Pep Guardiola's Bayern - Mentality and fluidity

[MR11]

I am trying to create Bayern tactics and I got stuck at mentality and fluidity. Formation 3-5-2 or 3-4-3, options that occur to me are:

Counter+Very fluid (push up)

Counter+Flexible (push up)

Control+Flexible

Control+Very fluid

Attacking+Flexible (lower tempo)

I want my team to look like Bayern, to keep the ball 60+% of the time, but I can't decide the starting point of my tactics. Thanks in advance.

[Jambo98]

If you want to play like Bayern, you will need to be adapting a lot in-game. Pep changes his approach 2/3 times per game usually.

It is very hard to properly reflect Pep's "mentality", as he operates almost a split system. His defenders and pivote are asked to take very few risks, almost defensive in mentality as he wants patience and and ball retention. Then once the ball reaches the front 3/4 (Striker, 2 wide men and the attacking CM), they are encouraged to try the killer ball and take some risks.

Add to that, Peps' overall view that football should be "attack, attack, attack".

Depending on which bayern setup you want to reflect (he has a few - The use of IWB, the use of "false winger", the more basic 433, the false 9), i would probably think control but with appropriate PI on the defenders to pass shorter.

Good luck

[jackane24]

I've got a game going with Standard - Very Structured, much higher defensive line. Had 700 completed passes a couple of games ago. He has a very rigid set-up in that each player has a job to do. Very fluid is completely wrong IMO.

[declanelcocks]

I've seen a few people using counter claiming that it plays a bit like Bayern in real life, especially with the build up play, but I've never used it so I'd also be interested what people think

[Jambo98]

I've got a game going with Standard - Very Structured, much higher defensive line. Had 700 completed passes a couple of games ago. He has a very rigid set-up in that each player has a job to do. Very fluid is completely wrong IMO.

I dont think it is as straightforward as that. Each player has very specific responsibilities, but that is more about his training approach and his overall man management. On the pitch, there is an element of players having more than one job to do, and being asked to contibute to multiple phases. Add to that he encourages players to add an element of "personalisation" to their game - do what they do best. He also allows a lot of creative freedom to his forward players. Robben and Ribery are very much allowed freedom to play as they see fit. The central attacking midfielder is somewhere in between. He is absolutely drilled in when to go forward and when to stay put, but within that he is a allowed freedom to move. There are several players who will fulfill this same role and it likely something like 70% dictated how they each play, then 30% of freedom. How Goetze players when played there is very different to how Thiago might play.

Overall, part of the reason Pep is so succesfull is that his system contains a variety of different approaches within one. Its quite hard to reflect in FM at the moment though.

[Lilah]

FM might have trouble adapting in the future to tactical systems such as Guardiola's that undergo a metamorphosis through each stage of play and defensive contingency.

http://www.bavarianfootballworks.com/2014/8/5/5960443/pep-guardiola-bayern-munich-tactics-3-4-3-formation-lineup

http://www.bavarianfootballworks.com/2013/7/17/4530782/bayern-munich-pep-guardiola-4-1-4-1-tactics-flexibility-schweinsteiger-kroos-alcantara-martinez

[MR11]

If you want to play like Bayern, you will need to be adapting a lot in-game. Pep changes his approach 2/3 times per game usually.

It is very hard to properly reflect Pep's "mentality", as he operates almost a split system. His defenders and pivote are asked to take very few risks, almost defensive in mentality as he wants patience and and ball retention. Then once the ball reaches the front 3/4 (Striker, 2 wide men and the attacking CM), they are encouraged to try the killer ball and take some risks.

Add to that, Peps' overall view that football should be "attack, attack, attack".

Depending on which bayern setup you want to reflect (he has a few - The use of IWB, the use of "false winger", the more basic 433, the false 9), i would probably think control but with appropriate PI on the defenders to pass shorter.

Good luck

1. I am willing to adapt, but there has to be some basic mentality and fluidity to start a tactic.

2. Yap, defenders tend to play safe, but attack-minded players also play defense, so I tend to a more fluid setup. I, as a manager, tend to use Flexible setup, but I'm not sure if it is appropriate for Bayern.

3. True, the number of shots per game and overall philosophy are the reason I have Attack+Flexible (lower tempo) in mind.

4. As for the roles, IWB is the one I actually want to reflect (352). Could you give me links to some analysis of "false winger" role in Guardiola's Bayern?

[Jambo98]

Unfortunately the IWB role in FM does not yet function correctly, as far as i know (RTH might know more - it was a bit of a pet of his )

The "false winger" i think he actually might refer to as "false attacking midfielder". Effectively it was the idea that because Ribery and Robben play so far upfield, and that Pep always wants to cut off counter attacks "at source" (eg before they get as far forward as his defence), he would effectively position his fullbacks so far up field, that they would be inline with the "attacking midfielders" (which his term for the 2 x CM players in his side).

So in effect, his formation becomes 2 - 1 - 4 - 2 - 1

2 x CB

1 x DM (the pivote, often characterized as the 3rd Center back, because of his instructions to come deep and collect/distribute the ball)

2 x WM (Probably DW, creating the "false" effect with them dropping back into fullback positions when required)

2 x CM (reffered to by Pep as "Attacking midfielders, and one is always ultra attacking, the other varies depending on game situation)

2 x IF/W (In the AM strata - Robben generally stays wider like a winger, Ribery cuts in and even plays as a false 9 at times)

1 x ST (in season 1, this would be an F9 of sorts, with Lewandowski there is much more ability to vary the game).

In many ways, it is what has become charactarised as his "343" formation.

The only place i have seen the explanation of the "False attacking midfielder" is in the book "Pep confidential" by Marti Perarnau which is an excellent read. He spent a year with full access to Pep and his staff and all Bayerns training sessions.

[bdixon]

This has been an obsession of mine with every FM, due to the restrictions within the ME you won't be able to repliccate Bayern's tactic 100% but there are some elements you could. Like the high pressing/high passing style.

Choosing the mentality is one of the hardest decisions, most would think control as the I game descriptions are pretty close to how Bayern play. But for me I've went with counter with push higher/press more, I have also choose shorter passing/high tempo so you get the short quick passing style.

I hope this post opens up the floor to a discussion to create the perfect Bayern style.

[quaazi]

Frankly - you can't replicate Pep's game this season in FM. There's no "attacking centerback" role like Alaba played for a while, there sweeper keeper role is laughably conservative (seriously, is there even a difference between the SW/A and GK/D roles when it comes to movement?), there's no way to have you deep playmaker both rack up 180 passes per game AND attempt long raking diagonal passes at the same time, there's no way to instruct wingers to ACTUALLY pick up central positions (a wider problem with lack of positional fluidity, really)... you can't replicate any of this with the current match engine.

[Jambo98]

Whilst i do agree about the sweeper keeper, in that it is hard to replicate Neuer's extreme interpretation (via Pep) of the role, the rest of it can in some ways be created with the right instructions and PPM's.

With the "attacking centre back", in many ways Alaba seemed to almost player like a Libero. The complication being he didnt start in the middle of a 3. From the clips i can see, he has fulfilled this role both on the left side of a 3 CB system and then even as the Left CB in a back 4 (which becomes a 3).

Part of the reason that players do different things "in game", is that Pep has several systems and has very rarely, if ever, used only one for the entire 90mins at Bayern. His players are fully versed in many "shapes". He see's formations as irrelevant in football (in terms of the "numbers" given - 343, 4141,433, etc). Each player has a duty and purpose, and the area of the pitch in which they perform that duty will vary depending on the behavior of his team mates, the game situation, the opponent behavior and the individual players "DNA".

To try and recreate it would take mirco management of every player's attributes, TI, PI, PPM and then where you choose to place them on the "formation" screen.

Remember that Pep spends something like a minimum of 25hrs, usually more, researching every single opposition team before choosing his shape. He will adapt always to exploit weakness in the opposition so you cant really replicate him in FM unless you are prepared to constantly adapt also.

All in all, a real challenge but there are several elements you can create in game, with the right level of effort and attention

[quaazi]

With the "attacking centre back", in many ways Alaba seemed to almost player like a Libero. The complication being he didnt start in the middle of a 3. From the clips i can see, he has fulfilled this role both on the left side of a 3 CB system and then even as the Left CB in a back 4 (which becomes a 3).

Damn, good spot! Now I want to try it out in the game.

[Flohrinho]

Yeah Alaba has been vital to Bayern this season but I'm not even sure he is a Libero starting on the left CB position but more of a free roaming CB. There were games where Alaba didn't move back into defense at all especially against teams that were parking the bus he was basically the fourth man up front in the 3-4-3 helping the three attackers with pressing the back four of their opponent. I doubt this role can really be recreated in FM as it not only requires one of the CBs to move out of defense and into attack but also to act really smart and to know in which situations he can do this and when it will be to risky and he is needed in a more defensive postion.

I absolutely loved the concept though as makes your setup extremely Flexible int he sense that you can have a spare man at the back and one up front but of course there wouldn't even be a lot players out there who could pull this off, not many players can combine the engine of Alaba with his skill and intelligent play. I feel a younger version of Lahm would have probably been capable of playing this role as well.

[MR11]

Frankly - you can't replicate Pep's game this season in FM. There's no "attacking centerback" role like Alaba played for a while, there sweeper keeper role is laughably conservative (seriously, is there even a difference between the SW/A and GK/D roles when it comes to movement?), there's no way to have you deep playmaker both rack up 180 passes per game AND attempt long raking diagonal passes at the same time, there's no way to instruct wingers to ACTUALLY pick up central positions (a wider problem with lack of positional fluidity, really)... you can't replicate any of this with the current match engine.

Alaba's role is impossible due to the limitations of the roles and duties system. Roles just have to be more flexible. Also, Alonso's role could be quite hard to replicate, since his movement looks like HB, but he has to have the highest number of passes, which doesn't quite happen in FM. Neuer's role is impossible, SK doesn't even participate in build-up play.

But, even without Alaba and Neuer, I find it quite hard to replicate high pressing game, since pressing is even worse tham FM14 and earlier versions. It is not intense enough, even with CD much more + CD in opposition instructions.