WhyMe
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Posts posted by WhyMe
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Lovely write up @crusadertsar, I've always loved Brazilian football and I have to admit I enjoy an asymmetric formation too and this one looks a lot of fun. I would be really interested to know how you would adapt the system to counter specific styles. For example Klopp's Liverpool? They tend to be my bogey team in FM20 so it would be very interesting to see :-)
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For a possession based system with a central playmaker could something like the following work?
F9
W-a SS-a AP-s
RPM-s CM-d
IWB-d CD-d CD-d CWB-s
The idea is that the SS is your primary goal scorer with the W-a and F9 chipping in as well.
The CM-d and IWB-d provide possession recycling options and defensive cover. While the RPM and AP create key passes and through balls from different angles and the CWB-s overlaps the AP for a crossing option (also provided by the W-a on the other flank).
Obviously you would need team instructions as well to create the passing system you want and probably should give the RPM and AP more direct passing to allow them greater freedom to create. But in principle would be a decent basis for a balanced system in your view @Experienced Defender? I know 2 playmakers is frowned upon, but it seems reasonably solid though I am by no means an expert.
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As would gets into opposition penalty area
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Have they been getting regular match experience at a decent level? Once players get to a certain level they won't progress with only under 23s football, even championship isn't enough eventually.
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I've had that before, but they did eventually become so. I think it may just be a display error.
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@Experienced Defender thank you again for the advice. Congratulations on your promotion to moderator btw mate, very well deserved! You are always polite and helpful even when the tactic is a disaster!
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33 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:
Okay, I can now basically imagine what it looks like, and it makes sense.
Before I tell you which small tweaks could help, it's important for you to know that:
- besides having roles and duties set up properly - which you have - you also need the right type of players so that these overloads would be executed (as) effectively (as possible). Those keeping the ball before the switch of play need not only good technical skills (passing and first touch in the first place), but also good mentals (such as off the ball, composure, decisions, anticipation, teamwork) and preferably also some good/decent balance. On the other hand, those that should take advantage from the switch on the opposite flank - led by the AMR winger - also need good off the ball and anticipation as well as (some) speed (which the winger obviously have, unlike the CM on attack)
- how often and how successful the overload(s) will be does not solely depend on your players and tactic, but also the opposition and their manner of defending
- while overloads can be a useful tactical tool for breaking down stubborn defenses, you should not be obsessed with creating an overload just for the sake of it. I personally do not incorporate overloads into my primary tactics (although such situations do happen occasionally even without my intention). Instead, I use them as an in-match strategy when I feel the need
It would probably help, but let's first see what could be done before you get such CM.
Here are some ideas you might consider, not necessarily applying all of them:
- change the AMR winger's duty to support instead of attack. This may sound counter-intuitive, but that can help reduce the distance between the winger and CM caused by the big difference in speed. A player does not necessarily need to be played on attack duty in order to be able to take advantage of a switch of play. Given his great speed, a slightly deeper starting position may even help the winger be potentially more dangerous by drawing his "marker" out of position, besides allowing the (slow) attacking CM to sort of catch up with him. After all, playing the winger on support duty does not prevent the overload/switch of play from being executed (or at least attempted) when an opportunity occurs. A similar approach works nicely for me with Man Utd, when I play (left-footed) Mata as AP on support in AMR, (right-footed and extremely fast) Marital as IF on support in AML and Pogba (or Fred) as a mezzala on attack in MCL. Last but not least, the support duty would likely discourage the winger from taking the speculative shots from ridiculous angles which you complained about (or at least reduce them somewhat)
- in case you decide to go with the right winger on support duty, then the lone striker should be on attack duty, so as to offer an early passing/crossing option in the box (I personally would prefer DLF on attack, but you said you didn't like how the role behaved, so I'm not going to insist)
- remove the
Work ball into boxfrom your team instructions, as this instruction can overcomplicate things and potentially reduce the number of the switch-of-play attempts. Alternatively, you can retain the WBiB, but add the Be more expressive to sort of offset the (complicating) effects of the WBiB (the WBiB/BME also works nicely for me at Utd most of the time)- although I am generally opposed to having 2 PMs close to each other, in this particular case a DLP (on support) instead of the carrilero in MCL may not be a bad idea. Not necessary though, so just keep it in mind as a possible option
I would advise you to remove the
more direct passingfor the AP. You don't need to additionally encourage him to attempt switches of play by increasing the length of his passes, because the nature of the role already does that (via the "take more risk" hard-coded PI). If your AP has the necessary attributes, he will switch the play whenever that's the most logical option anyway (shorter passing does not prevent a player, especially a PM from doing that).Yes, that is a good idea
Great. The more players you have who are able (and know when to) attempt the switch, the better
Thank you for the ideas mate. I think you might be right about the WBIB instruction, I probably don't really need it and it might be what is preventing my winger from making that risky cross/pass. I am a bit reluctant to drop my winger to support in plan A as he is currently my second top goal scorer (7 goals in 10 games (+4 sub), but it is a good option if plan A isn't working.
Speaking of plan B, if I drop my winger to support in plan B and flip my AP to an attack duty as in my original post, would it still be your suggestion to make my striker a DLF-a in a counter attacking system or would you stick to a PF-a as in my original idea.
Instructions wise I was leaning in the direction of the following for plan B (balanced):
- Possession: Pass into space higher tempo
- In transition: Throw it long, Distribute to left back (probably need to change this as it just got my left back marked on goal kicks lol), Counter and distribute quickly
- Out of possession: Lower line of engagement and get stuck in (added more urgent pressing in the second game as I was a bit too passive and had gone a goal down to a free kick)
I tested these in a couple of games with the formation and roles/duties in my original post for plan B. Other than the distribution issue is there anything that leaps out at you as needing adding/removing? It is a bit trickier to tell if this sort of tactic is working with the current match engine as it is primarily trying to free the central striker for a good chance on goal, easy to do at the moment, but chances are he will miss it :-).
I won both my test games, the first after missing a hat full of glorious chances with a late free kick (1-0) and the second 3-1 with a goal each for my front 3 and my CM-a missed a sitter! Therefore, it can't be too daft, which makes a nice change for my tactics (unless I just got lucky). However, possession numbers were VERY low (35%), not hugely unexpected for counter type system, but the risk is I have gone too far?
Again I appreciate your thoughts.
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2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:
In terms of what you want to achieve, the above setup of roles and duties does make sense in general. Can it be further improved? Most probably yes, just like anything btw. But let's leave that part for later. Now, I would first like to ask you about this:
If I understood you correctly, the switch of play from the left to the right does work, the only problem is when the AMR winger receives the ball, he does not have passing or crossing options inside (or at the edge of) the box. Right? Also, where is the AMR usually located when the switch of play takes place?
If that's the case, my next questions is: where are the CM on attack and your striker usually at that point? Too far away from the winger, or relatively close but marked/covered by opponents?
When I play my forward as one of the PF or TQ options it generally works ok. The switch of play doesn't happen as often as I would like but I figure that will improve once I have an AP with the PPM likes to switch ball to the other flank (though to be fair sometimes the CAR does it instead). When it does happen the winger is usually isolated one on one with his fullback or if really lucky the ball is played between the fullback and Centre back. However, the CM-a lacks pace so isn't always up with play as the winger has blistering pace, so that might be having a fairly significant effect. The striker when played with one of my usual roles is usually either up with the winger or arriving just behind the winger but close enough. Nonetheless, both of your scenarios can happen a bit too often, as while not slow, the striker is a still 4 or 5 points slower than the winger and is occasionally alone in the box due to the slow CM. Despite this the most common cause of the attack failing is the winger taking a shot from a ridiculous angle rather than attempting the cross/pass to either the forward or the CM. Perhaps the key is getting a CM with more pace for the role so there is more support in the box. Beyond that is there anything tactical you can suggest that might help to encourage the switch?
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10 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:
Which mentality?
Duh sorry forgot, positive mentality for plan A. Plan B is speculative at this point, never tried it so hadn't really decided, could stay positive but could also shift to balanced.
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Hi I am trying to get a short passing (but not possession obsessed) 4-3-3 wide going. What I am trying to achieve is to build up the play through a wide AP at AML and switch the play to my overloaded right flank or if that isn't on play in the attacking left back. Anyway on the roles etc..
PF-s
AP-s W-a
CAR-s CM-a
DM-d
FB-a CD-d BPD-d IWB-s
SK-s
Variations I also use:
- I have occasionally switched the DM to anchor man and the right full back to a defend duty when protecting a lead.
- I am really not sure the best role for my striker and I have utilised him as PF-a and TQ occasionally. I have also tried both DLF-s/a, however, I found this didn't really work, perhaps he got in the AP's way or was just too deep so the winger didn't have as many options when he was freed.
- Occasionally tried the CM-a as Mez-a when facing 2DM opposition
- Almost forgot, I have also switch the CAR to a standard CM-s with stay wider and hold position occasionally
Instructions:
- Possession: Shorter passing, Play out of defence, WBIB, Focus play down the left (as per the plan)
- In transition: Take short Kicks, Distribute the CBs, Counter-Press (I turn this off against strong opposition if I don't feel it is working)
- Out of possession: Higher defensive line, Higher LOE, More urgent pressing, prevent short distribution
Player instructions:
- AP-s - sit narrower, roam, more direct passes (to allow him to complete the switch of play)
- I have tried roaming and moving into channels on the CM-a but not often enough to know how much effect it has
Defensively I have been rock solid and going forward isn't terrible but could be better so I would appreciate it if anyone can give some advice on how to better execute my plan (one thing I do know is that I need to train my AP to have likes to switch to other flank).
Lastly, I would be interested in some suggestions for an alternative way to attack when the above plan A isn't working, which bears in mind the type of players I have, in other words ideal for plan a. For example, I was thinking I might try something like this (perhaps set up with more counter attacking instructions):
PF-a
AP-a W-s
CAR-s CM-a
DM-d
WB-s CD-d BPD-d IWB-s
SK-s
I welcome advice for either plan A or B
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Put them on endurance individual training. It worked for me for me, I got a youngster with 8 work rate up to 12 in a relatively short space of time, granted he was also training as a wide midfielder (which also trains work rate) but it should still help.
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On a similar note, has anyone used one on support duty?
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Just now, Seb Wassell said:
The backroom advice is new, the limit is not. How are you finding it after 19.1?
One or two other players have progressed in their position training but the aforementioned DMC hasn't changed at all. As a side note my coaches even tell me that he "could be successfully retrained as a central midfielder".
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2 minutes ago, Seb Wassell said:
There are no new restrictions on retraining player positions.
I have never received a message before saying I can't train a players position past competent in a position before? If that is the case why is my versatile DMC not training at MC?
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Generally really enjoying the game, the tactical settings are far more intuitive than previous versions and training is a vast improvement generally. The only thing I don't like is the new restrictions on retraining a players position. I get this for older players to an extent but if I have an 18 year old player who is a natural DMC and my coaches tell me he is versatile then surely I should be able to train him to at least accomplished if not natural at MC, it is not like it is a massive change. However, I am told he won't improve past competent no matter how much I play him at MC (I have played him at MC for a season and a half and never played him at DMC). Young players change positions a lot in their early development and often this switch is permanent. For example, Bellerin at Arsenal switched from winger to right back and in the FM database he is now considered a natural at right back. This should be possible for us as well but I have a natural striker who I got through the academy at 15 and I tried to change him into an AMC and unfortunately he can only reach accomplished. I just don't feel this is realistic for young players and very much limits developing young players if their attributes don't suit their original position.
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I generally quite like the interaction though I do agree that it can get a bit much when you get asked the same question constantly game after game. However, the thing I would most like to see improved is the AI behind the questions being asked. Why on earth would a journalist ask a manager who's team has won the league 5 years straight if he things he has a good chance of qualifying for Europe this year? Surely he would ask him if he thinks he has a good chance at retaining the title instead. Similarly, but even more ridiculously, asking a manager who has already won the league title if he thinks he can win it this year or like someone mentioned before asking if you think you can avoid relegation when you are mid-table 19 points clear with 5 games to go. I guess really I am just agreeing with what has already been said but it is the logic behind the questions that really needs tweaking for me.
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I'm generally enjoying the current match engine and FM18 in particular since the new patch. I haven't tried the three striker systems which from reports seem OTT at the moment so that probably helps. I am currently playing an adaptable 3-3-2-2 WB DM system which I can make possession or more direct depending on team instructions and the opposition, which is something I am really enjoying. The only minor bug bear I have is that when my wing backs contribute in attack which mine are set up to do so and say they have a good game and either get a good number of assists or key passes/chances created I can't praise them for doing so after the game which is quite annoying because that is usually their main contribution. Not a huge issue I know but it does seem silly when I can't praise my wing back for his 8 key passes and 1 chance created like in the last game I played.
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I can't see them on your teaandbusquets site either btw.
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Really interesting article, I too have never been fond of the 4-2-3-1 but I did give a go last year for one season. Your analysis of the strengths and weaknesses of the system is a good read. My only problem is that the pictures don't load for me in either firefox or IE. Anyone else having that problem?
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Have to agree it is a really interesting read. My only real problem is that while it fleshed out some details on the various tactical strategies on a theoretical level, there is relatively limited information about how to actually implement them in FM. I.e. What mentalities are suitable what team instructions you need, how many of each duty is suitable, what formations can and can't use each strategy or even some extra guidance on what roles are needed/not needed. To some people this is likely really obvious but as someone who never really played football as a kid and only really gets to watch match of the day and the odd live FA cup game, I was familiar with most of the concepts but how to implement them into FM just doesn't seem obvious to me from what you wrote. It is of course possible that I am being incredibly dense but just for us dense people when you update this for FM16 please be more explicit on how to actually implement the strategies in FM.
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Anyway to stop a players personality drop?
in Tactics, Training & Strategies Discussion
Posted
Unless he is a highly influential player or higher making him a mentor will most likely cause him to be influenced negatively by the other players in his mentoring group, so I would stay away from this. The only thing you can do to stop personality drops other than this is sell your clubs team leaders with poor personalities and bring in high reputation players with good personalities. This can be challenging of course with limited budgets etc. but it is the only way round it that I have found.