4231 deep

[Cpt_Bl4ck_B34rD]

need help with 2 dm pairings, like i cant make half back with segundo volante support  and trequasista work meaning i have around 30-40% possession, it doesnt make any sense cause on volante side wingback sits narrow and should cover him, in all honesty i have really brutal squad(ben godfrey, franck kessie half backs and SV pogba, romario baro, marcos antonio) but unless i play high press which i dont want to play but only want to do split press game but i lose possession in setup with higher DL and low or standard LOE..but for some reason it doesnt work

                CFs

IFs              T           Ws

 

           HBd  SVs

wba/s  BLDs  BLDc/d   WBs

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Cpt_Bl4ck_B34rD said:

CFs

IFs              T           Ws

 

           HBd  SVs

wba/s  BLDs  BLDc/d   WBs

First, this is only the setup of roles and duties. Where are the instructions and mentality?

Second, what's your idea with this formation? What style of football do you want to play? Why exactly have you opted for the deep 4231 and not some other system? 

If you want to play possession-oriented football, the deep 4231 is not an ideal system for such style.

[Cpt_Bl4ck_B34rD]

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

First, this is only the setup of roles and duties. Where are the instructions and mentality?

Second, what's your idea with this formation? What style of football do you want to play? Why exactly have you opted for the deep 4231 and not some other system? 

If you want to play possession-oriented football, the deep 4231 is not an ideal system for such style.

Because i had issues with counter attacks and long balls..  mentality is positive or balanced..short pass/higher tempo cause have players with good pace, play more  Expressive and work into box on  or off depends if team parks the bus.. general idea is if to be main goalscorer with striker and am/sv as support to striker to not be isolated among 4 players while winger with wingbacka delivers width and crosses, width is standard.. play from back and overlap left where if is

Edited February 7, 2020 by Cpt_Bl4ck_B34rD

[Experienced Defender]

5 minutes ago, Cpt_Bl4ck_B34rD said:

 mentality is positive or balanced..short pass/higher tempo cause have players with good pace, play more  Expressive and work into box on  or off depends if team parks the bus.. general idea is if to be main goalscorer with striker and am/sv as support to striker to not be isolated among 4 players while winger with wingbacka delivers width and crosses, width is standard.. play from back and overlap left where if is

It's difficult for me to understand your version of English, but I guess these are your instructions:

Mentality - Positive or Balanced 

in possession - shorter passing, higher tempo, be more expressive, work ball into box, play out of defence and overlap left

In transition - nothing?

Out of possession - nothing?

Correct or not? 

10 minutes ago, Cpt_Bl4ck_B34rD said:

Because i had issues with counter attacks and long balls

Well, it's not necessarily associated with the formation. There are a number of factors that can cause those issues. 

[Cpt_Bl4ck_B34rD]

in transition its counter press and counter with high defensive line and standard loe and now i am using press much more cause i cant do split press it doesnt work

[Experienced Defender]

Just now, Cpt_Bl4ck_B34rD said:

i am using press much more cause i cant do split press it doesnt work

Well, you cannot use split press if you use (much) more urgent pressing as a team instruction. But if you use default team pressing, then you can create a spit press via player instructions (except for the trequartista).

Anyway, I'll give you an example of how you can set up a deep 4231 more sensibly:

AF/PFat

IFsu              TQ              Wat

 

A/HB   VOLsu

WBat   CDde  BPDde/co  WBsu

SKsu/de

I don't know how good your players are defensively, so take this with a pinch of salt.

Mentality - Balanced or Positive

In transition - shorter passing, normal tempo, play out of defence, work ball into box, be more expressive

In transition - start with no instructions

Out of possession - higher DL, standard LOE, normal (default) pressing

And split block - tell the striker, AMR and AML to close down more. 

Do not use the Overlap left, because you already have a natural overlap on that flank.

NOTE: This is not a plug'n'play tactic. You need to watch your matches and make small gradual tweaks until you get what you want.

 

 

 

[Cpt_Bl4ck_B34rD]

12 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Well, you cannot use split press if you use (much) more urgent pressing as a team instruction. But if you use default team pressing, then you can create a spit press via player instructions (except for the trequartista).

Anyway, I'll give you an example of how you can set up a deep 4231 more sensibly:

AF/PFat

IFsu              TQ              Wat

 

A/HB   VOLsu

WBat   CDde  BPDde/co  WBsu

SKsu/de

I don't know how good your players are defensively, so take this with a pinch of salt.

Mentality - Balanced or Positive

In transition - shorter passing, normal tempo, play out of defence, work ball into box, be more expressive

In transition - start with no instructions

Out of possession - higher DL, standard LOE, normal (default) pressing

And split block - tell the striker, AMR and AML to close down more. 

Do not use the Overlap left, because you already have a natural overlap on that flank.

NOTE: This is not a plug'n'play tactic. You need to watch your matches and make small gradual tweaks until you get what you want.

 

 

 

i tried split press with normal pressing and amr/amc/aml/sc on much more it didnt work cause i got goals from long shots and i couldnt get possession back.. thats the point.. and i thought dmcs would protect in front the cds on like 35-40 meters

Edited February 7, 2020 by Cpt_Bl4ck_B34rD

[Experienced Defender]

11 hours ago, Cpt_Bl4ck_B34rD said:

i tried split press with normal pressing and amr/amc/aml/sc on much more it didnt work cause i got goals from long shots and i couldnt get possession back

How do you know that the split press was specifically the cause of those issues? Maybe it was, but there are a number of other possible factors that may have contributed to that. I don't know your team, so it's impossible to tell you where exactly the problem is. 

[Cpt_Bl4ck_B34rD]

3 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

How do you know that the split press was specifically the cause of those issues? Maybe it was, but there are a number of other possible factors that may have contributed to that. I don't know your team, so it's impossible to tell you where exactly the problem is. 

cause when i used pressing intensity more urgent when i was losing 1:0 i won 3:1 and possession completely changed and it happened in multiple matches.. the biggest issue for possession was if i used Treq on amc then had to use high press to even get ball at all.. even though player has prefect attributes for role every highlighted attrib needed for was 16 or up except balance which was 18..  and behind him are kessie mctominay on halfback and romario baro and pogbaa SVs, it just doesnt make sense at all why it doesnt work

It feels like HB just drifts to much even though it has hold position

Edited February 7, 2020 by Cpt_Bl4ck_B34rD

[Experienced Defender]

6 hours ago, Cpt_Bl4ck_B34rD said:

cause when i used pressing intensity more urgent when i was losing 1:0 i won 3:1 and possession completely changed and it happened in multiple matches

Well, that's great. You solved your problem, so such approach obviously works for your team 

 

6 hours ago, Cpt_Bl4ck_B34rD said:

It feels like HB just drifts to much even though it has hold position

If you want a holding DM that sits back with the primary task of protecting the defense, use the anchor man. It's also the role that works best as cover for a volante.

[permanentquandary]

Anchor Man is best to hold the centre in DM. DM(D) closes down the flanks and HB drops between the DCs vacating space in front of them. BWM closes down too much. DLP(D) attracts the ball. Anchor is perfect.

If you play a good DLP(D) as Anchor Man, somebody like Lucas Torreira, Fabinho, Allan or Florentino Luis, you will have a lot of joy.

But he won't get high ratings unless he scores or assists which will be rare.

[Cpt_Bl4ck_B34rD]

8 minutes ago, permanentquandary said:

Anchor Man is best to hold the centre in DM. DM(D) closes down the flanks and HB drops between the DCs vacating space in front of them. BWM closes down too much. DLP(D) attracts the ball. Anchor is perfect.

If you play a good DLP(D) as Anchor Man, somebody like Lucas Torreira, Fabinho, Allan or Florentino Luis, you will have a lot of joy.

But he won't get high ratings unless he scores or assists which will be rare.

one more question is Segundo Volante unoficially considered playmaker, i thought of him as box to box with more creativity, i am asking cause you say DLP is bad because it attracts ball

[permanentquandary]

11 hours ago, Cpt_Bl4ck_B34rD said:

one more question is Segundo Volante unoficially considered playmaker, i thought of him as box to box with more creativity, i am asking cause you say DLP is bad because it attracts ball

i'm not saying it's bad generally; i just mean for the purpose of what you are trying to achieve in your 4231, your playmaker is not situated in these two positions, so if you set one of the DMs as a playmaker they will get the ball more often than the player you really want to have most of the ball, typically the AMC.

the segundo volante is definitely a runner, not a playmaker, so nothing to worry about there.