[FM16] Need Help with my 4-2-3-1! Can't score with Possesion and a leaky defense

[Hootieleece]

Hello everyone! I am playing with a 4-2-3-1 in Ligue 2. with the Clermont Foot 63.

I used it to good effect last season in Ligue 2 reaching 9th place while tipped for regulation. This season same players(for the most part) seem to find every way not to score and make defensive mistakes. I have gone 12 games without a win this season...........

I'm Looking for help in general with the formation since I will try it again at my next job............

I generally play on standard/control at home and defensive on the road. I maintain 55-65% possession, but usually get outshot and outscored especially in away matches.

This is my team formation and roles and duties:

This is my TI's:

This is my usual selection of players:

Thanks again for any help.

Just post in the thread if there is any other info needed to help.

[bababooey]

Can you just tell us what style of football you are trying to pull off?

I think your issues are basically down to the flanks. From what I can see.

- You're using 2 wingers in in your 4-2-3-1 which means you'll be decently wide, but your central threat seems a bit lacking.

- You've got a fullback on defend (which I don't think is wise) and then a fullback on auto, which again I don't think is wise (why concede control over your player to the AI?)

- Because you're playing on "standard" the "auto" fullback is basically going to be a support player (I'm not 100% sure, but maybe someone can clarify which mentality = which duty for automatic?) Regardless, he won't be very attacking, and neither is your defend duty left back so you really lack any threat from your back line, which is going to hurt your ability to create chances and score goals.

- Why are you using the offsides trap with a d-line that is basically like a medium block? I wouldn't use offsides trap unless my team was really pushed up high. It's a high risk strategy, plus you already have a cover-defend partnership for your CD's, the offsides trap is better suited for the same role/duty so players don't get too separated.

- Why are you looking to retain possession from the get-go? Retain possession is going to lower your teams tempo a bit, and reduce passing length /risk. It's going to be harder to create chances this way, and of course, score goals.

[Hootieleece]

I am trying to create a grind it out all purpose formation. I like possession because that helps cover up my defense. I am getting walloped by counter attacks by AI teams that park the bus against me. I have some of the fastest defenders in the league yet over the top balls are killing me that and AI wingers who seem to be able to hit magic crosses while most of mine are closed down perfectly.

I am trying to make a balanced tactic. That is why I have the fullbacks on auto and defend. Plus that is the roles my players are suppose to be best at.

[bababooey]

I am trying to create a grind it out all purpose formation. I like possession because that helps cover up my defense. I am getting walloped by counter attacks by AI teams that park the bus against me. I have some of the fastest defenders in the league yet over the top balls are killing me that and AI wingers who seem to be able to hit magic crosses while most of mine are closed down perfectly.

I am trying to make a balanced tactic. That is why I have the fullbacks on auto and defend. Plus that is the roles my players are suppose to be best at.

Okay, a few points:

1. One tactic as an "all-purpose" solution isn't a wise idea unless you make it incredibly simple so that you can make changes in matches. In other words, a tactic with no TI's or PI's, and a shape that you feel fits your team, with other shapes in your head that also work, that could be used in other circumstances.

2. I like possession too, and I also don't want to get smacked on the counter. Here's how to do that. You need to look at how the AI is hitting you on the break. Are your midfielders not tracking back? Is the defensive line too high? Are there any players who are closing down too much and leaving space? Are you ineffective in the tackle? Asking yourself these questions is how you can diagnose your issues.

If you want to play a possession system I recommend using the counter or defensive mentality. Standard is okay too, but you'll want to compensate by using fewer attacking duties. Fewer attacking duties = more players supporting = better positioning for keeping possession because players wont be charging into space looking to score.

3. Having 1 full back on auto and the other on defend ins't a balanced tactic. Balanced would be like.. FB-A / FB-S. if you're looking to keep the ball and not get hit on the break, using both fullbacks as FB-S would be ideal to start with.

4. Crossing is hard to deal with in this match engine IMHO, some may disagree with me, but I agree at times it can seem a bit weird. However, you mentioned the AI are getting them to work so, have you looked at how that's happening? And how yours are being closed down? Are your players waiting too long to cross?

5. I think you may be a bit too open in central midfield after taking a second look. Try 2 holding players like CM-D + DLP-S. That way you've got a more solid base for your front 4. Currently the CM-D is going to close down a bit more, and the CM-S is not a holding player. So you can imagine that you'd be pretty open there. I'm guessing you get hit on the break through the middle a fair amount, right? I wouldn't be shocked if this is the main problem you face actually because you have very defensive flanks.

[Hootieleece]

I made a few changes and tweaks based on your first advice. I got rid of retain possession and the offside trap TI's. I changed my FB roles to LFB-A and RFB-S. By doing that I became much better at attacking in my next few games. (outscored opposition 14-2 in 4 games) still needs tweaking against stronger sides.

My Fullbacks take forever to decide to cross and the one I really want to do it has a 13 crossing skill 10 plus vision and decisions. I'm probably going to switch the winger and FB roles due to ppm's. My fullbacks, AP, and Striker are often closed down and marked with two players by AI.

I get a lot of AI work through the middle in their initial attacks then out wide to a FB or winger who then crosses it to an unmarked Striker. Even after using opposition instructions to close down the wingers and fullbacks and mark the Strikers.

I have other tactics a 4-3-3 Narrow and a 4-1-3-2 DM wide with similar roles and TI's.

I'm using 4-2-3-1 because it works with the players available and the coaches I have.

[Hootieleece]

I have played some more and my defense is still leaky. AI players run around unmarked and not closed down.

[hamayumi]

Check the pace & acceleration attributes of your front four and and back four. This determines 1-on-1 capabilities.

Other attributes may contribute to the capability of the offensive front to execute multiple attacking patterns. If you are ramming your attackers into their line without any manipulation of spacing for a clear shot or supply in the first place, then kiss your clear cut chances goodbye.

Issues such as interceptions from attempted crosses or even cutbacks for those long shots. Issue with crosses and getting burned is a tall tell sign that you must alter either your mentality, depth of defensive line, general shape so that your fullback/wingers may close down and a DM could rotate to the vacant space.

The 4-2-3-1 shape has gaps all around the central midfielders so that is the risk you take for establishing that 55-65% possession.

Rather than relying on closing down perfectly, others have employed funneling penetration on the flanks since well your team's shape has gaps there. Therefore, creating stop gaps on the flanks would give you an option for two players closing down on that winger looking to cross, rather that just one player closing down. Unfortunately having two central midfielders reduces that possibility.

PI's for your fullbacks, since you are relying on them in the attacking third for supply, is to assign more direct passing.

[Hootieleece]

I have the Fastest Defense in the League yet my CB's and FB's always get burned when chasing AI strikers and FB's when AI is on Counterattack. When I am on counterattack my Striker with 16 pace and acceleration gets caught from behind by multiple defenders who proceed to block his shot.

[bababooey]

I have the Fastest Defense in the League yet my CB's and FB's always get burned when chasing AI strikers and FB's when AI is on Counterattack. When I am on counterattack my Striker with 16 pace and acceleration gets caught from behind by multiple defenders who proceed to block his shot.

You cannot rely on attributes as a determinant of what will happen on the pitch. Tactics matter too! If your fast defenders are getting burned, then I would say that suggests a problem with their positioning to begin with. Or, perhaps your team is prone to turning the ball over in a dangerous space? Or maybe your center backs aren't very aware? etc. etc.

[Hootieleece]

I finished the season. I finished 14th in Ligue2. Defense is my biggest problem scored 62 goals and allowed 70! I had a 13 game(10 wins) unbeaten streak that saved me from relegation. So I know the players can do it and play good defense.

Other big problem every team came after my players and they all wanted to leave and fractured the dressing room.

[bababooey]

I finished the season. I finished 14th in Ligue2. Defense is my biggest problem scored 62 goals and allowed 70! I had a 13 game(10 wins) unbeaten streak that saved me from relegation. So I know the players can do it and play good defense.

Other big problem every team came after my players and they all wanted to leave and fractured the dressing room.

If defending is the issue then I would recommend a more cautious defending style where you do not press, and thus, you'd be better off using a more defensive overall team mentality.

Something like:

-Counter or Standard

-Whatever team shape you like

- 2-3 attack duties, but no more than that

- No added TI or PI for closing down more / higher d-line

The idea with that setup above is that you want to be harder to break down, and that you'll hopefully be able to hold onto possession when you have the ball. That'll make you somewhat harder to beat, which is what you need if you're fighting to stay up as you are.

But you also mentioned a 13 game unbeaten streak so... You seem to be all over the place performance wise

[Hootieleece]

I'm in the next season with the team and the basic problem remains the same. Leaking stupid goals especially from crosses. Even in a game where I had 60% possession and dominated shots and ccc's. I lost to a team 3-0. They had 4 shots and no ccc's and all the goals came from "magic bullet" crosses that went through or around my defenders.

I will try the non closing down and non higher d-line.

[bababooey]

I'm in the next season with the team and the basic problem remains the same. Leaking stupid goals especially from crosses. Even in a game where I had 60% possession and dominated shots and ccc's. I lost to a team 3-0. They had 4 shots and no ccc's and all the goals came from "magic bullet" crosses that went through or around my defenders.

I will try the non closing down and non higher d-line.

It sounds like your team is too attacking down the flanks, and being left out of position to properly defend crosses. Not closing down and a lower d-line aren't necessarily going to fix the problem in the way you'd hope. I think you're going to just add on to the problem.

Here's what you can do (and trust me this will help).....

Start simple. Remove all the TI's and any PI's. Look at your set up of roles/duties, team mentality, and team shape. Do those selections suit what you're trying to do tactically? Is their any clearly defined style of play? Furthermore, what is your objective? You cannot expect 1 style of play to work well in every match. My realization with FM tactics is basically this: you cannot create a tactic for the purpose of winning, but rather, for the purpose of achieving the style of play you want to see on the pitch.

[axehan1]

Do you pay any attention to the opposition before a game?I find that if you set up your back four on a game by game basis you can stop the opposition.

Are they playing with wingers?Set your fullbacks to stay wide and force them inside.

Are they playing with inside forwards?Set your fullbacks to sit narrow and force them outside.

Are their forwards quicker than your defenders?If you see balls over the top then you may need to adjust your defensive line.

Something as simple as a scout report can help you out.Where do the assists come from?Should i adjust a fullback duty because all the assists are coming down the side of my attacking full back?

I play 4231 too,roles and duties are different of course

But defensively we are very solid

I pay attention to the opposition and try and identify where the attacks will come from.

[Hootieleece]

I tried the non high d line, changed the fullbacks to support. Mentality to counterattack and lessened closing down. It has only been one game but I am pleased with the 2-2 draw. I was much less vulnerable to crosses. I even went up 2-0. Didn't really change anything but lost to to freak goals in the closing minutes.

Will train on match tactics to get the formation and orders to fluid before passing judgement.