Literally all my attacks end with a cross

[dekzeh]

I'm a little at a loss, so help me out here. The context of my game is I had been playing solely with narrow formations, variations of the 442 diamond pretty much exclusively with great success at Milan, then due to new signings and with the thought that the addition of more wide options would help me vs all the teams parking the bus against me, along with just boredom of playing the same system.

I then came up to the following system:

 

The only PIs are 'Stay Wider' on the LB and a split block on the front 4.

The idea was to keep the play in the opponents half as much as possible, with a variety of attacking options and a lot of movement with the 5 players on the offense (from right to left: Winger, Mezzala, F9, IF, LB) patentially waiting for the space to open with 3 options to recycle possession on the IWB, CMDe and DLP. Pin the opposition in their own half, not letting them breath. I envisioned the Winger stretching play opening the channel for the Mezzala to make underlapping runs on the right, the F9 dragging defenders out of position for players making runs from deep and overloading defenders alongside the IF, and allowing the LB to get into good crossing positions but none of that really happens.

Sometimes the movement is there but the ball is never played, instead the players go for the safe route, pass it back and around for a while till it gets really static and they force a cross from a bad position.

Sometimes the movement isn't even there, it's just my static attack vs their static defense and nothing happens till we decide to try a random hail mary cross and reset play as we fight for a second ball, or get a corner, or a goalkick, etc.

This means I have issues creating the space and even exploiting the space when it does get created. The rest of what I envisioned works great, pinning the opposition on their own half works brilliantly and I have barely conceded shots and generally dominated possession, but I'm thinking it might be counterproductive as if they never leave their own half I don't get any space to exploit? That's a theory I have, don't know if it makes sense.

The issue isn't as much the results as it is the final third movement and creativity. We played the first 3 league games and won them 3, generally dominating, but not really creating much and crossing WAY too much. And crossing from bad positions, which is the main issue. Here are the games I played so far:

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If you look solely at the stats you might call me stupid for even complaining about anything, but honestly, those chances created were mostly ugly second balls from crosses or from set pieces. 4 of the 6 goals I scored were from set pieces actually (the other two were one from a cross and one from a counterattack). If you pay attention to the stats from the Genoa game there were 88(!!!) crosses attempted in that game, which is bloody ridiculous. Imagine going to the stadium see your team and watch they throw a cross into the box every single minute. In the other two games there were 45 in each. After 3 games I'm averaging 60 crosses per game. By curiosity I went to see what's the team in real life with the most crosses per game in the top 5 leagues and it's Frankfurt with a measly 26 per game. Even in game, the second team in the league with most crosses is Juventus with 100, or 33 per game, that's still high for real life comparisons but even so I got almost double that.

So, what I'm asking is, what do I do to get more variety in my attacking play, making the team play how I envisioned it?

Things I'm thinking:

1. The low tempo might be an issue? My thought was to patiently wait for the space to open but the lower tempo kinda makes the player not take the risk when the space opens. I feel like going higher tempo would be really defensively risky and force me to change other bits to get the tactic stable though. Thought about messing around with the right combination of passing directness/tempo and ticking/unticking Work Ball Into The Box/Be More Expressive. I admit I don't fully understand tempo and passing directness.

2. Pass Into Space could make sense? This is an instruction I don't use much when I'm the top team as no opposition will give me the space to abuse, but if I'm creating it, does it make sense? Also how much would it contradict with Work Ball Into The Box?

3. Lower the line of engagement? Like I said before I think never letting them leave their own half might reduce the space I have to use. I don't want to change this one though cause it'd be a huge fundamental change to what I wanted

Normally I'd experiment with it and go with it as I play the game, but as I've been on this save for a while now I don't want to risk much, and I'd love to hear what the more experienced people here have to say and get some help with what you guys would change in the setup.

[llama3]

• Low tempo I don't think is the issue, because it does encourage more considered play. I'd say your right flank looks like a challenge to me. A Mezzala drives wide, which is counter to what you want with attacking underlapping runs. The Central Midfielder (Attack) doesn't sound like a sexy role, but it's exactly what you're describing you want. He can contribute with the ball, but he will absolutely make penetrating runs beyond your False Nine. Additionally your right wing back isn't really contributing much - I'm not sure what he adds to your team. If you get him overlapping and getting forward on the right it might create more space. You also need to consider that a Winger (Support) is basically there to get early crosses in - if you don't want crosses, consider a change of role. 
• Passing into space could help, but only if you have space to exploit. That depends on how high you're pinning them in - considering you want to pin sides back and suffocate them it won't help much. Width helps you break sides down, stretching opponents towards you before passing round them.
• Your defensive line and line of engagement can be altered to let the opponents out, create space for you to attack into - consider sometimes a high line but lower LOE to do this.

[Experienced Defender]

4 hours ago, dekzeh said:

Quote

Literally all my attacks end with a cross

But you yourself created a tactic that encourages crossing.

First, you have a crossing-heavy role on each flank - FB on attack and winger respectively.

Then the Overlap left encourages crosses from the left fullback even further, because when he gets so high up the pitch, he hardly has any other viable option than a cross. Because at that point, there are more players in the box (or just on the edge of it) ready to wait for the cross from him (basically all the front 3 and mezzala) than those to whom he may possibly play a possession-friendly pass.

Then the winger in AMR - who, again, is a role that is already designed to cross a lot - will even more tend to cross when he has an attacking IF looking to attack the box from the opposite flank. 

Then the wide attacking width - naturally encourages proportionally more crossing.

Be more expressive is also not likely to help you reduce the number of crosses.

Now, let me clarify all this... I don't say that there is anything wrong in crosses as such. Just trying to explain to you why you are seeing that many crosses.

The problem is that people often believe that they will prevent (too many) crosses by simply using the Work ball into box team instruction. But no instruction alone can do much when the rest of your tactic is encouraging the opposite type of behavior. Because everything is interrelated when it comes to tactics. 

[Experienced Defender]

4 hours ago, dekzeh said:

The only PIs are 'Stay Wider' on the LB

And yes - this is just yet another instruction that is likely to encourage more crosses from your LB. 

[dekzeh]

4 hours ago, llama3 said:

• Low tempo I don't think is the issue, because it does encourage more considered play. I'd say your right flank looks like a challenge to me. A Mezzala drives wide, which is counter to what you want with attacking underlapping runs. The Central Midfielder (Attack) doesn't sound like a sexy role, but it's exactly what you're describing you want. He can contribute with the ball, but he will absolutely make penetrating runs beyond your False Nine. Additionally your right wing back isn't really contributing much - I'm not sure what he adds to your team. If you get him overlapping and getting forward on the right it might create more space. You also need to consider that a Winger (Support) is basically there to get early crosses in - if you don't want crosses, consider a change of role. 
• Passing into space could help, but only if you have space to exploit. That depends on how high you're pinning them in - considering you want to pin sides back and suffocate them it won't help much. Width helps you break sides down, stretching opponents towards you before passing round them.
• Your defensive line and line of engagement can be altered to let the opponents out, create space for you to attack into - consider sometimes a high line but lower LOE to do this.

 

Swapping the Mezzala for a CM-At makes perfect sense actually, don't know how I overlooked that. The idea of the RB is to add defensive stability and cover the space left by the Mez going forward, forming a line of 3 in the middle alongside the CMDe and the DLP, theorically allowing the team to recycle possession and forming sort of a 2-3-5 shape on attack.

What you mention about the Winger is interesting because there's no role that fits what I want there. All the wide forward roles are a bit too specific and the winger is really the only one who stays wide. I kinda wish there was a customizable role for the position, like the Wide Midfielder we have in the deeper strata. I feel like an inverted winger would be the best option but maybe it would get into the way of the CMAt?

I thought similarly about using Pass Into Space and hence why I didn't try it, it seems unlikely I'll be able to make good use of it.

The LOE and DL are something I've been changing now on a game to game basis, and I have seen some effect on my attacking, but I like to start it as it is (Higher LOE Much Higher DL)

Thanks for the thoughts.

 

14 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

But you yourself created a tactic that encourages crossing.

First, you have a crossing-heavy role on each flank - FB on attack and winger respectively.

Then the Overlap left encourages crosses from the left fullback even further, because when he gets so high up the pitch, he hardly has any other viable option than a cross. Because at that point, there are more players in the box (or just on the edge of it) ready to wait for the cross from him (basically all the front 3 and mezzala) than those to whom he may possibly play a possession-friendly pass.

Then the winger in AMR - who, again, is a role that is already designed to cross a lot - will even more tend to cross when he has an attacking IF looking to attack the box from the opposite flank. 

Then the wide attacking width - naturally encourages proportionally more crossing.

Be more expressive is also not likely to help you reduce the number of crosses.

Now, let me clarify all this... I don't say that there is anything wrong in crosses as such. Just trying to explain to you why you are seeing that many crosses.

The problem is that people often believe that they will prevent (too many) crosses by simply using the Work ball into box team instruction. But no instruction alone can do much when the rest of your tactic is encouraging the opposite type of behavior. Because everything is interrelated when it comes to tactics. 

Oh I absolutely knew I had messed up somewhere. I do want crossing to be a relevant part of my attacking repertoire, but I was astonished as to how it was literally the only thing the team was doing, to get 88 crosses in a game was a bit absurd to me. I admit I did expect Work Ball Into Box alongside a Slightly Lower Tempo and 3 options to recycle possession sitting deeper to be enough to make the players cross only when it's actually a good option and not to lump it into the box everytime, I guess I struggled to find the balance of making wide play and crossing an important part of my setup but not committing to only it.

12 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

And yes - this is just yet another instruction that is likely to encourage more crosses from your LB. 

This is fair, the idea was stretching play to get defenders out of position and abusing the channels. Am I completely overboard with the instructions of playing wider and having roles that stay wide on both sides? If so, how would I actually set this up?

I'm curious as to how you guys would set up what I'm trying to do: defending in a 4-3-3, attacking in a 2-3-5ish shape, stretching the play with the fullback on one side and a midfielder on the other side to abuse the channels but without becoming over reliant on crosses?

I guess W-Su or CWB-Su instead of a FBAt is a start, maybe IWSu over WSu, and then is playing wider necessary?

[Experienced Defender]

27 minutes ago, dekzeh said:

Am I completely overboard with the instructions of playing wider and having roles that stay wide on both sides? If so, how would I actually set this up?

 

27 minutes ago, dekzeh said:

I'm curious as to how you guys would set up what I'm trying to do: defending in a 4-3-3, attacking in a 2-3-5ish shape, stretching the play with the fullback on one side and a midfielder on the other side to abuse the channels but without becoming over reliant on crosses?

Assuming you want to keep using the 433 formation (with the flat midfield), this is an example of how i would try to set it up so as to avoid/minimize the issues you've been facing:

DLFat

IFsu                                     IWsu

DLPsu CMde MEZat

FBat    CDde   BPDde    IWBsu

SKsu

As you can see, I now have only one cross-heavy role in the entire setup - FB on attack on the left.

Now, the next part are team instructions.

Positive mentality is okay, so I would keep it 

In possession - play out of defence, shorter passing, default tempo, work ball into box, default width (and be more expressive as an option if you notice your players are struggling heavily to break down defensive opposition)

In transition - nothing (maybe occasionally counter-press, but with caution and not against strong opposition)

Out of possession - higher D-line, standard (default) LOE and offside trap

Player instructions:

left CB - stay wider (to take control of the space left by the attacking fullback when he gets further forward)

AML/IFsu - sit narrower (both to leave more space for the naturally overlapping left FB and be more involved in helping the midfield to control possession in the final third)

mezzala - close down more (split block)

striker - close down more (split block), roam from position (both to be more involved in the build-up phase of play and potentially also draw an opposition defender out of position)

Here I opted for a softer version of split block with only 2 players doing it - the striker and mezzala - in order to avoid a too-big defensive risk (given that you don't use a DM and the tactic as a whole is pretty much attack-minded).

Any questions/suggestions?

[targetthyself]

This is honestly more of a failure of the match engine to offer more options in defensive shapes than anything else. It's hard to really work the ball in front of the box anymore as teams run defensive shapes that deny you the middle channel and play compact and narrow so naturally your players are going to hit the wide open space down the flanks more often, defenders aren't as scared of the cross, and will let you take them consistently because they are such low percentage chance creators. This is why Pep and possession junkies now look to play overloads into the outside channels. It's really the only place in the final third you can hold possession consistently and look for Killer Balls. So your options are essentially, drop off, and look to counter, or overload the wide channels. Because nobody is giving up the middle of the park anymore.

Edited February 20, 2020 by targetthyself

[dekzeh]

9 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

 

Assuming you want to keep using the 433 formation (with the flat midfield), this is an example of how i would try to set it up so as to avoid/minimize the issues you've been facing:

DLFat

IFsu                                     IWsu

DLPsu CMde MEZat

FBat    CDde   BPDde    IWBsu

SKsu

As you can see, I now have only one cross-heavy role in the entire setup - FB on attack on the left.

Now, the next part are team instructions.

Positive mentality is okay, so I would keep it 

In possession - play out of defence, shorter passing, default tempo, work ball into box, default width (and be more expressive as an option if you notice your players are struggling heavily to break down defensive opposition)

In transition - nothing (maybe occasionally counter-press, but with caution and not against strong opposition)

Out of possession - higher D-line, standard (default) LOE and offside trap

Player instructions:

left CB - stay wider (to take control of the space left by the attacking fullback when he gets further forward)

AML/IFsu - sit narrower (both to leave more space for the naturally overlapping left FB and be more involved in helping the midfield to control possession in the final third)

mezzala - close down more (split block)

striker - close down more (split block), roam from position (both to be more involved in the build-up phase of play and potentially also draw an opposition defender out of position)

Here I opted for a softer version of split block with only 2 players doing it - the striker and mezzala - in order to avoid a too-big defensive risk (given that you don't use a DM and the tactic as a whole is pretty much attack-minded).

Any questions/suggestions?

That's really interesting and I think will accomplish what I want, my next thought was indeed getting the striker on an Attack role instead of a wide man.

One question I have is: won't the Mezzala and the Inverted Winger often get into each other's way? It seems to me they'd try to occupy a lot of the same spaces.

I mentioned that I wanted to try the get the correct combination of correct passing directness/tempo and ticking or unticking of Work Ball Into Box and Be More Expressive, so I'll give a try to what you suggested (and it'll probably work). I'm wondering if is there a guide I can read on more details of what passing directness and tempo do and how they are different to each other? Cause from the in game description I felt like I wanted a lower tempo to not rush the attack but regular passing to not limit my player options as to who to pass.

In transition: noted, I already take off Counter-Press against bigger opposition, but I do feel like I can afford to start most games with it.

Out of possession: are those changes for better defensive stability or to help with opening space? The softer split block is interesting, I'll give those a try and observe for a bit, but I really liked what I had off the ball, the issue was more what I was doing with it, but again, this could be affecting it.

Really appreciate you, it's always great to read the thoughts of more experienced people on the game.

[Experienced Defender]

4 hours ago, dekzeh said:

That's really interesting and I think will accomplish what I want, my next thought was indeed getting the striker on an Attack role instead of a wide man

I usually prefer to have the lone striker and one CM on attack duty, with both wide forwards on support when I use this type of formation. In this particular system though, a mezzala on attack may prove a bit too risky defensively, so I prefer the variant with the DM (instead of the flat midfield). But given that you have a good team, I suppose your players should be able to handle the risk properly. 

 

4 hours ago, dekzeh said:

One question I have is: won't the Mezzala and the Inverted Winger often get into each other's way? It seems to me they'd try to occupy a lot of the same spaces

From my experience, a mezzala can be successfully paired with any wide forward role as long as they have different duties. I don't claim that there cannot be exceptions, just citing my own experience. Of course, this will partly depend on the intelligence of the players you are using in these roles.

Actually, a combo of CM on attack and IW (or IF) is more likely to produce the issue you are referring to (players looking to occupy/attack the same space). That's why I prefer to pair a CM on attack duty with a classic winger, rather than IW/IF. The mezzala, on the other hand, is a highly roaming and mobile role, so he will basically tend to explore those areas of space that are not overly congested. 

4 hours ago, dekzeh said:

I'm wondering if is there a guide I can read on more details of what passing directness and tempo do and how they are different to each other? Cause from the in game description I felt like I wanted a lower tempo to not rush the attack but regular passing to not limit my player options as to who to pass

This depends a lot on the team mentality you play with. The higher the mentality - the higher the tempo and the more forward-oriented and adventurous passing style. And vice versa.

Let's assume, for example, that you play on the Balanced mentality and use shorter passing and standard (default) tempo. And then you just up the mentality to Positive, without making any other changes. Your passing and tempo will both automatically become proportionally more adventurous and faster respectively, due to the mentality change. The same applies to all other instructions, including defensive ones. 

4 hours ago, dekzeh said:

Out of possession: are those changes for better defensive stability or to help with opening space?

Both.