Tactic Tweaks - Advice Appreciated

[josh381991]

Hi All,

 

Really just looking for advice to try and tweak the tactic I'm attempting to work with.

I am attempting to create a tactic with surging WB's who go up and the down the pitch all day long drawing defenders out of position to make more room for my forward players i play in.

I want 1 DM to aggressively win the ball and get it out to the more creative players.

I am looking for my forward layers ( AM's and ST ) to almost form a front 3 and play triangles round the opposition defence.

Starting from the back of the pitch in defence - As you can see i currently play with x2 CD's and x1 BPD ( Thinking the BPD is not required and just playing another CB ? )

My WB's i am happy with as they get forward with the ball enough for me.

I currently have x1 DM as a BWM as mentioned above i want this player to win the ball back and give to the creative players. I thought a RPM would be the best role to play next to the BWM but i am unsure and wonder if anyone has any suggestions ?

My forward players is my real struggle, I aim to have players with Pace who are very creative but have no idea on what 3 roles to but together ! 

 

In terms of the team instructions i currently have the team playing standard mentality and Fluid shape with a higher tempo, Running at the defence ( aimed at the WB's but maybe no applicable for the rest of the team ? ), Retain Possession and play out of defence. I understand this may need some work so any suggestions are welcome.

 

Apologies if i seem a bit of a tactic amatuer !!

 

Thanks in advance !

 

Josh

 

 

[summatsupeer]

I personally dislike having 3/3 forward players on Attack duty as it won't offer much variation in movement.  The DLF-A + SS-A will both try and make runs in behind whilst the EG will sit deeper, there's no one trying to drag defenders wide/deep for the runners to run into.  I'd prefer having the forward on Support duty.  Your formation is your defensive positioning, so making triangle on here won't really translate into attacking phase triangles, that will be more from your roles + duties.

Your Wingbacks and RPM will have a lot of responsibility to transition the ball to the front 3, maybe the EG will drop to help, but its something to watchout for.  I think using a less limited role than BWM-D could help, you have 3 CB's to cover, i'd probably start with a DM-S and then add PI's depending how limited the player is with the ball.

Typically when I see players put all there attacks on attack duty I think what they really want is a Team Shape on the Structured side, so the forwards focus more on the attack phase and the defenders focus more on the defending.  If you want all 3 to have pace and to dribble, why a DLF + EG?  They're both more static roles but then you've added Dribble More TI for your WB's but your WB's already are told to Dribble More, so it's not going to affect them but will affect your forwards.  I'd scrap that TI and maybe use a AP-S/A and F9-S,  the AP can drop and help link transitions whilst the F9 creates space for the SS runs.  

Why retain possession + higher tempo?  Your adding urgency with one instruction but then taking it away with another?  Retain Possession will reduce your players risky passes (through balls), but you don't really have that many players looking to play them often with all the deeper players either Rarely or Sometimes looking for them (rather than often).  Maybe just try without either TI and see how things workout?

It really depends what you have available, but try and have a plan of how your going to create your goals.  Who's moving where and whats the goal of the movement, if they're moving in the same direction as another player near them, then your probably lacking variation.

 

[Guest]

That's a spot on reply, brilliant!

I've been trying to develop 3421 deep system replicating Tottenham

Regarding the defence, you should use a BPD if you want (relatively) long accurate balls forward. You need to have a player with certain attributes for that. If you want your defenders to carry out build up play, than you should use regular CDs with play out of defence TI.

Regarding the midfield , I've used DM(s) with get further forward (and dribble more to replicate Dembele) PI - I needed this since there's a huge gap between DM and AM strata. The other one was a BWM(s), not (d) , for the same reason.

Regarding the attack, I wasn't sure , I wanted AM players to get beyond the striker. I'e used AP(a)/T(a) and a SS(a) with DLF(a). Team shape was structured xD. The problem is this is a pretty defensive tactic to start with, there are 7 players in your half and only 1 forward. So bcs of this , and the fact that wingbacks are supposed to cross often, you'  want a forward with attack duty to push forward and to get on the end of crosses. To make sure he's not isolated , it makes sense to chose a role that gets deeper and links with the rest of the team. So it makes sense to play DLF(a). also, he can make space for AM players to run into bcs  he has move into channels by default and hold up ball to wait fir them to run toward him and into space. And when the get into that space, the  DLF has more risky passes. In case DLF(a) shoots too often, I'd change him to CF(s). The other options would be using the WBIB, shoot less often TIs, F9 role or a more fluid shape, but I felt these are contrary to how Spurs play.. 

But I've never tried e.g. CF(s) + SS(a) + AP(s) - 2 support duties as Sumatsupeer suggested, and maybe I should.

Also, I had a problem with one side - the one where the AP(a) played- was heavily used , I've never come up with a solution for this.

 

PS If you want movement in attack and all 3 players with attacking duties , try SS(a) + AM(a) + T(a) combination.

[josh381991]

Thanks both for your replies !

 

I have done a bit of tweaking with you're suggestions above along with some match testing on a different save and here are my results below

 

I do have a couple of PI's set

GK - Distribute to teammate ( BPD ), Distribute quickly

CD's - None

BPD - Tackle Harder, Close down much more

WBR + WBL - Close down more, more risky passes, sit wider

BWM - Get further forward

DM - Dribble more, Close down more, Get further forward

AP - Close down more, tackle harder, Get further forward, Roam from position, More direct passing

SS - Roam from position 

CF - Shoot more often ( set for corner tactic )

 

Only played a few games in the premiership so far but not so good as seen below

 

Starting with Sunderland - First goal freak long shot , these happen however the second goal starts to set a bit of a trend,  Number 26 crosses to 18 who scores from wide

 

Next game Leicester -As you can see all 3 are from close range from 9 Vardy. 1 was a cross from 17 again from wide. The other 2 seem to be where he just tore blind apart. 

 

Next game vs Hull the only conceded goal was a set piece.

 

Now we come onto the disaster which was the Arsenal game ! As you can see it shows 2 goals as one was an own goal from a set piece. again the other two where close range. Goal by 17 was again a cross from outside the area from 18. the goal by 15 was a pass through my defence.

 

I have dropped my Wingbacks from attacking to supporting to try to deal with the wide threat and am about to play a few games like this to see what happens. I have also removed the more shooting instruction from my SS.

 

My feeling is that my defenders are very narrow leaving the wing exposed which i am struggling to come up with a solution with only playing WB's and no wingers or IF's.

 

Thanks again

 

 

[Bizarre Own Goal]

Change one of the DMs to a half back. They'll drop back into the defence which will push the CDs wider. They are also a slightly creative force in the team.

[josh381991]

12 hours ago, Bizarre Own Goal said:

Change one of the DMs to a half back. They'll drop back into the defence which will push the CDs wider. They are also a slightly creative force in the team.

Hi Bizarre,

 

Great shout and one i am now deploying to see how it works.

 

 

With this in mind i have moved my WB's back to attacking as in support duty it left the wide forward role very exposed.

[josh381991]

Done a few games deploying Cork as my HB rather than a DM.

Started really well but now i am appearing to struggle again ! 

 

Updated screenshots above but a bit stuck where to go from here !

 

Any help greatly appreciated !

 

Cheers

[Bunkerossian]

On 01. 09. 2017. at 22:49, summatsupeer said:

I personally dislike having 3/3 forward players on Attack duty as it won't offer much variation in movement.  The DLF-A + SS-A will both try and make runs in behind whilst the EG will sit deeper, there's no one trying to drag defenders wide/deep for the runners to run into.  I'd prefer having the forward on Support duty.  Your formation is your defensive positioning, so making triangle on here won't really translate into attacking phase triangles, that will be more from your roles + duties.

Your Wingbacks and RPM will have a lot of responsibility to transition the ball to the front 3, maybe the EG will drop to help, but its something to watchout for.  I think using a less limited role than BWM-D could help, you have 3 CB's to cover, i'd probably start with a DM-S and then add PI's depending how limited the player is with the ball.

Typically when I see players put all there attacks on attack duty I think what they really want is a Team Shape on the Structured side, so the forwards focus more on the attack phase and the defenders focus more on the defending.  If you want all 3 to have pace and to dribble, why a DLF + EG?  They're both more static roles but then you've added Dribble More TI for your WB's but your WB's already are told to Dribble More, so it's not going to affect them but will affect your forwards.  I'd scrap that TI and maybe use a AP-S/A and F9-S,  the AP can drop and help link transitions whilst the F9 creates space for the SS runs.  

Why retain possession + higher tempo?  Your adding urgency with one instruction but then taking it away with another?  Retain Possession will reduce your players risky passes (through balls), but you don't really have that many players looking to play them often with all the deeper players either Rarely or Sometimes looking for them (rather than often).  Maybe just try without either TI and see how things workout?

It really depends what you have available, but try and have a plan of how your going to create your goals.  Who's moving where and whats the goal of the movement, if they're moving in the same direction as another player near them, then your probably lacking variation.

 

Would you say that as a general rule, formations with 3 CB-s need no Defend duty midfielders?

[summatsupeer]

On 9/8/2017 at 10:59, Bunkerossian said:

Would you say that as a general rule, formations with 3 CB-s need no Defend duty midfielders?

What is "needed" depends on what your trying to create, its 1 piece in the puzzle.

On 9/6/2017 at 21:00, josh381991 said:

Thanks both for your replies !

 

I have done a bit of tweaking with you're suggestions above along with some match testing on a different save and here are my results below

 

I do have a couple of PI's set

GK - Distribute to teammate ( BPD ), Distribute quickly

CD's - None

BPD - Tackle Harder, Close down much more

WBR + WBL - Close down more, more risky passes, sit wider

BWM - Get further forward

DM - Dribble more, Close down more, Get further forward

AP - Close down more, tackle harder, Get further forward, Roam from position, More direct passing

SS - Roam from position 

CF - Shoot more often ( set for corner tactic )

...

Thanks again

I'm aware you've change the DM-S to HB-D but lets just look at this list of PI's which is more than a couple!  You have every player except the CBs and ST on "Get Further Forward", that's 6 players looking to make forward runs often, its like your trying to force counter attacks every single attack and have no one deeper looking to recycle possession, its all or nothing on the first attack. You've then got 3/3 of your advanced central players roaming and the wingbacks trying to play passes for the central runners.  Then look at the TI's, Pass Into Space = More Risky Passes, but your CF, SS, AP, BPD and 2x WB already do that in there PIs so this is just getting the BWM + DM/HB to join the party?  Close Down Less but then you've told some players to close down more?  AFAIK players roles+duties don't affect corner routines, until the corner is over and players reset to there positions I THINK its similar to a counter attack and will just do what they think is best.  Telling team to play narrower but then telling the WB's to play wider, why?

I can see why switching the DM-S to HB-D might of helped since it gives a player who will sit and recycle possession but there's an awful lot of other things going on that I'm not sure is needed.  I would personally:

1. Stop pushing d-line higher and then telling them to press less whilst telling some to press more.  Why have 3 CB + 4 DM strata players on Standard mentality and then push them higher like your trying to pressure opponents high up the field?  Your players aren't positioned high up the field because of your formation.
2. If your using playmaker roles and BPD why tell your whole team to try risky passes and more direct passes?  Your making them all try and make plays rather than being more selective and letting the playmakers do there job. They could completely miss out those 4 DM strata players and look for the CF-S / SS-A, if the playmakers have dropped to collect the ball but don't get it they will be deep and hard to catch up with play.  If everyone is looking forward then you don't need playmakers to drop.  If you want play to go through playmakers then don't have everyone else trying to be one and just tweak the PM to be more direct, but make sure he has targets.  If the CM is dropping to get the ball it only leaves the AM + CF advance of him and maybe the WBs (on attack much more likely).  Maybe have a DLP/RPM/Reg in DM who can create and let the CM stay closer to the front two?
3. Distributing to a CB is often risky, they need to control the ball and turn before being able to pass it, often with opposition players very close.
4. What actually is happening vs what you want to happen?  It looks like you've just kept ticking instructions rather than identifying an issue and deciding that X is the best of X, Y or Z options.