Marco Rose & Ralf Rangnick 4-3-1-2

[KI Heynckes]

I won the title and DFB Cup in the first season using a 4-4-2 and 3-5-2 based on their real tactics from this season and the past two years. Because fun in FM for me mostly comes with reading about real life tactics and being able to implement and visualize them in the game I didn't just want to continue with these. So I read multiple articles about Marco Roses 4-D-2 for Salzburg and Ralf Rangnicks implementation of this in the last months and especially his 4-3-1-2 he used against Hertha two weeks ago (5-0 win vs. Hertha). Most of these are in German, but I'll link the ones that are in English. I also read Rashidi's guide about the 4-3-1-2, which is more based on pure implementation in FM terms.

First of all, you'll see it's only possible to implement this system pretty rudimentary, for example Rose's Assistant Manager and former spielverlagerung blogger René Maric said on Twitter that they have 11 different staggerings alone in their consolidation and ball recycling phase. Obviously this is not possible to implement in FM and if it would I doubt many people would play FM anymore, as it would be like work even more.

Articles:

https://totalfootballanalysis.com/match-analysis/rb-leipzig-hertha-berlin-bundesliga-tactical-analysis

https://www.esdfanalysis.com/manager-analysis/marco-rose-line-become-next-bundesligas-great-manager/

https://footballbh.net/2019/03/25/marco-rose-red-bull-salzburg-tactical-analysis/

https://redbullanalysis.com/analysis/match-analysis/europa-league-red-bull-salzburg-celtic-tactical-analysis

Implementation in FM

As you see I used a 4-3-1-2 instead of a diamond. Even though you have the big vertical channel between the back four and the second line, this seems to work better, as the half-space midfielders in the diamond play a little bit more wide than if they are alone in the CM strata. 

In general it's a really aggressive system with the classic elements of Counterpressing (for what the narrow formation of the diamond is pretty good) and quick transitions after gaining possession. But especially Rose has elements of Juego de Posicion and possession football in his playstyle, which is obviously necessary when you're that much better than everyone else in Austria. With the teams starting to play on Defensive mentality against my team even at home I obviously need this elements and can't only rely on counter-attacking. In games I normally play on higher mentalities and with a high line, to don't give teams the chance to recycle possession, especially in our half (will come to this problem later). 

I first played with rather conservative full backs, as Maric described this in his article about Rose's Salzburg U18 a few years ago, but for both Salzburg now and Leipzig offensive Wing Backs play an important role. They give width that can be used both when the CMs have no other options for passes and more importantly for vertical passes to send them 1v1 after overloading the other side (many goals were created like this).

The midfield three was the toughest for me and I'm still unsure about the roles. As you may have read in the linked articles especially the two players in the half spaces are very versatile and it's probably not really possible to emulate their movements. I tried two Mezzalas here because if you read articles by Maric you can see he really emphasizes the importance of half spaces, so I liked their roaming into these spaces. On the left I also tried a Carrilero to cover for the more aggressive wing back. But he basically just did that so that definitely wasn't what he does in the real life system and also not what I wanted from him. I think the B2B role is a good compromise for now.

The AM can be an AP for a creative player like Forsberg, when Hannes Wolf plays there I want him to go for more shots and being a goalscoring threat himself, so I use him as a normal AM(A). 

I normally don't play with two strikers, but Poulsen and Werner are an even better duo than in real life. I play Poulsen as a Target Man to emulate his role in real life, he outscored Werner last year playing with the same roles in 5-3-2 and 4-4-2 so no reason to change this. Copying real life Werner probably rather would be a Pressing Forward, but I feel like he's pretty harmless in that role. So I play him as a Complete Forward, more like Dabbur for Salzburg, where he's a good partner for Poulsen. Scored 11 I think with 2 penalties in the league and we're at matchday 16. When Poulsen doesn't play I mostly go with a DLF(S) to help with Overloads and generally creating spaces for the AM and Werner. 

Results & Problems

Yes, this might look solid, and we're still 1st in the league (at least before the game against Leverkusen, I'll play in 4-4-2 there after getting smashed in the Supercup and with their system totally exploting the major problems of the formation, which I'll explain in this paragraph, so I wanted to do this write-up now), but I'm still not that happy. If I would've played through every match 90 minutes with the 4-3-1-2 (which probably would be better when making such a write-up tbh), there probably would be 4-5 more draws and 1-2 more losses on the schedule. Against Bayern I went to 4-4-2 after we conceded in the 9th minute, in Dortmund I had to change after we were 2-0 up but Demme got sent off. In late game situations when leading by one I often went for the 3-5-2, so I'd have more defensive presence on the pitch, with Wingers and Full Backs of the opponent getting more offensive. Compared to the 2nd Half of last season where we only lost points 3 times, a really unlucky loss at Schalke, a draw at home against Bayern and a draw at Bremen on the last matchday where we already had clinched the title so I rested many players for the cup final and let the club legends Frahn and Röttger, that I signed for fun, play, who are 3rd division players at best (I did the same in the loss against Eindhoven here because we already clinched the 1st place in our Group).

And... that's where I come to the main problem of this system in Defense. Leipzig most of the time when playing the diamond in offense defended in regular 4-4-2 shape regardless. In the 2nd article I linked there's a paragraph with screenshots showing Salzburg in "deep defence", where they also play 4-1-4-1 or 4-4-2 shapes most of the time. 

So to prepare for this article I looked at every goal I conceded in this 4-3-1-2 shape and besides goals from set pieces most of the goals follow a certain pattern. My three CM players get drawn to one side, to help the strong side full back, then the opponent crosses or plays a long vertical pass to the other side, where they can overload my weak side or can get easy headers/shots after a cross, because my weak side full back has to defend 2-3 players at once. I have like 10 screenshots of situations like this, 2-3 will be enough to understand I guess, I hope someone can help me out with it, although I think there is no easy way to fix it.

The two CMs stand in no-mans land, Halstenberg (#23) has to defend 3 players, with the Wing Back being totally open for a second ball. Would never happen with Wingers or one more CB. 

Obviously Skov gets an easy tap-in.

Four people (LCB, LB, DM, LCM) can't intercept or prevent this cross and obviously the long post is totally open because the RB had to move to the direction of the ball. 

Kimmich gets a long vertical ball, the CMs can't get there in time obviously, three players stand between CB and RB and Bailey scores easily. Wouldn't happen in my other systems I feel.

This problems obviously mostly occur against 4-2-3-1 and 4-1-2-2-1 systems, when their full backs overlap and have an overload on my wings.

[Jean0987654321]

I would use Carrileros instead to cover for the wide spots. The narrow shapes seem more secure against width when they use those in this game...

[Rashidi]

I like the 4312, and yours is a well thought out system, and you have tried roles to achieve the effect you want which is impressive. Generally I find that with any system that plays narrow sometimes you have to think of which flank to protect and which flank to use for attacks. Partnerships can also be very important. 

You are right in looking for roles that control the half spaces, you basically need the two wider mids to do that job. The mezzala will do it brilliantly but the BBM not nearly as much. Mezzalas' can play good support roles and can carry the ball or wait for them in the half spaces. The challenge in a 4312 isn't the attack as you pointed out but covering the flanks. Here the 4312 is at its weakest and it needs the central midfield area to provide a good screen. When opting for players to play here in the wider positions, you need players who have the attributes to do the work. Bravery will be important so they will at least have the mental strength to put in a challenge, otherwise all you see are players running to close down but doing hardly anything else.  There may be the occasional player who challenges, but what we really want is consistency.

The formations you find challenging have the strengths in having roles that keep your backline occupied this allows them to bring the fullbacks up unchallenged at times. I find that  such cases you may need to consider protecting one of these flanks. You may even need to consider asking one of these players to play as a DFB. It is something to consider against teams like that. Another thing you can do is apply OIs on their fullbacks, so they are giving close down more and tackle harder. By the time those fullbacks get in your half, it usually means you are in trouble so that could be one other thing you can try. 

[Alerion]

This is my take on the Rose 4-3-2-1 (please ignore the City team/players), tweaked for the ME to work better. I´d go for a flat 3 CM too like you but honestly not playing with an DM seems so punishing this year (atleast for me) so I just brought my DM a row back with the same role/duty.

If you want to replicate Leipzig you´d be better off with a 4-4-2 or a 3-5-1, the 4-3-2-1 diamon is pretty much "only" used by Rose/Maric- Recent formations from RBL came pretty much down to Jesse Marsch, thats why for the majority of the season Leipzig played with the more traditional 4-4-2.

In Rose´s system Dabbur is pretty much either a DLF or a F9, his traits do reflect that playstyle very well too, getting the ball from deep and either holding it for the 10/striking partner or giving it a try for a shot. The 10 is no playmaker tho, either Wolf or Minamino, both rely heavily on their pace and technical attributes. Especially for Wolf who is not really good regarding vision or decision making IRL.

For my FB I have them both on "sit narrower" and "close down less" as my TI´s are already very aggressive anyway and I dont want them to be over aggressive and get caught out of position.

 

[Jean0987654321]

7 hours ago, Alerion said:

This is my take on the Rose 4-3-2-1 (please ignore the City team/players), tweaked for the ME to work better. I´d go for a flat 3 CM too like you but honestly not playing with an DM seems so punishing this year (atleast for me) so I just brought my DM a row back with the same role/duty. 

If you want to replicate Leipzig you´d be better off with a 4-4-2 or a 3-5-1, the 4-3-2-1 diamon is pretty much "only" used by Rose/Maric- Recent formations from RBL came pretty much down to Jesse Marsch, thats why for the majority of the season Leipzig played with the more traditional 4-4-2.

In Rose´s system Dabbur is pretty much either a DLF or a F9, his traits do reflect that playstyle very well too, getting the ball from deep and either holding it for the 10/striking partner or giving it a try for a shot. The 10 is no playmaker tho, either Wolf or Minamino, both rely heavily on their pace and technical attributes. Especially for Wolf who is not really good regarding vision or decision making IRL.

For my FB I have them both on "sit narrower" and "close down less" as my TI´s are already very aggressive anyway and I dont want them to be over aggressive and get caught out of position.

 

It would probably helped if you screenshoted the tactics in English. I'm not too sure of the roles there :?

[Alerion]

vor 11 Stunden schrieb Jean0987654321:

It would probably helped if you screenshoted the tactics in English. I'm not too sure of the roles there :?

            SK

WB - CB - CB -WB

          DLP

BBM     -    BWM

           AM

   AF     -   PF

 

Duties should be obvious (red, blue and green same as in english)

TI´s are:

Shorter passing

Pass into space

Play out of defense

Low ? flanks (the bottom option)

Higher tempo

Attacking with (2nd option to the right)

 

Distrubute to CB, short passing

Counter

Gegenpress

 

Much higher pressing line

More urgent

GK distribution pressing (not sure how excactly its called in E)

Use offside trap