Refine my tactic (must be attacking and possession)

[trickyzip]

Hi Guys,

Use the forum alot, never post. But I've run in to some troubles in the Premier League. I always play an unemployment challenge. I landed a big gig in Southampton with some stipulations: Possession football, attacking football, dev. youth, sign young players, score set-pieces.

Now, in lower leagues I had an attacking formation that dominated possession but the prem is quicker and crueller. The counter attacks just destroyed me. I reverted to a 4231 with some success (8 game run) but then started getting destroyed again. In fact, I decided I'd need a DM, so reverted back to a 41231 with some new roles. Here it is:

                    Gk

RWB (A), CB, CB, LWB (S)

                DLP (D)

          CM (S)   Mez (A)

 Ins.fwd (S)                Ins.fws (A)

                       F9

Instructions: Short Passing, Play out of Defence

Mentality: attacking

Philosophy: Flexible

Here's the good: I counter extremely well (I always think thats a good sign for a tactic), Possession is decent 50+ % in game. Plus there's always options on the ball, passing channels and good movement into the box, overlapping runs etc. This tactic took a lot of tweaking  (and a lot of bad results) to get where it is so far, and I like the build up, counter-attacking and general threat with the ball.

 

The Bad: Results. Teams exploit me by overloading my left-hand side, mistakes: penalties given away at corners, poor passing, giving the ball away in playing out of defence, 

Now some of this is fixable in game. E,g, when they exploit the left hand side, I can revert my mezzala to a support duty and/or WB to defense which nullifies the threat without sacrificing attacking too much. (I did try putting inside fwd left on support but then I stop having channels and good attacking play (with 2 inside fwds support) equally switching the attacking role to the right handside ends up with all my play going down the right---this usually leads to lots of opposition counters.

Defensively, my players are always close to the opposition but not close enough to get in challenges. We seem to marshall the opposition well but aren't aggressive in winning the ball back. 

We miss lots of sitters  in fact, most media reports are so and so strikes lucky etc etc, southampton in disappointing collapse. This is part and parcel of the game, its conceding thats the problem

When we score we often concede straight after, in other games we can keep missing chances before an ineveitable sucker punch. I wonder if the attacking mentality is causing the mistakes, high risk passing etc. 

Any suggestions to improve much appreciated.

If you need any extra info just ask,

 

  

 

 

[summatsupeer]

12 hours ago, trickyzip said:

 

I counter extremely well (I always think thats a good sign for a tactic)

I think this comes more down to formation and the type of forwards you have.  Quick direct technical forwards will always counter well regardless of instructions since they are ignore during a proper counter attack.

Quote

The Bad: Results. Teams exploit me by overloading my left-hand side,

...

Now some of this is fixable in game. E,g, when they exploit the left hand side, I can revert my mezzala to a support duty and/or WB to defense which nullifies the threat without sacrificing attacking too much. (I did try putting inside fwd left on support but then I stop having channels and good attacking play (with 2 inside fwds support) equally switching the attacking role to the right handside ends up with all my play going down the right---this usually leads to lots of opposition counters.

I don't get why you have a MEZ-A + IF-A.  The IF-A wants to run through the channel and you have put another player who wants to push up move into the channel.  They are both looking to exploit the same area of the pitch.  With the WB-S thats all 3 players looking to make forward runs often, whilst this could overload it could also cause a lack of options and cover.

Your clearly looking in the right area but I'd try 1 of the following (maybe both depending what you see happening):

1. WB-S to FB-S.  Just gets forward a little less and later but mostly will play the same (assuming using same player) without reducing his risk taking, passing etc that WB-D would do.
2. MEZ-A to BBM-S.  I'd likely start with a BBM-S here, can move around and arrive in box later rather than getting forward early when the IF-A wants to do that. Could add PI's if needed but i'd leave the channels for the IF to use.

Quote

Defensively, my players are always close to the opposition but not close enough to get in challenges. We seem to marshall the opposition well but aren't aggressive in winning the ball back. 

This could be due to the aggression attribute of the player being low or maybe too risky for them to try to put a foot in due to lack of cover at that time.

Quote

We miss lots of sitters  in fact, most media reports are so and so strikes lucky etc etc, southampton in disappointing collapse. This is part and parcel of the game, its conceding thats the problem

What type of chances are the "sitters"?  Clear through on goal 1 on 1s?  Close range chances from crosses?  Are they good at scoring those type of chances, composure for 1on1s, heading for crosses etc?

[trickyzip]

Hey thanks for the reply.

Good tips too.

I rejigged it a little mezzala support, Ins.fwd left support, LWB attack. Those three do combine well but i might experiment with switching to a fullback on that side too. 

I started closing down, which has helped the defensive side, my form is patchy but I think I drop some points due to blooding in youngsters. 

Missed chances, alot are the inside forwards getting inside the fullback and cb into a one on one situation esp. my right sided one. The other chances are often my f9 missing a one on one- when a ball goes directly over the top/ he gets played in behind early from the flanks. Tbf this season we went on a run and scored a lot of those same chances---maybe morale? 

One more question--I have a wonder kid, but he's not suited to a inside forward role. He plays on the right. I'm thinking maybe right winger with an inverted wingback on that right hand side-good idea? or any suggestions?

[trickyzip]

hmm maybe I should get that right sided inside forward to start placing shots, what stats would you need for that? off the top of my head: composure, technique, finishing, concentration? 

[summatsupeer]

5 hours ago, trickyzip said:

I rejigged it a little mezzala support, Ins.fwd left support, LWB attack. Those three do combine well but i might experiment with switching to a fullback on that side too. 

Thats still very little cover with the WB getting forward, the MEZ-S roaming+getting forward and the IF-S won't cover them.  For me at least one of the DL and/or MCL have to provide depth and cover to give a different option.  Thats also why i'm a little puzzled you went from IF-A and MEZ-A to IF-S and MEZ-S as you'll still have the same issue, they will try to use the same areas.  Of course its unlikely they will stand around holding hands but one of them will have to use some freedom to do something outside of there instructions (likely the MEZ) to move to a different zone to find space.  I think the "polishing" of a tactic is these kind of refinements, getting players to consistently be doing the right things in the right areas rather than it happening less often when the player does it outside of the instructions given.

5 hours ago, trickyzip said:

I started closing down, which has helped the defensive side, my form is patchy but I think I drop some points due to blooding in youngsters. 

Yeah, even if they are good youngsters the balance of attributes will likely be different so will play differently to the usual starter, especially if they have different traits.  If this is a key position then it could affect how the whole tactic plays, of course sometimes its a good thing if you want that change.

5 hours ago, trickyzip said:

Missed chances, alot are the inside forwards getting inside the fullback and cb into a one on one situation esp. my right sided one. The other chances are often my f9 missing a one on one- when a ball goes directly over the top/ he gets played in behind early from the flanks. Tbf this season we went on a run and scored a lot of those same chances---maybe morale? 

Could be form, a bit of over confidence or lack of confidence (which is different to morale, check your assistants team talk report) but these are typically marginal but everything helps.  Sometimes I keep playing a "worse" player for more than the planned game or two because he can't stop scoring rather than bringing back my starter.

5 hours ago, trickyzip said:

One more question--I have a wonder kid, but he's not suited to a inside forward role. He plays on the right. I'm thinking maybe right winger with an inverted wingback on that right hand side-good idea? or any suggestions?

He could be lots of things like an attacking WB or ST but its hard to say without seeing him.  Whilst you can't totally transform them, if they're young enough you can retrain them quite a bit.

5 hours ago, trickyzip said:

hmm maybe I should get that right sided inside forward to start placing shots, what stats would you need for that? off the top of my head: composure, technique, finishing, concentration? 

Concentration I think would come into play whilst they don't have the ball, making sure they don't switch off.

For me, generally for 1 on 1 situations i'd consider the other three plus Decisions:

• Composure - Don't panic and waste the chance
• Technique - especially if one footed so they have a range of options on how to finish
• Decisions - should I round the keeper, put it in far corner, near corner, smash it, chip it etc?
• finishing - actually putting it where you want

If you want them to place there shots more often i'd say they need better composure and finishing to keep calm and to be precise with the finish rather than using power to get it past the keeper before his reflexes can get to it.

[Svenc]

Interestingly, the actual attributes don't make that hugely a difference to chance conversion from my experience (and editor experiments), this is a long-term thing. And based on football, it shouldn't much. Unfortunately naturally, we don't have much feedback and data to confirm it. As such, any streak and fluctuation can also be simply explained by, --- random chance. As the game under the hood is maths literally -- imagine a one on one on average could be anything from a 1 in 4 (25%) to 1 in 2 (50%) chance (assuming the game has it "correct"). For the sake of simplifying, let's make that a good 1 in 3 average. Take a pen. Take a paper. Take a six sided dice. Every time you roll a 5 or 6, you draw an x. Every time you don't, you draw an o. Roll the dice at leastleast two, three dozens times. Just do it. Every x you draw represents a converted chance. Every o a missed one. You will get insteresting patterns here simply by the virtue of the fact that outside of tap-ins and pens, in this game too you should not bet on the forward to score.

That's not meant to say you shouldn't pay any attention. A good, motivated, finisher may put the additionall odd chance away.These may be just those goals you need in choke points of seasons / matches. What he usually won't do however is turning a worse chance as such into a better one, or scoring like an additional 10+ goals per season a worse finisher wouldN't have off the same amount of chances/finishes.

[Mactier]

I run a similar setup.  My knowledge is zilch. However I outsource a of lot coaching consultancy to Coach Google.   If you dig enough you'll find the 'skilled FM bloggers' currently tend to lean towards a DLF or CF rather than an F9 this season.