Breaking Down the Brazilian Box

[bbgunn]

Hey all!  I’m back after a long absence for some more tactical advice.

I’m currently playing an FM14 save in Brazil managing Figueirense, who were just relegated to the Second Division before I took over.  We were predicted by the media to finish 6^th, and after 17 or so matches we are currently in 4^th place.  However, three things really worry me.

(a) While we are in 4^th place and currently in the promotion zone, only five or so points separate the second place team from the 10^th place team, and we are right in the middle of that.  (Sorry, I’m at work right now and can’t access the game.)  A loss here or there, and we could be farther down the table.

(b) We had a nice six-game unbeaten streak near the beginning of the season, but as other teams have figured us out, we’ve gone through a period of inconsistency, with seemingly random results week to week.  I think in our last ten games, we’ve lost 4, drawn 3 and won 3.

(c)  We beat the top team in the division by far, Palmeiras, on the road 3-1 and dominated, but two weeks later we lost to the last place team, Guarantingueta, 1-0 at home, and we hardly had any chances.  I understand losing 1-0 against a defensive team while piling up 20+ chances, because perhaps we were hit on the counter (the goal came on a set piece, by the way), but we had only 5 chances in that loss, with I believe 1 or 2 on target.  Possession was high, too; we had something like 55% possession with an 80% pass percentage.

I feel like if I don’t do something soon, the bottom is going to fall out.

Anyway, here are the tactics I use.  I run a 4-1-2-1-2 narrow diamond because that is most suitable for the players I have.  I prefer to run something with wingers because most teams in Brazil have narrow formations (usually the 442 Box or a 532, or a Diamond like mine), but the team is broke and I can’t afford to buy any players. 

I use the “Loversleaper method” in that I make tactics for each of the five different strategies in the game, and use one of them based on the match odds, opponent form, etc.  I know that a lot of people advise against that, but for me, that actually works better than having just one tactic.

Here are my tactical setups:

 

 

Standard/Control

AF (a) – CF (s)

Treq (a)

CM (s) – CM (a)

DLP (d)

WB (a) – CD (d) – CD (d) – WB (s)

GK (d)

 

 

Attacking

AF (a) – CF (s)

Treq (a)

CM (s) – CM (a)

DLP (d)

WB (a) – CD (d) – CD (d) – WB (a)

GK (d)

 

 

Counter

AF (a) – CF (s)

AP (s)

CM (s) – BBM (s)

DLP (d)

WB (s) – CD (d) – CD (d) – WB (s)

GK (d)

 

 

I haven’t made a tactic yet for the Defensive strategy as I haven’t needed it yet. 

The Standard/Control setup is based on llama’s Pairs and Combinations guide.  However, I read somewhere that you need to have more attack duties for higher mentalities and more defend/support duties for lower mentalities, so I made such adjustments to my Attacking and Counter tactics.  If I were to need a Defensive strategy, I would put the right WB on defend and perhaps the left CM as well.

Fluidity – Fluid, as per wwfan’s 12-step guide

Team Instructions

Counter – More Direct Passing, Higher Tempo, Work Ball Into Box

others – Work Ball Into Box

I tend to use more TIs depending on how a game is going.  For example, if the opponent is playing more of a possession game, I’ll push the D-line higher, whereas if they seem to be more direct, I’ll drop deeper.  If they are pressing me a bit more, I’ll up the tempo, whereas if they are standing back but cutting off my passes through midfield, I’ll decrease the tempo or Retain Possession.  If I am struggling to create chances (which seems to be often), I’ll up the tempo to go more attacking and also add Pass Into Space.  If the other team is playing with wingers, I’ll add Exploit the Middle.

Player Instructions (for all strategies)

GK – Distribute to Defenders

Wing Backs – Tackle Harder

The two forwards – Close Down More

 

 

PROBLEMS I’VE NOTICED AND POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS

(1) When I’m playing at a lower mentality (Counter), the opponent will patiently pass the ball around until their forwards can pull my center backs out of position and open up space for a running player to attempt a goal one-on-one.  I see this on numerous occasions.  Most of the time it doesn’t result in a goal, but it has a few times, and it’s certainly a worry.  I can’t figure out how to solve this problem.  I can’t tell the central defenders to Close Down Less; that option is not available to them.  My DM is already on Defend.  I suppose I could get him to help out more by putting him on Anchor Man or Half Back, but he is also our most creative player, so I have him as a Deep Lying Playmaker.  Dropping one of the CD’s duty to cover is not good because most of the time we face two opposing strikers.  Adding the TIs Drop Deeper and Stand Off Opponents don’t help things; they in fact may make things worse.  Push Higher Up forces them to play with a bit more urgency, but gives them more space if they do pull one of my CDs out of position.

(2) When I’m playing at a higher mentality (basically anything except Counter), the opponent will pass the ball deep around their defense, then launch a long-range pass to a marauding full back or a striker on the flanks, causing chaos to my defense, then find a runner to attempt and sometimes score a goal.  Okay, I understand that it has to do with my pushing my FBs forward.  I understand that risk, but I do need my FBs forward to add width and add more passing outlets when playing defensive teams.  I wonder what I can do, though, to perhaps stop the long-range passes.  I already have my forwards on Close Down More, and I assume the CM(a) closes down, too.  (I know that the Trequartista doesn’t close down.)

(3) Despite the opponent also playing without wingers and playing with a narrow formation, the opponent will often bring play to one flank, then suddenly switch play to the other flank, usually with a free man on the opposite flank, as my full back has come more central.  That player will often swing a cross into the box, where a player will put a header or a volley into the net.  A lot of goals against me come this way, and it doesn’t seem to matter what mentality I am using.  We are really susceptible to switches to the opposite flank.  Watching the matches more closely, I noticed that my own full backs are usually marking the opposing full backs.  When play moves to one flank, my full back on the opposite side will stay with the opposing full back, and they will have moved to the center of the pitch because everyone has shifted to one side.  An opposing forward will then run to the space on the opposite flank and receive a pass.  Then one of two things happen:

(a) My FB will stay with his opposing FB, leaving the striker with plenty of time and space to pass the ball into a dangerous position, or

(b) My FB will leave his man to close down the striker.  That means the opposing FB has a free run on goal, or my CDs and sometimes even my FB on the other side will shift over to close down that running FB, leaving another opposing player open on the other side.  Again, this happens even on a lower mentality, when I’m supposed to have more of a structured tactical shape.

I honestly have no clue what to do in this situation.  Tell my FB to Close Down Less?  Have my CDs Tight Mark so that they stay with the strikers?  (That seems really dangerous, by the way.)

(4) When on a Control or Attacking mentality, I will often have at least 55% possession and over 80% pass percentage – even while using no TIs other than Work Ball Into Box – but will generate very few shots (I’m talking 5 or so a match), and hardly any on target.  This is a mystery to me because I would assume that my guys would have a lot of shots.  I could see having 15+ shots a game without scoring a goal, and perhaps having a lot of shots blocked or something like that.  But my players aren't even getting shots off.   Passes will be missed, there will be a lack of communication and sometimes indecision, headers will fly to the touchline, balls will be intercepted, crosses will fly harmlessly over goal, etc.  Using TIs such as More Direct Passing and Higher Tempo will create more shots, but they will be pot shots and hardly any will be on target.  Going slower and using shorter passing will increase my possession and pass percentage, but won’t increase chances.  I’ve tried Drop Deeper and Play Wider, but this seems to leave us more susceptible to counter attacks, especially with both FBs pushing up.  I’m thinking about trying to play my Counter strategy in these cases.

Anyway, that’s a lot there.  Any advice would be helpful, and feel free to ask for more information if you need it.

Oh, I forgot to add that my team is a highly technical one with average speed compared to other teams in the division, but my central defenders are somewhat slow and seem not to be so good in the air even with tall height and good jumping/heading attributes.

[BlueAnderson]

1 hour ago, bbgunn said:

However, I read somewhere that you need to have more attack duties for higher mentalities and more defend/support duties for lower mentalities

It's actually the other way around pal!

What sort of football are you trying to get your team to play? Let's start with that, because I can see a lot of mismatches.

[bbgunn]

20 minutes ago, BlueAnderson said:

It's actually the other way around pal!

What sort of football are you trying to get your team to play? Let's start with that, because I can see a lot of mismatches.

Thank you for the comment.  The other way around?  First time to hear that.  I read on a Cleon post on his sisportscentre blog that when you use a skin to see the opposition's roles and duties, the AI uses something like 0-1 attack duties for Defensive and Counter, 3 for Standard, and so on.  Loversleaper posted the same thing on his Tactical Central thread.  I'll try doing it the other way and see what happens.

With a narrow diamond, I want to play an attacking game consisting of short but quick passes to confuse the other team.  I want to go at a fast pace when playing deep, but I know when playing higher up I'll need to change it up a bit and go slower.  With my team usually facing deep box formations, I need a lot of movement up the pitch to break down the defense, hence the Treq and Complete Forward.  My DM is my most creative player, so I want him dictating play, getting balls to either my running CM or the Treq, who in turn will get the two forwards involved.  The Advanced Forward should be the leading goal threat.

[herne79]

4 hours ago, bbgunn said:

However, I read somewhere that you need to have more attack duties for higher mentalities and more defend/support duties for lower mentalities

 

2 hours ago, BlueAnderson said:

It's actually the other way around pal!

There is no "need" either way.  It is entirely up to you and how you want to set your team up to play.

AI managers tend to have more attack duty players as they increase mentality, but that's just how the AI works and there is no need for us to follow suit.

[bbgunn]

54 minutes ago, herne79 said:

 

There is no "need" either way.  It is entirely up to you and how you want to set your team up to play.

AI managers tend to have more attack duty players as they increase mentality, but that's just how the AI works and there is no need for us to follow suit.

Ah, OK, that's good to know.  Thank you herne79. 

I will, however, experiment with fewer attack duties in my Attacking tactic.  It does make some sense that the full backs shouldn't go too far up when the team as a whole is already high up the pitch.  That should reduce the risk of counters against my team.  I'll make some adjustments that seem logical, then watch some matches and see how it goes.

[bbgunn]

In a small bit of rage, yesterday while doing chores I put the Figueirense save on holiday for a good chunk of the season, just to get some of it over with.  I had my assistant manager use my Counter tactic as described above but let him choose the side, and I left him alone before stopping after 10 or so matches.  I thought we'd sink to mid-table, but surprisingly my assistant manager did a lot better than I imagined and the team was still in 4th place.

Anyway, at that point we had a match away to Sport Recife, who was in 2nd place.  Sport were heavy favorites, so it was a good opportunity for me to create a tactic using the Defensive strategy.  Instead of doing what I mentioned above (having mostly defend and support duties), I decided to try what BlueAnderson suggested and mix in a lot of attacking duties.  I had both full backs, my right CM, and my advanced forward on attack duties, and I also set my AM to Trequartista.

It was as I expected.  Sport had several chances, and although none were CCCs, I felt like they were just dominating the game and spraying shots at will.  As for Figueirense, I had many players making forward runs up the pitch, of course, but in transition periods the players sitting back had a lot of trouble getting the ball up the pitch that far, especially with Sport heavily pressing.   When we would intercept a pass, it was usually one of my DCs or my DLP who had the ball, and there was always a gap between them and the attacking players, with a mass of Sport players in between.  I had no TIs aside from Work Into the Box at first, but I later added More Direct Passing in an attempt to get the ball up the pitch in a hurry, but this didn't make any noticeable difference.  Needless to say, we had no shots at all.  We weren't even getting close to the opposition goal.

One thing I noticed while watching the match was that Sport, who were using a 4-2-2-2 Box, were keeping four of their players far back at all times (both CDs and both FBs, for the most part) while sending the other six players far forward, and I could neither stop them nor take advantage of the gap between their defenders and forwards.  I was in great awe of their ability to have their forwards drift wide, almost to the touchline, to find space and put in crosses into the box for the other forward or a midfielder.  With the ability to play on the flanks from a narrow formation, they had an extremely dangerous and effective attack, one I tried to emulate before.  I could never get my forwards to do that, even if I put them on Roam from Position.

After about 20 minutes of this I decided to put an end to it, and I massively reduced the number of attacking duties to the point where my advanced forward was the only one left making runs, although I also set my right CM as a Box-to-Box Mid.   We improved a lot defensively; Sport was still getting close to the goal, but we were blocking more shots and intercepting more passes.  It didn't do much for us offensively, though; my defenders had more passing options, but we were still stuck in our own half. 

At the 30 minute mark, and to the contrary of wwfan's guide on fluidity, I switched to a Rigid shape, despite having only a DLP and a Treq.   I noticed the players were somewhat spread out more after that on offense, which increased our possession to about 50%, but still didn't get us close to Sport's goal.  We were stopping their shots, though.

In the end, it was a 0-0 draw.  Sport had 14 shots, which I believe 6 or 7 were on target (I'm at work so I can't check the match stats), and we finished with no shots.  I suppose I should be happy with a 0-0 draw away to a team that is more talented and higher than us on the table, but it frustrates me that our offense is so anemic.  That has been the prevailing theme this season.  Defensively we are okay, but our offense is pretty terrible among the teams in the top half of the division. 

I played two more games after that, both at home.  We were slight favorites in both so I used my Control tactic for both.  The first game, against ABC, we won 2-0, mainly because they played a wide diamond.  I set both my FBs to support to better defend their wingers, and changed my CM(s) to a BBM to get more runs in the center of the pitch where they had a gap, and it was quite effective.  Possession was 50/50 and we both had around 9 shots, but my team made theirs count.

The second match, though, we were not so lucky.  We lost 2-0 to America (MG), another team playing the 4-2-2-2 Box.  Both of their goals came the same way: their right-sided forward drifted wide after we gave the ball away in the opposition half, received a long-range pass, dribbled down the right touchline, and put in a cross from near the byline to a runner in the box, who volleyed it into the net.  My left back started out on an attack duty, and after the first goal I set him to a support duty, but it didn't help prevent the second goal.  I can just chalk it up to the fact that their forward was talented and matched up better against my left back, but again, I'm in awe of their ability, like Sport, to have their forwards drift wide into the space on the flanks and receive passes in dangerous positions.  I can't get my forwards to do that for the life of me.   I have one forward on Complete Forward (support), but he doesn't drift wide early enough and not deep enough to really take advantage of the space on the flanks.

The real problem in that America match, however, was again our inability to even get off shots against a Box formation.  We had two shots the entire game, none on target, despite playing a Control mentality.  I'm beginning to think that the narrow diamond is just ineffective against the Box.   Unfortunately, my best four players play at DM, AM, DM/MC, and F, and we have no wingers.  I can't really think of a better formation to counter the Box with the players I have.

Another thing I'm wondering about is whether or not I'm doing it wrong with this team by using a different strategy per match based on match odds.  We seem to play better with the Counter tactic (but not always).  We beat Palmeiras 3-1 using that tactic, among other teams.  Despite the offensive woes, we did draw away to Sport.  But we struggle with higher mentalities against lower-rated teams.

[bbgunn]

CHANGING MY APPROACH

After the America (MG) match, I decided to stop using the "Loversleaper method" as described in the first post in this thread.  It worked well for me on previous saves, but for some reason, on this save... not so much.  I think part of the reason is that, while this Figueirense team has capable players in attack and at DM, we are relatively poor at DC and at FB.  Perhaps not coincidentally, I think we've been playing better using a Counter strategy, as it keeps our D-line deep.    Plus, I think that, mainly playing against the Brazilian Box formation with 2 MCs and 2 DMCs, using a higher mentality is pointless because it just throws my players straight into that mess of 6-8 players in the opposition penalty area.  With a diamond - well, perhaps any formation - we are always going to be outnumbered there.  Makes more sense to play deeper, pass the ball around, and hope for gaps to appear that we can take advantage of.

So, I changed to this setup:

AF (a) – DLF (s)

AM (s)

CM (s) – CM (a)

DLP (d)

WB (a) – CD (d) – CD (d) – WB (s)

GK (d)

Mentality is Counter.  I also went against the wwfan guidelines for fluidity and switched to Very Rigid.  I think when we were deep in our own half and won possession, we were too deep to effectively get out of our half.  Using Very Rigid spaces us out more vertically and gives us more options, I feel.  I also like that my WBL won't get too far up the pitch on an Attack duty under Very Rigid.

The only team instructions are Work Ball Into Box, Shorter Passing and Play Wider, the last one in an additional attempt to space out my players.  The only player instructions are Distribute to Defenders for my GK.

No more switching mentality based on match odds.  I'm sticking with Counter until I see a real need to change it in match, and even then it might just be up to Standard.

Notice that I also took off the Trequartista role from my AM and just made him an AM(s).  The reasoning is that I don't want players trying to get the ball to him too much, because most of the time he'll be smack in the middle of the opposition's DMCs and MCs.  Better to focus on my DLP at DM, as most of the time he will be unmarked.  The AM is on a Support duty because I felt like at times my AM, CM(a) and DLF were all bunched together while in possession.  I'm hoping the AM(s) will stay deeper and out of the way, and if that works, I just have to figure out how to keep my CM(a) and DLF away from each other.

ANOTHER FORMATION?

After I did all of that tweaking to my Diamond tactic, I came upon another idea to try - a 4132.  When I stacked my Diamond formation on top of a Box formation, my free men were my two FBs and a DM, whereas the opposition also had two free FBs and a free DM.  Basically a wash.  That means the team with better players is going to win most of the time. 

If I stack a 4132 on top of a Box, however, my free men are my two FBs, my DM, and one of my MCs.  Theirs are their FBs and their two DMCs.  So I have a free man closer to the opposition goal.  If anything, that should help me build up attacking plays better.

So I came up with this system:

AF (a) – DLF (s)

 

DLP (s) - BBM (s) – CM (a)

Anchor (d)

WB (a) – CD (d) – CD (d) – WB (s)

GK (d)

The mentality, fluidity, TIs and PIs are exactly the same as my Diamond formation.  The idea here is to use the 4132 against the Box, and the narrow diamond against a formation that would leave my AM free.

I've played three matches so far after making these changes.

away to Palmeiras (in 1st place)

As I mentioned before, we beat them 3-1 at home earlier this season (I said away before, sorry about that).  They play a 532 with wingbacks and no DM, so I deployed my Diamond.  We played a very even match, and the 1-1 tie reflected that, although our goal was a fluky long shot from my WBL from 30 meters out.  The match stats were basically even; we both had about 9 shots and 2-3 on target, and possession was 50/50.  I think having a free AM and the spacing from using Very Rigid really helped us out against a much better team. 

One problem, though, was that Palmeiras was really working their right flank (against our WBa).  I put him on a Support duty at halftime which helped his defense, but because of his PPMs he likes to get forward often.  That is one thing I can't figure out.  He is a speedy player with good passing and crossing attributes, and pushing him forward to provide width is very helpful, but we often get killed on the counter on that side of the pitch, and that leads to most of our goals (I can't recall if the Palmeiras goal was a result of that, but I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case). 

Overall, though, I can't be too upset about drawing 1-1 away to Palmeiras.

away to Guaratingueta (19th place)

They upset us 1-0 at our place earlier in the season because we couldn't create any shots.  They run a Box, so I tried out my 4132 for the first time.  The result, a 2-0 win.  I think we only had 54% possession, but our passing percentage was in the high 80s, and my players seemed to have more options in the midfield.  With my team sitting deeper and having no AM, the opposition had to come out of their shell a little, which allowed my forwards more space.  Our first goal was a beautiful play, with our DLP passing a through ball to my AF, who in turn passed it to my DLF who was running towards the penalty box.  The DLF made a successful shot from the top of the box.

home vs Ceara (6th place)

This was a very important match because we were in 4th place and only three points ahead of Ceara.  They play the Box, so again we went with the 4132, but the results were different from the Guarantingueta game: a 2-0 loss.  Once again, we had trouble getting into the opposition half.  The Counter theoretically gave our attackers more space up the pitch, but our defenders couldn't get the ball to them because Ceara were all over us.  Notably, our DLP was marked out of the game, and I couldn't figure out what to do in that situation. 

The first Ceara goal was on a set piece - a beautiful cross and a perfect header.  Not much we could have done about that.

The second Ceara goal was more baffling.  Their right FB had intercepted the ball near their own goal line, and we had them pinned back.  But then that FB launched a long-range pass to a teammate - a forward - who was in a lot of space on - you guessed it - our left flank.  Chaos ensued as our team tried to get back and organize... which we did, as the Ceara player held up the ball.  But then, their MCR sprinted past our three MCs on the right side, then did the same to my DCs and DM, who didn't challenge him.  Parallel with my DCL, the MCR received a pass from his teammate out on the flanks and, uncontested with lots of space, one-timed it into the back of our net.

I watched that replay over and over, and I could come to only three conclusions:

(1) Their midfielder was on the same side of the pitch as my DLP(s) and BBM(s).  Perhaps giving the DLP a Defend duty might have helped things.

(2) Again, our left flank gave us trouble.  If my WBL had been on a Support duty, maybe that play wouldn't have happened.

(3) Maybe their MCR is just good.

For now, I'm going to assume (3); Ceara is a top team that is probably underperforming.  I'll keep an eye open in future matches to see if (1) and (2) are valid problems, though.

[bbgunn]

I just read in this forum thread that to get my forwards to drift wide, like I was seeing the AI forwards do, I should give them the "Move Into Channels" PI.  According to that thread, it works like the old "sarrows" waaaay back in ye olden FM tymes. 

I'm thinking that getting both my forwards to move into channels would help shred that defensive Brazilian Box and give, say, an onrushing AM or CM space to attempt a shot in the area.  Am I wrong in thinking that?

Any advice regarding tearing apart a Brazilian Box and making space for my attackers?

 

[Jean0987654321]

I would just use wingers. When you are against a Magic Box, you have to remember that they only have one player on the wings in each side. So, I'll say play with wingers and a lot of wide play and hit them on  the break

[bbgunn]

On 2016/11/3 at 00:41, Jean0987654321 said:

I would just use wingers. When you are against a Magic Box, you have to remember that they only have one player on the wings in each side. So, I'll say play with wingers and a lot of wide play and hit them on  the break

Sorry to reply so late.  Thank you for the reply! 

Yeah, using wingers would be my first plan of action against the Magic Box.  Creating overloads on the flanks would be a nice way of breaking down the opposition in Brazil.  However, Figueirense is cash-strapped, so I either have to do what I've been doing, which is to use a narrow formation and find ways to use that to win, or play players out of position in the winger slots.