Help with creating a Dutch/Ajax style 433

[Southern Buddie]

I'd like to start by saying that I am by no means new to football manager. I had been playing it since CM93. However there has been a break for me and I am not particularly useful with the TC.

I know there are a lot of knowledgable tacticians on this forum and I'm asking them for their help. I want to create a 433 system that plays reminiscent of Dutch/Ajax teams.

The key ideas of the teams play are as below:-

high pressure when the opposition is in possession.

Everyone pressures the ball including the centre forward. If a winger goes wide to harass, the centre forward will move a little deeper and wider to provide some cover and a passing option if the winger wins the ball.

high pressing from the back line. Offside trap is usually used.

be careful that the centrebacks don't press up while the fullbacks lag back. This creates a space/"an inverted U" in which the opposition can play the ball onside behind the defense.

Zonal system - rigid positioning in attack and defense

Players will not cut across each other. A player who moves a few metres to create a passing opportunity will be praised. A player who chases a ball 40 metres will be kicked off the team.

This does mean the centre forward needs to participate in the build of phase of the attacking third of the field (read: plays with back to goal). Because of the formation rigidity, the physical exertion of players is directly linked to the position played. Wingers need the most stamina.

Good ball circulation - Short & Long passes with as much direct play as possible

There is not a lot of running around. Instead "players should be playing football" , ie passing and positioning.

It is important that there are many passing options in attack. i.e. There should be passing triangles. Two of the forwards(wingers) stay wide to make full use of the field. The Centre forward will play with his back to goal in the build up of the attack to enable another passing option.

stretching the field play - attacking down both flanks or through the middle

Part of the philosophy is that in attack there is full use of the field. There is no preference which flank the ball goes down. Wingers tend to stay out wide and make penetrating runs and then cross the ball in. The idea behind this is to spread the opposition's defense.

In defense the high pressure and pressing contracts the field of play making it diffcult for the opposition to circulate the ball.

Now, I don't have a full grasp on how to go about doing this, so everyone's help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Southern Buddie

[RocheBag]

Seems like you have a good idea of how you want to play, two questions for this system you have in your head.

1. What do the three central midfielders do? Are they bombing forward to overlap the striker? Sitting deep and recycling possession?

2. What about the fullbacks? Are the getting forward with the wingers or just sitting back defensively?

[Southern Buddie]

1. The midfield 3 I see as a passer, a destroyer and a creator. In whatever form works best on this version of the game.

2. The full backs have to contribute in both defence and attack. Maybe one would be more attacking than the other, but again I'm not totally sure on this either. I have read on this forum that it is best to have one attack duty in defence, so this is where it would be used.

[RocheBag]

Ok, this is how I'd set that up:

A few notes:

Rigid philosophy because you want the players sticking to their individual roles and not all over the pitch (this could even be very rigid)

Attacking strategy because you want aggressive direct, wide play, a high defensive line, lots of pressing, and offside trap, attacking gives you all of those

Default passing because you want the players to pick their own passes instead of being foreced one way or the other

Default creative freedom because you don't want them doing whatever they want, but they still need to be able to play (this could be more disiplined if you prefer)

Default closing down because even though you want lots of pressing, the attacking strategy takes care of this already, so going to press more isn't neccesary

Roaming on stick to position because of your comment about players not crossing over each other

The DLF - S will play with his back to goal and hold up the ball for others

The Wingers will stay wide as opposed to the other choices who drift inside (support on the right just to compensate for the fullback on this side being attacking)

The BWM is your destroyer, the AP your creator, and the DLP your passer in midfield

[Southern Buddie]

That's brilliant, thanks for the help. Ill try using this as a starting point (at least).

Ill try to keep this thread updated about problems and successes I have along the way.

How I adapt to play certain teams and systems will be a big hurdle for me, but hopefully with the help of the forum I can learn and progress.

[Koennn]

I like the fact that you put the DLP on the DM position. I set up this tactic with the same Team Instructions as you did, but on the midfield I have a BWM on the DM position, AP on MCL and a Box-to-Box player on the right side. That's how Ajax plays at the moment. I'm going to try the midfield roles you proposed as that sounds very interesting!

[Southern Buddie]

Would it be sensible to use defensive wingers, as the team closes down from the front? Or would they neglect some of their attacking duties? Would that change have a big effect or is the closing down for those players high enough already due to the attacking strategy?

[Steve Odom]

Southern Buddie,

It sounds to me you have a great understanding of what you want to do. That's a plus, because you'll have somthing to work with. Why don't you look at just the basic settings that define your team first, then look at the other things. To create a Dutch style at your club, you must first design uour team's shape. The roles and the implicationd in mentality and forward runs are the first things to look in to. Then you can look at the general team style (in this case,433, high pressure, direct play; loads of movement, fluid style (or a combination of style and roles that reflect this),...

Once you're familiar with the new match engine and tactics creator, you will welcome it as much as I did, I'm sure..

Good luck.

[RocheBag]

Would it be sensible to use defensive wingers, as the team closes down from the front? Or would they neglect some of their attacking duties? Would that change have a big effect or is the closing down for those players high enough already due to the attacking strategy?

Defensive wingers are still good in attack in my experience, but the attacking mentality definitely takes care of the closing down.

Have you played much with the tactic? Would love to hear how it's going so far

[furiousuk]

Yeah, hows it going? Rochebag's setup looks like it'll produce what you're after so I wonder how you're finding it. It's hard crafting a tight vision into FM (partly because you don't get real fine control over players—but then, do real managers either?) so it's always interesting to try.

Attacking starting strategy always worries me. I'd consider counter to keep your patience and up passing length slightly but as you want to press heavily as well you're probably best starting with 'push higher' shout to 'shorten' the pitch a little, you might also want to shout 'play wider' at the same time to keep you wide but you'll have to watch carefully if the striker gets isolated as with high width and wingers you'd need your midfield to provide support and with rigid stick to position maybe they wouldn't move enough to get in supporting positions. Using shouts as part of your base setup is also more complicated and you might not want to go that far just yet.

The other thing to consider of course is players. Can your players do this style of play? In particular, if you want the striker to play with back to goal then you need the right player in there. Tactics shape what you want your players to do but if you think of them more as 'suggestions' rather than 'instructions' then you see why a lot of people get frustrated with FM tactics—it’s a marriage between tactical and players (including motivation etc etc) that define your play-style.

[tomtuck01]

With Ajax I did the following;

GK - Sweeper Keeper (Support)

RB - Fullback (Support)

LB - Fullback (Attack)

CB - Central Defender (Stopper)

CB - Central Defencer (Cover)

DM - Defensive Midfielder (Defend)

CM - Deep Lying Playmaker (Support)

CM - Advanced Playmaker (Attack)

AMR - Inside Forward (Attack)

AML - Inside Forward (Attack)

ST - Deep Lying Forward (Support)

Style - Rigid

Strategy - Counter

Passing - Shorter

Creative Freedom - More Expressive

Pressing - Press More

Tackling - Default

Marking - Zonal

Crossing - Drill

Roaming - More Roaming

The only tick box used in team settings was to set my DLP as my main playmaker, and the only tick boxes used in the player settings was to lower everyones Long Shots to rarely, and to change the goalkeepers to distribution to Defender Collect.

Aside from that, the only thing I would change were the defenders roles. For instance, if I had a better RB for attacking than the LB, I would switch there roles and those of the CB's, so that the covering CB was always on the side of the attackig FB. Whether that made a difference or not, it was just a habit I got into.

[Southern Buddie]

I haven't had the chance to play yet. I firstly want a clear idea in my head of how the team should play, how this can be replicated in FM (or as close as possible), the potential pitfalls and any hints or tips about adjusting the system to face different kinds of opposition.

That said, I will be starting a save this weekend and will be using RocheBag's suggestion as a base to start with, maybe implementing furiousuk's advice.

The other parts of the game ie. player selection, squad management, team talks, media, transfers, training - I feel I have a tight grip on, so this thread will only be dedicated to the tactical system itself.

Thanks for all the advice so far. Keep it coming!

I will keep the thread updated on a regular basis.

[Southern Buddie]

With Ajax I did the following;

GK - Sweeper Keeper (Support)

RB - Fullback (Support)

LB - Fullback (Attack)

CB - Central Defender (Stopper)

CB - Central Defencer (Cover)

DM - Defensive Midfielder (Defend)

CM - Deep Lying Playmaker (Support)

CM - Advanced Playmaker (Attack)

AMR - Inside Forward (Attack)

AML - Inside Forward (Attack)

ST - Deep Lying Forward (Support)

Style - Rigid

Strategy - Counter

Passing - Shorter

Creative Freedom - More Expressive

Pressing - Press More

Tackling - Default

Marking - Zonal

Crossing - Drill

Roaming - More Roaming

The only tick box used in team settings was to set my DLP as my main playmaker, and the only tick boxes used in the player settings was to lower everyones Long Shots to rarely, and to change the goalkeepers to distribution to Defender Collect.

Aside from that, the only thing I would change were the defenders roles. For instance, if I had a better RB for attacking than the LB, I would switch there roles and those of the CB's, so that the covering CB was always on the side of the attackig FB. Whether that made a difference or not, it was just a habit I got into.

Did you use any shouts or change anything according to opponent?

[Southern Buddie]

I have been trying the set up that RocheBag suggested and although it does mimic the style I suggested, it does not seem as though it can be successful on FM. I think the system may be too rigid. The centre forward gets isolated, teams run straight through us as we play so wide and we don't seem to close down from the front effectively enough.

[furiousuk]

Whats your closing down setting? Also worth having a look at the closing down of each player (you can do this is the tactics screen to see all of the closing down instructions) just to make sure it is high enough.

The other thing is that if you are playing wide then there is separation between your players and you are making the pitch bigger so closing down is always more difficult and more tiring too.

I'm a little surprised the CF gets isolated as the roles are good, maybe it's to do with an attacking strategy and getting the ball forward too quickly? This should be easy enough to spot, just watch how quickly the ball moves forward and see if you think there is enough time for players to move in support.

[Southern Buddie]

I've started trying to implement some of the changes you mentioned earlier ie, counter attacking strategy. I've tinkered with a few shouts and I can see how they change things on the pitch, but teams are still seeming to walk through me at times and they also seem to be marking my wingers and striker out of the game regularly. All 3 first choice for the positions have good anticipation and off the ball skills for the level I'm playing at as well as very decent pace for the wingers. My midfield do a job, but it's the front 3 that are having issues.

I feel like I have to start a fresh with as this season has started to get a bit muddled tactically (my own fault). I've got a feeling that it will be hard to replicate this particular style of play and still get results on FM. I suppose teams in real life don't play this way (usually having wide men that act as forwards coming inside), so maybe it's realistic.