsu

with instructions of play out of defence, overlap left, higher tempo then I could potentially add counter to increase the chances of scoring on the break? I've added the CF as like I said this is where I want to end up but I understand I may be better with PF(a) until then.

I'm quite new to the new tactic creator and just trying to make sense of it since taking a break of a couple of years on fm. Thanks for taking the time to reply man it's appreciated.

Edited May 23, 2020 by HibeeRyan

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, HibeeRyan said:

Couple of questions I would follow up with is that my BWM does have the trait "gets forward whenever possible" and that's why I've went with this role as he will still get forward often with this trait or am I misunderstanding here?

No, you are not misunderstanding. He will get forward, but a BBM can provide more meaningful support up front. However, if you are pleased with how the BWM performs in that regard, then stick with him anyway  

 

1 hour ago, HibeeRyan said:

So if I wanted to keep the 4-4-1-1 the most optimal idea is to become more expansive? Potentially drop shorter passing and increase tempo?

If you want to switch from the possession-oriented to a more direct (counter-attackish) style, then yes. But you also need to take into account your players's strengths and weaknesses when deciding on the style of play, because different styles require different types of players. 

 

1 hour ago, HibeeRyan said:

I'm currently away from computer with save on it but then the end result would be something like:

           

CF(A)

AM(s)

IWsu    DLPde   BWM    W(A)

FBat     CD    BPD    FBsu

For what style of football? Btw, is your striker good enough to play a role as demanding as the CF? 

 

1 hour ago, HibeeRyan said:

with instructions of play out of defence, overlap left, higher tempo then I could potentially add counter to increase the chances of scoring on the break?

The same question again - what style of football do you want to implement with these instructions and the above setup of roles and duties?

In any case, you do not need the overlap left team instruction, because - as I said in my previous post - with an attacking FB behind an IW on support, you already have the natural overlap.

[HibeeRyan]

I'll answer your questions in order:

1. what style of football? - Preferably fast pressing football which can allow us opportunities on the break also have the freedom to build up moves when that is needed, so I suppose maybe closest to fluid counter attack on the preset tactic options however I want to press higher up than this option suggests, either higher LOE or standard.

2. is your striker good enough to play a role as demanding as the CF?  - No, my current strikers aren't however this is where I would like to end up, I would stick with your suggestion of PF(a) as a base until we have a player capable of playing in this role.

3 What strengths and weaknesses does your squad have? - Using the team report screen and my own opinion we have strikers with the ability to finish but with no real presence, a midfielder in Mallan who has 17 long shots so can score from the edge of the box regularly, solid defenders who have decent pace and heading for the level I am at. Comparing my squad to the rest of the league I am better than most teams, but obviously behind the Old Firm.

I appreciate the help @Experienced Defender it is good to talk it through with someone more knowledgable and I can see where you are coming from with your questions! 

Edited May 23, 2020 by HibeeRyan

[Djuicer]

A small change that might help with creativity from the OP version is to just swap  the BWM and DLP duties. DLP becomes support and will take more risk in possession and the BWM becomes more risk aversive and will use shorter passings, more often finding the DLP.

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, HibeeRyan said:

1. what style of football? - Preferably fast pressing football which can allow us opportunities on the break also have the freedom to build up moves when that is needed, so I suppose maybe closest to fluid counter attack on the preset tactic options however I want to press higher up than this option suggests, either higher LOE or standard

For such a style of play, I would rather go with the wide 442 diamond formation than the standard flat 442 or 4411. But I would not rely on presets anyway. 

 

1 hour ago, HibeeRyan said:

3 What strengths and weaknesses does your squad have? - Using the team report screen and my own opinion we have strikers with the ability to finish but with no real presence

What exactly do you mean by "no real presence"? Btw, are they fast? 

 

1 hour ago, HibeeRyan said:

a midfielder in Mallan who has 17 long shots so can score from the edge of the box regularly, solid defenders who have decent pace and heading for the level I am at. Comparing my squad to the rest of the league I am better than most teams, but obviously behind the Old Firm

Sounds like some sort of progressive possession style might be an option. 

[HibeeRyan]

6 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

For such a style of play, I would rather go with the wide 442 diamond formation than the standard flat 442 or 4411. But I would not rely on presets anyway. 

 

What exactly do you mean by "no real presence"? Btw, are they fast? 

 

Sounds like some sort of progressive possession style might be an option. 

above is my best striker, when I say no real presence and I mean he isn't tall or strong or especially fast but can finish chances when presented with an oppurtunity. Attack is the weakest part of my team and is the part I'm looking to improve in the summer as McNulty is leaving anyway.

I know I need to create space for my CM to allow him to have long shots which is why I thought I chose the BWM role and the gets forward whenever possible as he should arrive late. 

Yeah that sort of style seems to be the best option I do have pace outwide with my RM having 19 pace so there is pace to take advantage of space but I just worry if I play pure counter attacking then the other players won't be able to keep up and he'll just run down blind alleys.

[Experienced Defender]

23 hours ago, HibeeRyan said:

Yeah that sort of style seems to be the best option I do have pace outwide with my RM having 19 pace so there is pace to take advantage of space but I just worry if I play pure counter attacking then the other players won't be able to keep up and he'll just run down blind alleys

I proposed a progressive possession style (based on how you described your team), not counter-attacking football.