Kharza_FM
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Posts posted by Kharza_FM
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Bump.. Read this.. all of it.. don't focus on the tactic.. focus on what the changes will DO on the pitch. The trade off concept is simply fabulous and is the key to unlocking and ENJOYING making tactics. The aha moment for me was learning how to control the transition moment of winning the ball ("When Possession Has Been Won" instruction):
Counter? - Defensive doesn't press you RIGHT when they lose the ball.. they drop off. If they drop off good time to counter (if your system is setup to leverage a transition.. i.e. attacking roles)
Hold Shape? - If you get immediately COUNTER-PRESSED by the AI.. then it's a really good idea to use Hold Shape because it will look to play the ball backwards and maintain possession.. as a coach one of my favority sayings is "Backwards to go FORWARDS".
NONE? - Let the players use their decisions and attributes to make the decision or don't need to respond to one of the above items.
@herne79 Cheers mate this is some really good stuff!
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So be careful.. tempo is how fast you move the ball, i.e. make a decision. It doesn't mean you play more direct passes and depending on the risk level AND decisions attribute (yep with you here big time) it will be where they go with the ball. Passing instructions both at a TI and PI level control the directness of passes. Lots of Pass it shorter instructions for most of the players, especially those in the back (all 4 in the back have pass it shorter and the A (D) role does take less risks so a solid 5 keeping the ball and circulating it. Do they go "direct" to a wing if they are open.. of course but there is nothing wrong with that. They still move the ball in the middle of the pitch to move the defense with short intricate passes and then free up a wing and create a 2v1. The thing I see the most that I hadn't seen before with this setup is the up back and through patterns emerge. Remember the key to finding the "right" tempo is moving the ball right before you get closed down by a defender.. mentality is all about risk not about direct or not. Sure at times this system can engage the engine counter attack mechanism (this is different than the instruction counter btw) and go to goal quickly.. but it isn't like you don't see Pep's teams do that. Most of the time though if it isn't on they keep the ball and cycle it and look to move it to the DLP (S) or the MEZ (A) who are responsible for taking more risks (think DeBruyne, Silva, Xavi, Iniesta).
The thing I noticed about this engine is that when you get counter pressed the BEST way to respond is to have your instructions set to hold shape and the pass goes backwards to then go forwards. What do you mean about going to the striker to quickly? The point of using an F9 is to have them join the build up and if they drop into a pocket of space you play it in to their feet and they bounce it back to a supporting midfielder and they play through or cycle. This happens with Aguero all the time at City and we saw it with Messi at Barca. I will concede that the wide players are probably a bit more direct but if you look at Pep's teams he has always put the dribblers out there.. I like a little more Brazilian dribbling flair especially in the final third. Dribblers break teams down in FM and real life. Still messing around with the role for the AML.. my gut is telling me it should be a Winger and more like Pep's evolution @ Bayern.
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3 hours ago, crusadertsar said:
@Kharza_FM With all due respect, I like the way my midfield works more. There is a reason why I didn't use two static roles like DLP and Anchorman, because with Roaming Playmaker and DM(S) i have more dynamic movement and fluidity. I am looking to recreate a Total Football type system remember. Also I'm not quite sure how early crosses, higher tempo and attacking mentality work together to create possession. Could you explain that one? But it could be a nice tactic, don't get me wrong. Just not exactly what I'm looking for.
Did you try it? Based on exactly how you described you want Busquets to play the A (D) role fits it better. Also there is the added benefit of him sitting deeper for recycling possession and preventing balls into strikers so defensively it's more solid too. I mean you recommended Plays Simple Passess and Runs with Ball Rarely PPMs.. I know what you are trying to create I've been working on trying to create variations of Pep since FM 2016. This year is the closest I've ever gotten. And remember it's possession with a PURPOSE. The Hit Early Crosses is in there as a default starting spot because I want the ball swung in early before teams have had a chance to reorganize. I alter this, WBIB, and Pass Into Space depending on what I see in the game.. this is just the starting point. I've used this at top teams, middle Prem teams, and now a 3rd league team in Portugal and they all produce the same attractive football with a PURPOSE. The Be More Expressive TI gives you the fluidity you want (look at the mentality btw.. FLUID). Just trying to add to the conversation.. to each their own.
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Long time Pep follower and current coach.. I think this is the first FM version I've come this close to being able to recreate Pep tactics. Although this feels like a cross between Pep and Klopp it creates some really attractive football. Kudos for getting me down the right road. Check out the midfield as I think it works a little better than yours.
PF (S) changes to a F9 (S) depending on player in the role.
Close Down More and Mark Tighter on IW-A, IW-S, MEZ-A, and DLP-S
If the team we are playing against plays with an attacking RB we Man Mark the IW-A on it (so Mark Specific Player PI)
F9-S - Close Down More
PF (S) - None
MEZ-A - More Direct Passes
DLP-S - Dribble Less
IWB-S - Pass it Shorter
CD-D - Pass it Shorter, Stay Wider
CWB-S - Pass it Shorter, Shoot Less Often
Adjust things based on what the game gives me but that is the starting point. Really enjoying FM 20 and have had success with the above in the Prem AND 3 division Portugal side Lusitania Lourosa
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5 minutes ago, Mitja said:
you meen movement? in FM players look like they have default attacking positions which they hardly leave.
basic football stuff, at least one player making run towards ball carrier, another player making run into space which has opened because of the first movement.
Blaspemy.. those sound like principles of play.. kind of like Pressure/Cover..
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1 hour ago, el tren said:
Yep, i used 'Get Forward' for both wingers. I also considered abusing the 'Hug Line' Trait, but haven't tried yet. It's a bit cheesy but i can guess one gets desperate ...
Yep I'm abusing it.. I'm in the can this ME even get close to what I want to do and then I'll build my team for real to do it the right way.
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2 hours ago, el tren said:
Tried the ML/R on Support and it kinda helped quite a bit regarding width in the final third:
Thats a good width from the wingers, even though i would like them to be a bit more ahead (esp. Sane) and on line with my striker.
Setting the winger to ML/R support had some drawbacks in other phases though, b/c the ML/R position themselves a lot lower when my team is not in position. Once i gain possession and get into transition, they are often so far behind that my team can't use them for quick counters. For example (Sane behind the ball going to Gündogan):
Or another example here (Silva making a forward run with ball, being far higher than Sane):
Where my midfielder had to use my Striker that moved out of the box to the wings:
He then ran up the touchline and put a cross into the empty box. Doesn't really help at all ...
Another drawback of the low positioning is the pressing of the wingers, b/c i want them to press the opponents fullbacks, which they are now having a hard time to to due to their lower positioning. I also saw the wingers stand behind the opposing AML/R when the opponent was in possession in my half, so that both my wingbacks and my wingers were virtually marking the enemy AML/R, which is just a waste.
So overall setting ML/R support wingers helps indeed with the width but creates two new problems. In the end i will have to decide what is the lesser evil. Maybe on a match by match basis. But generally i would prefer to be able to somehow set the width of my wingers, i.e. be able to let them use the full width of the pitch even in the final third.
Did you use the Gets Further Forward PI? I'll be honest.. what I've been doing is playing with the editor on so I can totally tweak player PPMs and provide full tactical familiarity to try stuff out until I get what I'm looking for. I saw the same issue you did and I believe the Gets Further Forward PI and PPM made it much better during build up.
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#7 received the ball from the right side from #6.. here is the move before #7 receives it in the middle
Extremely Wide TI and I know I was messing around with the Hugs Line PPM trying to get maximum width as well. Both ML and MR are W-S with Get Forward
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22 minutes ago, el tren said:
Pretty much default: Sane as Winger - Attack and B. Silva as Inverted Winger with just 'Stay Wide'. Resulting in pretty much the same positional movements for both. I even tried 'Roam from Positions' on both in 2nd half, but didn't make a noticeable difference. And otherwise same tactics as above, i.e. mostly 'Positive' mentality.
#11 is Winger on Support with Gets Forward PI he doesn't start to make a run into the box until Pulisic is about to cross.. otherwise he stays that wide even when we are camping in the final third.
Even here isn't bad.. ball central at top of the box look at the positioning of #10 and #11
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1 hour ago, Gegenklaus said:
Have you tried putting them in MR/ML position? I found a IW on support with stay wider PI actually stays wide in the final third most of the time.
Yeah I had to ditch AML/AMR and do this as well. It will keep the width in the final third. I did a test to figure this out and broke out the editor and even added hugs line PPMs and still could never get the AML/AMR wide in the final third. If you want that from your winger they have to be in the ML/MR slots.
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if you are using wingers you need them in the ML/MR slots because in the AML/AMR they don't get wide enough in the final third.
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Trequartista
in Tactics, Training & Strategies Discussion
Posted
Have a very similar team make up and deliberately. Key is pass and move... so let's unpack that first:
Support roles with one attacking role in the front 5 (I like to end up with a fluid shape so my fullbacks are also on support.. more on that at the end). Use Get Forward PI or PPMs to get more runners forward... personally I like a BBM-S with Get Forward PI to be my midfield "attacker". So something like this:
CF-S
IW-S T-A
AP-S BBM-S
Now make sure you set your IF-S and AP-S PIs to "Roam From Position". I also set the BBM-S to "Get Further Forward".
So the press you need to add a higher line of engagement and I set the CF-S, IW-S, AP-S, BBM-S to "Close Down More" as well. I also personally use the More Urgent TI but you can get away without it. If you use it with a player that has good Aggression and Work Rate in the T-A role they will press as well. I generally start with "Positive" mentality but adjust the mentality and tempo depending on what I see. I like a standard passing width but will sometimes make it shorter (won't go much shorter though) and will adjust the tempo up and down. The best rule of thumb I've found for the right tempo is to watch the game and have your players pass RIGHT before they are closed down.. this is the ideal tempo. So you keep tweaking tempo until that situation. Remember though.. mentality has risk, tempo, AND passing distance implications so make sure you are aware of all 3 when you make a change.
So you should look to have runners at all levels has been my rule of thumb and beyond just Get Forward Instructions and Attack roles one thing I've found that I like a ton is to use the "Overlap Right", "Overlap Left" TI. It increases the individual mentality of your fullback. So a FB-S that would normally have a Mentality of Positive turns into an Attacking mentality.. plus has the T-A hold the ball and let the fullback overlap.. it's good because I have my T-A "Sit Narrow" as well see below:
Without TI "Overlap Right"
With TI "Overlap Right"
This was my last game I just played