Vertical 4-1-2-3 Chelsea

[Sarriball14]

Hi Guys, I’m going for one last career mode before FM20 comes out and I’ve decided to take on the current Chelsea team and make full use of the youth players at their disposal. Mainly CHO, Tammy, James Mount and Tomori. Being a Chelsea fan myself it’s something I’ve always wanted to do.

I’ve decided to go for a vertical tiki taka tactic as I like this style, ideally I’d like to use the 4-2-3-1 tactic for this but I’m not sure it would be effective for a vertical style (I may very well be wrong) Id love to see mount just in behind Tammy but using the 4-1-2-3 I can replicate this to some extent anyway.

I’ve read a lot on different posts about setting up tactics and I’ve recently read up ‘experienced defender’ post on creating a good defensive set up which I found extremely helpful. I’ve got a current tactic set up which I’d like you guys to Combe over and let me know if there’s anything that doesn’t look right and needs adjusting. 

I am half way through a season already and I am doing really well using the preset instructions for vertical Tiki taka but defensively somethings not quite right. I’ve decided to change it and before using it was hoping for some advice.

This is how I started the season up until now.

                    SK- S

WB- S   CD-D   BPD- D   WB-S

                   Regista    

            B2B         Mezzala-A

W- S                                    IF- S

                    DLF- A

This set up on a balanced Mentality

Like I said, with this set up I was using the preset instructions for V-T-T but defensively I was conceding  goals and against bigger teams (Man City and Liverpool) I was struggling to create and conceding a lot as well.

So I did a bit of research and first thing I decided to change was the regista to a DLP-D now this changed the fluidity to flexible from fluid.

Excuse the quality of pics, I’m at work typing this so have taken pics from my phone of my set up.

The pics below are how I’m now set up. 

Would appreciate any kind constructive criticism and advice.

thanks 

Connor

 

 

[Sarriball14]

[Sarriball14]

One thing I forgot to mention is I’ve set the striker, wide forwards and to CMs to press more as a split press

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, Sarriball14 said:

 

2 hours ago, Sarriball14 said:

but defensively somethings not quite right

Advice:

- remove both underlaps  

- change the RB's role from WB on attack to FB on attack

- change Kante's role from BBM to carrilero (or play Kante as a DM on defend and Jorginho as a DLP on support in MCR) 

2 hours ago, Sarriball14 said:

I’ve set the striker, wide forwards and to CMs to press more as a split press

Don't ask both CMs to press more, just the mezzala.

These were the changes I would suggest in relation to your defensive issues only. However, there are also some tweaks that I would suggest attacking-wise (if you are interested, of course). 

[Sarriball14]

thanks for getting in touch, I’d appreciate any feedback you’ve got to offer mate! Have been reading a lot of your posts which is where I got my defensive ideas and split pressing from.

Obviously I’m looking to get it as close to vertical tiki taka as possible so anything that would improve that would be helpful.

 

Thanks

[lferreira]

If I may, the defensive issues may come from having a Regista and no holding player - all your midfielders are roamers and you have wingbacks on both your flanks, so if a ball ricochets the wrong way or one of your IFs gets tackled everyone will be out of position.

You're also counter pressing, so things can get quite messy. If you want to counter press, try to have a more conservative role for your DM and try a split press. You could have a DLP-De/CM-De + Mez-A if you still want to have a Regista.

Tiki-Taka involves possession, but then you have two wingbacks going forward with the sole intent of crossing the ball, a DLF-At and a lot of players making runs into the box. 

I'd consider a Positive mentality, more support roles and inverted wingbacks (at least on one flank). You could try William as a winger on the left, a DLP-Su behind and a IWB-Su or even attack (depending on how desperate you are). You can even ask the IWB to overlap, which he will if William cuts inside. That adds a lot of movement and unpredictability to your left side.

On the other side you can have Pedro as an IF with a Mezzala-At behind him, and a FB-Su or IWB-De. I've recently tried playing wider and having two IWB-De and unleashing my DM (DM-Su on Positive mentality), having two wingers and two CM-At with a roaming role for a forward (F9, DLF-Su) and I've dominated games like that, but it might lack penetration if they play narrow.

Defensively it worked really well, you have a box defense of four players and a lot of guys to fight for the second ball. I don't counter press though, so my IWBs quickly rush back to their wide positions. There are many options for a 4-1-2-3 and what I love about it is the versatility it brings. Change a few roles and TIs and it's a whole different ball game.

[Experienced Defender]

3 hours ago, Sarriball14 said:

I’m looking to get it as close to vertical tiki taka as possible so anything that would improve that would be helpful

I have a pretty clear idea as to how I would play a possession-based style with your Chelsea team using the same formation (4141dm wide), but I am not sure if that would be close enough to the tiki-taka you are referring to. 

For example, this could be a possible setup of roles and duties:

DLFsu

IFat                                          IFsu

DLPsu        MEZat

DMde

WBsu       CDde     BPDde    IWBsu

SKsu/de

If you want to play on Balanced mentality, these would be logical starting instructions:

- shorter passing, play out of defence, work ball into box

Optional/occasional in-possession instructions may include: focus play through the middle, be more expressive

In transition - only Counter-press (you are already playing out of defence, so there is no need to specifically instruct the keeper where and how to distribute the ball)

Out of possession - higher DL, higher (or even much higher) LOE and offside trap

Split pressing with 4 players - the striker, both wide forwards and the more attack-minded CM (i.e. mezzala)

[Sarriball14]

40 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

I have a pretty clear idea as to how I would play a possession-based style with your Chelsea team using the same formation (4141dm wide), but I am not sure if that would be close enough to the tiki-taka you are referring to. 

For example, this could be a possible setup of roles and duties:

DLFsu

IFat                                          IFsu

DLPsu        MEZat

DMde

WBsu       CDde     BPDde    IWBsu

SKsu/de

If you want to play on Balanced mentality, these would be logical starting instructions:

- shorter passing, play out of defence, work ball into box

Optional/occasional in-possession instructions may include: focus play through the middle, be more expressive

In transition - only Counter-press (you are already playing out of defence, so there is no need to specifically instruct the keeper where and how to distribute the ball)

Out of possession - higher DL, higher (or even much higher) LOE and offside trap

Split pressing with 4 players - the striker, both wide forwards and the more attack-minded CM (i.e. mezzala)

The only reason it’s on Balanced is because that was what the preset tactic gave? Would you recommend a positive mentallity?

Also for team instructions what if I selected dribble and instructed players to learn to play 1-2s with each other? Would that help with the Tiki taka I’m looking for? 

[Sarriball14]

51 minutes ago, lferreira said:

If I may, the defensive issues may come from having a Regista and no holding player - all your midfielders are roamers and you have wingbacks on both your flanks, so if a ball ricochets the wrong way or one of your IFs gets tackled everyone will be out of position.

You're also counter pressing, so things can get quite messy. If you want to counter press, try to have a more conservative role for your DM and try a split press. You could have a DLP-De/CM-De + Mez-A if you still want to have a Regista.

Tiki-Taka involves possession, but then you have two wingbacks going forward with the sole intent of crossing the ball, a DLF-At and a lot of players making runs into the box. 

I'd consider a Positive mentality, more support roles and inverted wingbacks (at least on one flank). You could try William as a winger on the left, a DLP-Su behind and a IWB-Su or even attack (depending on how desperate you are). You can even ask the IWB to overlap, which he will if William cuts inside. That adds a lot of movement and unpredictability to your left side.

On the other side you can have Pedro as an IF with a Mezzala-At behind him, and a FB-Su or IWB-De. I've recently tried playing wider and having two IWB-De and unleashing my DM (DM-Su on Positive mentality), having two wingers and two CM-At with a roaming role for a forward (F9, DLF-Su) and I've dominated games like that, but it might lack penetration if they play narrow.

Defensively it worked really well, you have a box defense of four players and a lot of guys to fight for the second ball. I don't counter press though, so my IWBs quickly rush back to their wide positions. There are many options for a 4-1-2-3 and what I love about it is the versatility it brings. Change a few roles and TIs and it's a whole different ball game.

Hi thanks for the feedback I did notice that with wing backs and crossing even though I’ve got work ball in to box selected. So I might try out IWB, I’ve never played with them so never thought about using them. There seems to be so many different ways to go about it lol!

[Experienced Defender]

3 hours ago, Sarriball14 said:

The only reason it’s on Balanced is because that was what the preset tactic gave? Would you recommend a positive mentallity?

Not necessarily. You can start with the Balanced and if you notice that the players are too much risk-averse, you can easily up it to the Positive. 

 

3 hours ago, Sarriball14 said:

Also for team instructions what if I selected dribble and instructed players to learn to play 1-2s with each other? Would that help with the Tiki taka I’m looking for? 

Dribble more is not quite a possession-oriented instruction, so I guess it would not be a good idea if you want to play a tiki-taka. As for the One-twos, having too many players who share the same trait is also not something I would like to have in my team (regardless of which trait it is or what style of play I want to implement). A lot more important is to set up roles, duties and instructions in the right way (taking of course the already existing player traits into account).

[Sarriball14]

14 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Not necessarily. You can start with the Balanced and if you notice that the players are too much risk-averse, you can easily up it to the Positive. 

 

Dribble more is not quite a possession-oriented instruction, so I guess it would not be a good idea if you want to play a tiki-taka. As for the One-twos, having too many players who share the same trait is also not something I would like to have in my team (regardless of which trait it is or what style of play I want to implement). A lot more important is to set up roles, duties and instructions in the right way (taking of course the already existing player traits into account).

Sorry I meant ‘dribble less’ or would that make my players to static?

[Experienced Defender]

3 hours ago, Sarriball14 said:

Sorry I meant ‘dribble less’ or would that make my players to static?

Honestly, I would not use the Dribble less TI if I had a lot of good dribblers in my team, especially when you are a top team (such as Chelsea), because you are likely to face a lot of defensive opposition where individual technical abilities of your players can help you break them down. On the other hand, roles that are hard-coded to dribble more - as well as players with such traits - will still dribble even if you use the instruction (albeit slightly less than without it). Start without the instruction and turn it on only if you notice that your players are dribbling really too much (i.e. more than it would be necessary).

[poma]

On 17/09/2019 at 19:26, Experienced Defender said:

I have a pretty clear idea as to how I would play a possession-based style with your Chelsea team using the same formation (4141dm wide), but I am not sure if that would be close enough to the tiki-taka you are referring to. 

For example, this could be a possible setup of roles and duties:

DLFsu

IFat                                          IFsu

DLPsu        MEZat

DMde

WBsu       CDde     BPDde    IWBsu

SKsu/de

If you want to play on Balanced mentality, these would be logical starting instructions:

- shorter passing, play out of defence, work ball into box

Optional/occasional in-possession instructions may include: focus play through the middle, be more expressive

In transition - only Counter-press (you are already playing out of defence, so there is no need to specifically instruct the keeper where and how to distribute the ball)

Out of possession - higher DL, higher (or even much higher) LOE and offside trap

Split pressing with 4 players - the striker, both wide forwards and the more attack-minded CM (i.e. mezzala)

Is this how you would setup your tactic?

I also trying to setup a 4-3-3, 3-4-3 and a 4-2-3-1 tactic like Lampard/Chelsea do irl...

Edited October 8, 2019 by poma

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, poma said:

 

1 hour ago, poma said:

Is this how you would setup your tactic?

That's basically the tactic I suggested to the OP in terms of how he wants to play. Which does not mean that I would play that way if I managed Chelsea (except for roles and duties). 

[poma]

16 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

 

That's basically the tactic I suggested to the OP in terms of how he wants to play. Which does not mean that I would play that way if I managed Chelsea (except for roles and duties). 

Then how would you play? I'm struggling atm

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, poma said:

Then how would you play? I'm struggling atm

With the updated squad (Mount, Abraham, Zouma etc.) or with the original one (Hazard, David Luiz, Higuain & co.)?

[poma]

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

With the updated squad (Mount, Abraham, Zouma etc.) or with the original one (Hazard, David Luiz, Higuain & co.)?

The up-to-date squad

[Experienced Defender]

9 minutes ago, poma said:

The up-to-date squad

Okay. Could you then post screenshots of player profiles for Mount, Abraham, Zouma, Tomori and Bachuai (because I assume their attributes in the updated version differ from the original ones)? Unlike other (older) players, who should not have seen much of a change. The problem is that I don't play FM on this PC, so I use this website to analyze players. That's why I need those screenshots 

[poma]

11 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Okay. Could you then post screenshots of player profiles for Mount, Abraham, Zouma, Tomori and Bachuai (because I assume their attributes in the updated version differ from the original ones)? Unlike other (older) players, who should not have seen much of a change. The problem is that I don't play FM on this PC, so I use this website to analyze players. That's why I need those screenshots 

Ok, I'll get them for you 

Edited October 9, 2019 by poma

[Experienced Defender]

@poma So this would be my primary tactic (not plug-and-play):

DLFat

IFsu                                    Wat

DLPsu    MEZsu

DMde

FBat      CDde    BPDde    IWBde

SKsu

Players (preferred starting 11) and player instructions:

GK/SKsu - Kepa

DL/FBat - Emerson/Alonso

DR/IWBde - Azpi - take fewer risks

DCL/CDde - Rudiger (Zouma)

DCR/BPDde - Christensen - dribble less

DM/DMde - Kante - mark tighter

MCL/DLPsu - Jorginho

MCR/MEZsu - Mount - close down more

AML/IFsu - Pedro - sit narrower, close down more

AMR/Wat - Willian - close down more

ST/DLFat - Abraham - close down more

Team instructions:

Positive mentality

- shorter passing, play out of defence, work ball into box, be more expressive, overlap right

- counter, counter-press

- higher DL, higher (or sometimes even much higher) LOE, offside trap

[poma]

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

@poma So this would be my primary tactic (not plug-and-play):

DLFat

IFsu                                    Wat

DLPsu    MEZsu

DMde

FBat      CDde    BPDde    IWBde

SKsu

Players (preferred starting 11) and player instructions:

GK/SKsu - Kepa

DL/FBat - Emerson/Alonso

DR/IWBde - Azpi - take fewer risks

DCL/CDde - Rudiger (Zouma)

DCR/BPDde - Christensen - dribble less

DM/DMde - Kante - mark tighter

MCL/DLPsu - Jorginho

MCR/MEZsu - Mount - close down more

AML/IFsu - Pedro - sit narrower, close down more

AMR/Wat - Willian - close down more

ST/DLFat - Abraham - close down more

Team instructions:

Positive mentality

- shorter passing, play out of defence, work ball into box, be more expressive, overlap right

- counter, counter-press

- higher DL, higher (or sometimes even much higher) LOE, offside trap

Thanx for your input, so far so good!

[poma]

Have you had any thoughts of a 4-2-3-1 or 3-4-3?

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, poma said:

Have you had any thoughts of a 4-2-3-1 or 3-4-3?

The question is for me or the OP?

[poma]

12 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

The question is for me or the OP?

Oh sorry, it's for you sir

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, poma said:

Oh sorry, it's for you sir

Well, this 4123 tactic can be relatively easily translated into a 4231, but I don't see why would you do it given that 4123 is clearly a more balanced system that offers more room for maneuver than 4231.

As for 343, are you referring to the literal 343 (with 3 CBs, flat midfield 4 and 3 outright strikers) or the variant with wing-backs and wingers (i.e. wide forwards) also known as 541wide?

[poma]

11 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

As for 343, are you referring to the literal 343 (with 3 CBs, flat midfield 4 and 3 outright strikers) or the variant with wing-backs and wingers (i.e. wide forwards) also known as 541wide?

More like the 3-4-2-1, with two AMC's 

https://www.whoscored.com/Teams/15/Show/England-Chelsea#

Scroll down to see the formations used so far

[Experienced Defender]

5 hours ago, poma said:

More like the 3-4-2-1, with two AMC's 

In the link you posted, this 3421 is portrayed as if Azpi and Alonso played in wide midfield, but I think they in reality acted as wing-backs. Like this:

STC

AMCL     AMCR

MCL        MCR

WBL                                    WBR

CD     CD     CD

[poma]

On 10/10/2019 at 16:13, Experienced Defender said:

In the link you posted, this 3421 is portrayed as if Azpi and Alonso played in wide midfield, but I think they in reality acted as wing-backs. Like this:

STC

AMCL     AMCR

MCL        MCR

WBL                                    WBR

CD     CD     CD

The 4-1-2-3 or 4-3-3 tactic is awesome!

Will have a go at the 3-4-3 or 3-4-2-1 as well

[Experienced Defender]

51 minutes ago, poma said:

Will have a go at the 3-4-3 or 3-4-2-1 as well

Good

How do you intend to set it up? 

[poma]

I´ll start with a direct copy of the 4-1-2-3 and see how it goes.

If you want to play around and tweak the tactic you can get it here;

 

Base tactic

4-1-2-3 DM Wide.fmf

Edited October 12, 2019 by poma

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, poma said:

I´ll start with a direct copy of the 4-1-2-3 and see how it goes

How exactly do you mean to translate the 4123 into a 3421? They are not quite compatible systems.

 

1 hour ago, poma said:

If you want to play around and tweak the tactic you can get it here;

 

Base tactic

4-1-2-3 DM Wide.fmf 43.07 kB · 0 downloads

Can you post a screenshot instead of this file? Because I don't play FM on my PC but on someone else's, so I cannot open it here.

[poma]

1 minute ago, Experienced Defender said:

How exactly do you mean to translate the 4123 into a 3421? They are not quite compatible systems.

 

Can you post a screenshot instead of this file? Because I don't play FM on my PC but on someone else's, so I cannot open it here.

Of the 4-3-3 or the 3-4-2-1?

[Experienced Defender]

Just now, poma said:

Of the 4-3-3 or the 3-4-2-1?

If I understood you correctly, you said you are pleased with (my) 4123 and now want to try a 3421. Or perhaps I misunderstood something?

[poma]

39 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

If I understood you correctly, you said you are pleased with (my) 4123 and now want to try a 3421. Or perhaps I misunderstood something?

No you're right.

I'll post the 3-4-2-1/3-4-3 in a while...

Edited October 12, 2019 by poma

[poma]

3-4-2-1 (3-4-3).fmf

[Experienced Defender]

37 minutes ago, poma said:

3-4-2-1 (3-4-3).fmf 43.28 kB · 0 downloads

A screenshot mate, I cannot open the file. 

3 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Can you post a screenshot instead of this file? Because I don't play FM on my PC but on someone else's, so I cannot open it here

 

[poma]

18 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

A screenshot mate, I cannot open the file. 

 

 

My lineup for now:

Edited October 13, 2019 by poma

[Experienced Defender]

19 hours ago, poma said:

This one looks good to me 

Perhaps I would consider giving the central CB a stopper duty (to sort of compensate for the absence of DM), but it's not necessary. 

19 hours ago, poma said:

Unlike the 5221, I don't like this 3421. 

First, I would avoid a winger role when I have only 1 player on the entire flank, simply because the role as such is essentially attack-minded (regardless of the duty). My preference would be a simple WM on support (or WP on support if I have a suitable player and if the role fits my playing style).

I would also avoid a DW, although for a different reason than in the case of the winger. While DW is not attack-minded role (compared to the standard winger), his inherent tendency to both press and tackle aggressively can leave his flank exposed when he is responsible for the entire flank (especially given that there are no DMs). Therefore, I would again opt for a WM. 

The front three look okay in terms of roles and duties, but the central midfield could be tweaked a bit. I would play Kante as a CM on defend, whereas Jorginho would remain the DLP but on support duty. Because in this system you need both CMs in holding roles, considering that you have a 3-man defense without any DM.

And I definitely don't like how you set up the 3 CBs (looks like a complete mess to me). Either all 3 on defend duty or the outer 2 on defend and the central one on stopper. And I would definitely play Kepa (SK) on support duty.

In terms of instructions, I would only be a bit more cautious with the DL/LOE combo, because here - unlike the 4123 and 5122 - the defense has less direct protection, so a bit more vertical compactness may be needed.

So this is what my basic 3421 setup would (probably) look like:

DLFsu

SS      AMsu

WMsu       DLPsu      CMde      WMsu(at?)

 

CDde    CDde/st   CDde

SKsu

NOTE: Apart from all of the above, I would look to avoid making such big changes to a tactic that works (and you said that the 4123 worked very well for you). If you want to try a new formation, then better wait for the next season and use the pre-season to familiarize the players with the new system.