My struggling Black Cats

[AusBlackCat]

In FM13 I had a tactic that worked really well, but I am honestly struggling so much with this years game. Nothing I do really seems to work, after so much trial and error and reading I finally decided to create a thread as I need help!

I'm using my beloved Sunderland. They have some decent players in Johnson, Fletcher, Scocco, Giaccherini. I've tried numerous formations and strategies and nothing has really worked. I struggle to keep the ball out of my own net, and struggle even more to put it in my own net.

I realise my team isn't the greatest and will struggle to play like the top teams. I do however know that with 2 decent wingers and some decent strikers there is something to work with. A slow defense and average full backs also isn't much of a help.

I know I'll probably have to sit reasonably deep as playing a high line with slow cb's is a recipe for disaster. With a few decent DM's in the team with the likes of Cattermole and Bridcutt - they can offer some protection to a pretty slow and average defense.

I really enjoy a high pressing/high tempo kind of game but I can't seem to get that to work with Sunderland, though in saying that I can't get anything to work.

So any help and discussion would be of great help and I look forward to enjoying this game instead of crying myself to sleep!

[parkthebus]

I would start by saying you have to resign to sitting deep. Sunderland do this in really life and then play it out of defensive. I don't know if it was just me that thought this but you can really mix and match your tactics. For example you could sit deep at home as well as away even against a team of slightly worst quality. Up until last week I thought it was a very rigid system in general. So anyway, I would recommend: Control mentality, rigid fluidity (balanced if the CM'S or DM have high flair). Don't set passing instructions for the team but individually. Players will generally follow what is says on the tin if they're not in a fluid system anyway. So set up with 1 DM, 2 CM'S 2 wingers and 1 striker. Drop deeper. You'll want the central 3 to all have good composure because theyll be under a lot of pressure trying to pass their way out of trouble. Put the DM on support, 1 BWM on defend and a DLP on support. Set tackling on team instructions to press more and get stuck in. Youll want players with the best decisions to avoid fouls. So tell the DM and BWM to pass short on the player instructions and less risky if it allows, and the DLP to pass direct. Next, if using inside forwards, I would use an advanced forward with 'moves into channels' to create space and through ball opportunities(set inside forward player instructions to direct passing). With wingers who like to go down the wing I would recommend a DLF to 'come deep to get the ball' and then play 'risky' 'direct passes' to the wingers. Oh yeah, and lower tempo for the team as it will help you control the game where you dont have many forward players.

PS, I dont know if any of this will actually work lol! But i've used very similar ideas in the past and I know it suits Sunderlands squad.

[llama3]

The forum rules at the top of the read set out a few things if you are requesting help - namely some more information for people to help you with. What is currently not working, what is your system in full please. Otherwise I'll just get out the crystal ball for advice...

[AusBlackCat]

Sorry I forgot to put my current system in haha, bone head move.

I'm currently using a 4-1-2-2-1 system as it has the 2 key things I like in a formation, a player in the defensive midfield spot, and 2 wingers. Johnson is my favourite player so I'm trying to get the best out of him, and part of that is getting him the ball in areas he has the most chance to succeed. I seem to be getting destroyed by big teams, and against teams with the same kind of reputation I'm not creating anything overly significant.

I'm currently using defensive and rigid

F9 s

W a W a

CM s AP a

A d

FB s CD d CD d FB s

GK d

TI's Work ball into box, hassle opponents, pass into space, retain possession, pass out of defense, shorter passing, stay on feet.

[llama3]

Your problem is gaping - too few runs from deep (CMs, APa, FBs x 2 will provide very few), your central striker is dropping deep, but no-one is breaking into the box. Maybe get an IF(S) on the right for Johnson and get Bardsley to play as an FB(A)?

[RTHerringbone]

I'm using the same shape at the moment and have a number of similar Roles, but like llama3 says, you need more people in more areas making runs. Diversity is key.

I have an IF (A) on one side and AP (S) on the other. The IF (A) is quickly into the box, and the AP (S) also heads that way in time. As a result, I'll generally have three in the box, and that's the number I like. A CM (S) will rarely get into the box (unless boosted by PIs or PPMs), but should get into position on the edge of the area to pick up any second balls.

I'd question the use of Hassle Opponent with such a deep mentality. You have a really low defensive line, but are then encouraging players to break from that base to close players down. As a rule of thumb, Hassle should be coupled with more attacking mentalities.

You are painfully slow in tempo terms. Defensive is slow, then you pass shorter AND retain possession. So, you sit deep, play slowly, and attacking teams will just press the Hell out of you.

In summary - I would try to be a bit bolder. I think your caution is inviting pressure.

[AusBlackCat]

Your problem is gaping - too few runs from deep (CMs, APa, FBs x 2 will provide very few), your central striker is dropping deep, but no-one is breaking into the box. Maybe get an IF(S) on the right for Johnson and get Bardsley to play as an FB(A)?

I have Johnson on the left as the Winger Attack, I changed Giaccherini to IF s on the right and Bardsley FB a. Would it help to change the AP a to a box to box midfielder?

I've also added the 'push higher up' TI. Maybe I could change the shorter passing, and pass out of defense to more direct and clear ball to flanks, and hopefully that will get my boy AJ onto the ball more in better positions?

[AusBlackCat]

Do you guys think the anchor man is the right role to have in this setup? I can't seem to get the right combo with my 2 CM guys either, and my striker is really struggling

[llama3]

Maybe have an IF(A) if you have an F9(S) in the team. You probably want a more direct CM(A) in the centre to get forward.

[RTHerringbone]

Do you guys think the anchor man is the right role to have in this setup? I can't seem to get the right combo with my 2 CM guys either, and my striker is really struggling

An Anchor will be important if you have set Bardsley to Attack now.

I like the Anchor as he doesn't drop into the defensive line (like a Regista, DLP or Half Back) when your keeper has the ball.

He really is a nice, simple player who suits holding position and recycling possession.

[AusBlackCat]

Okay I've read the pairs and combinations thread for the 100th time haha, I'm gonna keep to the defensive and rigid style, my TI's are now pass into space, work into box, clear ball to flanks higher tempo

Same formation, the different roles are the right full back is now on A, I have a DLP s and a CM a, I have a IF a and a IF s. Hopefully this works better

[ZdlR]

Okay I've read the pairs and combinations thread for the 100th time haha, I'm gonna keep to the defensive and rigid style, my TI's are now pass into space, work into box, clear ball to flanks higher tempo

Same formation, the different roles are the right full back is now on A, I have a DLP s and a CM a, I have a IF a and a IF s. Hopefully this works better

I realize that Sunderland are prone to relegation in the first season, but `defensive` as a starting strategy just seems overly negative. Perhaps away from home this would keep you in the game and frustrate the opposition until you eventually launch a smash-and-grab (by increasing to the heady heights of Counter, perhaps). However, at home, all teams should be playing with more adventure unless the odds truly are stacked against them. Not saying you should be cavalier and take lots of risks - and defensive certainly can score goals - but it seems wrong to just sit back and try bore to opposition to death. You have some decent attackers and are a match for a lot of clubs at home.

[AusBlackCat]

I realize that Sunderland are prone to relegation in the first season, but `defensive` as a starting strategy just seems overly negative. Perhaps away from home this would keep you in the game and frustrate the opposition until you eventually launch a smash-and-grab (by increasing to the heady heights of Counter, perhaps). However, at home, all teams should be playing with more adventure unless the odds truly are stacked against them. Not saying you should be cavalier and take lots of risks - and defensive certainly can score goals - but it seems wrong to just sit back and try bore to opposition to death. You have some decent attackers and are a match for a lot of clubs at home.

Thanks for your input mate, after playing another 2 games I've decided defensive isn't the way to go....I barely beat West Brom at home, a goal from a set piece and created nothing else really. Then travelled to Old Trafford and wow, it was brutal to watch - they had 68% of the ball, 22 shots to my 8, and they created about a dozen chances and half chances, to my 2. I'm not sure if its my new roles that are the problem, the defensive mentality, or a mix of them both?

[mortiscausa]

I'd question the use of Hassle Opponent with such a deep mentality. You have a really low defensive line, but are then encouraging players to break from that base to close players down. As a rule of thumb, Hassle should be coupled with more attacking mentalities.

Hmm what about counter with much higher d-line, hassle and get stuck in, should it work even with low mentality ?

[RTHerringbone]

Hmm what about counter with much higher d-line, hassle and get stuck in, should it work even with low mentality ?

Pressing improves the higher your line, so that would be more effective than just being on Counter with no TIs affecting the line.

However, what is your primary aim?

Counter is largely about being deep to create the space to exploit with fast transitions, it isn't about Pressing high and trying to win the ball back.

By fundamentally changing the Mentality so much, it implies that Counter isn't what you wanted in the first place.

[AusBlackCat]

Okay over the past few hours I've tried different combinations/mentalities/TI's etc. I am really starting to believe I'm just no good at this years game. I don't expect to win every game, or dominate possession. I just want to get the most out of AJ, and my other wingers (I love wingers they are my favourite players). My striker might as well not even put his boots on for the amount of input he has. My creative midfielders are offering me donuts as well. I actually think I'm going to cry! The only goals I seem to be scoring are from set pieces, or bone head mistakes from the opposition. I'm never really constructing anything. Do you think this formation is the best to get what I want, which is high tempo, move the ball fast and get it to my wingers in the best position for them to succeed. I think the only position I'm really happy with is my anchor man, the rest is up for debate, as well as the formation!

[mortiscausa]

However, what is your primary aim?

Counter is largely about being deep to create the space to exploit with fast transitions, it isn't about Pressing high and trying to win the ball back.

By fundamentally changing the Mentality so much, it implies that Counter isn't what you wanted in the first place.

Well the idea is to win back ball as quick as possible and if possible lanuch quick passes to wide players if there is no such a chance then keep possesion and try to break with patience build up.

[llama3]

Okay over the past few hours I've tried different combinations/mentalities/TI's etc. I am really starting to believe I'm just no good at this years game. I don't expect to win every game, or dominate possession. I just want to get the most out of AJ, and my other wingers (I love wingers they are my favourite players). My striker might as well not even put his boots on for the amount of input he has. My creative midfielders are offering me donuts as well. I actually think I'm going to cry! The only goals I seem to be scoring are from set pieces, or bone head mistakes from the opposition. I'm never really constructing anything. Do you think this formation is the best to get what I want, which is high tempo, move the ball fast and get it to my wingers in the best position for them to succeed. I think the only position I'm really happy with is my anchor man, the rest is up for debate, as well as the formation!

If you want quick direct wing-play go 4-4-2. It is perfect for it. More to aim at up front, transitions quickly, solid shape defensively. Seeing as you are not trying to dominate possession you don't need the extra man in the middle. You can always sit it with 2 withdrawn CM's - i.e. play DM's and MR, ML - very good defensive shape, counter-attacks well too, and you get to keep Anchorman. Pair a DM(S)/BWM(S) alongside, depending on what is appropriate and make sure 1 of your forwards is certainly dropping deeper. Don't go overboard on instructions, keep a base of about 5 instructions central to your team, everything else can be adapted game by game. In this system your team will naturally use the flanks anyway, so probably no need to instruct this.

Something like this may work:

GK - GK(D)

DR - FB(A)

DC - CD(D)

DC - CD(D)

DL - FB(S)

DM - A(D)

DM - DM(S)

MR - W/DW/WM(S)

ML - W(A)

ST - F9/DLF/CF/TM(S)

ST - AF/P/CF(A)

This system is built to:

• Sit Deep
  
• Hold Shape
  
• Counter Attack
  
• Use the flanks

[RTHerringbone]

Well the idea is to win back ball as quick as possible and if possible lanuch quick passes to wide players if there is no such a chance then keep possesion and try to break with patience build up.

I'd consider starting your own thread, so as not to detract from AusBlackCat's one.

[RTHerringbone]

If you want quick direct wing-play go 4-4-2. It is perfect for it. More to aim at up front, transitions quickly, solid shape defensively. Seeing as you are not trying to dominate possession you don't need the extra man in the middle.

Or even a 4-1-4-1. That extra defensive solidity with a DM could allow you to play off the front man, send runners from wide (full back and ML/R) and centrally.

[AusBlackCat]

Alright so I've tried both the 4-4-2 and the 4-1-4-1. Both work decently at home getting some good results, I don't see much of the ball but I create a few chances per game at home, restricting most of there shots to outside of the box, but they still get too many shots for my liking.

Away from home is a big issue. I am leaking goals and not creating much at all, so many shots against as well.

TI's: More direct passing, pass into space, work into box, clear ball to flanks

TI's: More direct passing, pass into space, work into box, clear ball to flanks, drop deeper, exploit the flanks

I have both set to counter and balanced.

[ZdlR]

Alright so I've tried both the 4-4-2 and the 4-1-4-1. Both work decently at home getting some good results, I don't see much of the ball but I create a few chances per game at home, restricting most of there shots to outside of the box, but they still get too many shots for my liking.

Away from home is a big issue. I am leaking goals and not creating much at all, so many shots against as well.

TI's: More direct passing, pass into space, work into box, clear ball to flanks

TI's: More direct passing, pass into space, work into box, clear ball to flanks, drop deeper, exploit the flanks

I have both set to counter and balanced.

If your home form is ok but you can't seem to get much away from home, then you could throw caution to the wind in those games and go more attacking. It still doesn't have to be gung-ho, Control would probably suffice, but if you can't grind a result out away then perhaps focus on causing the opposition problems. Sure, it could result in pretty bad losses, but if you take the pressure off your players in these games and switch to something more conservative if you are being dominated, then it might not be so bad. Every so often, you'll play a similar team away and putting them under early pressure and onto the back foot will be very effective. Maybe play a 41221 with an anchor man to prevent any obvious counter-attacks?

[AusBlackCat]

Okay so finally I've decided to stick with a 4-4-2 with 2 deep midfielders.

I've got it set to counter and rigid

TI's are pass into space, work ball into box, high tempo, more direct passing.

I've got my 2 strikers set to F9 s and CF a.

Winger a WM s

Anchor man d BWM s

FB s Cd d CD d FB a

I'm still finding I'm conceding too many shots against similar skilled and better teams, and not creating enough. I'm going to stick with this tactic though and try make it work, I think it has potential I just need to keep analysing it. Which I would love some help with if anyone is willing?

I just played Tottenham away from home which I was dreading. I left my team the same and we performed ok in the first half, it was 1-0 to Tottenham at the break.

I noticed a few things - I noticed they weren't really creating anything clear cut yet took the lead - I was happy with that, 90% of there shots were taken outside of the box and I was happy with that too. I was concerned with my lack of creativity and movement going forward. I had a brief look at the heat maps and noticed a lot of space between there full backs and wingers (which they were playing as inside forwards.

I made a few changes at the break, I told my team to clear the ball to the flanks and exploit the flanks. I walked away with a 3-1 victory and I created 4 clear cut chances to there 0. My team played brilliantly in the second half. All 3 of my goals were from ruthless quick counter attacking that exploited the space between the full backs and inside forwards.

I've noticed a trend, when I am the underdog, especially away from home I seem to win and create a lot more than the other team. When I'm evenly matched or favourites I tend to struggle to create anything and get beaten most of the time.

[llama3]

Astute observation about expectations and the way yourself your opponent set up to face you. Very impressed at your development.

[AusBlackCat]

Astute observation about expectations and the way yourself your opponent set up to face you. Very impressed at your development.

Thank you, your advice, your different ways of thinking and ways of explaining things have been a huge help and I greatly appreciate it. I am still developing this tactic though as I don't believe it's reached its full potential.

I don't seem to be getting the best out of my wingers, especially my right sided winger. Do you have any ideas as to why? Do you think they are too isolated and are running into a dead end, have no passing options, or the wrong set up?