WhyMe
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Posts posted by WhyMe
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I haven't got FM23 yet, but I was thinking about an Arteta replication when I do as well. I like your ideas, but just to play devil's advocate on a few roles.
Completely agree that Jesus is a support role, but his key contribution has been leading Arsenal's press, have you considered a customised PF-s, i.e. add some PIs to make him roam, dribble and be a bit more creative? He wouldn't drop as deep in this role as he would as an F9, which is probably close to how he actually plays ILR, he is definitely not a TQ
Martinelli so far has 5 goals and 2 assists and tends to get into scoring positions far more than trying to be creative. I would say that is at least IF-s, rather than IW-s. You could also make a strong case for an attack duty (either IW-a or IF-a), potentially with a stay wider and roam PIs on all counts, to reflect the interchanging of position and Xhaka's movement.
I like the idea of Saka as a wrong foot winger-a, though IW-a would probably also be a reasonable description of what he is currently doing for Arsenal. I would agree that Ben White is more a FB-s with PIs to make him a bit more aggressive than a WB-s, but if it works in game *shrug*.
Odegaard I like as either AP-a or Mezz-a, my inclination would be if you did make Martinelli into an attack duty then Odegaard would do well as an AP with a stay wider PI (to reflect the fact he tends to get close to Saka). I think in reality he is more AP-a than Mezz, but you have to be practical for what works in game
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It might be as simple as a change in reputation is causing opposition teams to play a bit more direct against you and that is causing them to have a lot of low quality shots. This can cause inflated XG, but doesn't lead to too many goals against. What is the opposition XG per shot? If its not too bad and if you aren't conceding too many then I wouldn't worry about it.
However, If you are also conceding a lot of goals then quality could be an issue, particularly your DM.
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That is odd then because he should definitely get further forward than the other 2 CBs, have you tried it without the IWB? I know it shouldn't have an effect, but just in case. What about the player themselves, do they have any problematic PPMs such as stays back at all times? I don't know what else to suggest, maybe someone who has used the libero-a on this version of FM might have more luck. The libero on attack is definitely the role you want, but I have always found it quite temperamental and tricky to get to work.
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The libero on attack will to a degree do what you want and is the closest you will get. The problem basically is its behaviour is dependant on the role and position of other players around it. If you want a libero to get really far forward then you can't have anyone in the DM strata and you also don't want a playmaker role in the CM position. I haven't tried the libero in FM22, but this was the conventional wisdom of how to get him as far forward as possible (you also can't play too direct or the attack will be over by the time he gets forward). I can confirm this did work in a previous version though (at least to a point, I never managed to get one playing in the AM position like some did).
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Personally I wouldn't expect the new version to work very well. You have 3 designated playmakers all right next to each other (2TQs and 1 APs), the reason for my original suggestion of switching 1 guy to a TQ was to give you more variety in attack and stop it being so symmetrical, whilst also keeping him far enough away from the other playmaker to avoid them just passing the ball between them (from the ball magnet effect of designated PMs) and getting you nowhere. That said I prefer the BWMs to a Mez for the midfield 2. I did suggest trying the CMs in the DM strata like JDB for the same reason and I still think this is worth trying to see how it goes, you should find this helps with the counter attack problem. Though I think in the long run you might want to have an alternative tactic which has them in the DM strata and one that has them in the CM and then it gives you something different to switch to when things aren't going well.
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Haven't tried a 4-2-3-1 narrow in many FM versions so this is more things to try rather than things I know will work, but they are:
Can either of your two SS-a play as a TQ? If so I would swap the one on the right hand side (i.e. away from the dlp) to that and see how that goes. The extra roaming and creativity might give you what you need to create more chances without significantly reducing your goal threat from that player.
I would also get rid of the mez-s. You already have 3 players who will look to get into the box (4 if you count the AM-s) so he is over kill. Turn him into a more supporting role such as the CAR or a CM-s and you should get less over crowding and better ball retention/chance creation
Last but not least, you could also consider dropping the 2 CMs back to DM, at least in some games. This would in theory create more space for your AM to drop into to receive the ball and create, improve options for possession retention and give you a nice stable base for defence. It would in theory also give more space for your TQ to roam into as well if you were to pick one.
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I really like the look of the new 4-4-1-1, looks very interesting. Hell of a lot of instructions though like Herne already said. The only thing that would make me a bit nervous is how attacking your right side is, 2 attack duties and the aggressive wingback behind them. I can see the overload from this being fantastic against weaker teams, but you could get caught out defensively against better opposition. Situationally switching to a regular fullback on support or a wingback defend would probably work if you see that happening in matches though. I am curious to know if you have any PIs on the WM-a (or indeed other players) and how many goals/assists your IWB-a gets over the course of a season. Good luck though, looks like a lot of fun, you could test the tactic with less instructions to see if it still plays the same way and/or have a simpler version for certain types of opposition.
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Have you considered trying him as an AP-a or even a TQ instead? I guess my biggest concern would be currently he and Buendia might just be in too similar a role and perhaps drifting into/attacking the same space. Alternatively is he just getting low rating because he is taking too many long shots from poor positions, have you tried shoot less often and tries more killer balls PIs?
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Hi Robot, a lot to unpick there and I am by no means the tactical expert some on this forum are, but I'll have a go.
Firstly, you are quite right I wasn't just suggesting slap attack duties on it and I completely agree that that style isn't punished enough often.
However, when I was talking about movement between the lines I was talking about interchanging of position between strata the examples you gave of overlapping fullbacks of inverted wingers or SS over DLF are indeed two examples of that. These have the advantage of creating space for one of your players or at least confusion in the opposition defence. For example, CB moves out of his position to mark the forward dropping deep and the SS bursts in behind him to score. However, these classic examples aren't the only way of doing this. Take your tactic for example, you have your AF pinning back the opposition defence and trying to get in behind, that can create a bit of space for your SS to exploit as well just in a different way so that in itself is not necessarily a problem and can work (equally you can create an overload in the box this way potentially as well. So as a combo SS-AF isn't necessarily a dead loss, it can definitely work as long as there is some movement and variety in your tactic elsewhere.. Your problem is that there is very little movement anywhere else either (partly due to all 3 front players being on the same duty and all the players behind them on the same support duty as well and then all those behind them on defend duties, effectively what I am saying is you need some variety between the players in a specific strata to create some movement/variety), in other words no movement between the lines anywhere so no one creating space or dropping into space etc. As I mentioned in my first post I have always struggled with box midfields so I am probably not the best person to try to fix the issue but I'd look at it like this, ask yourself these 4 questions:
- How am I creating space and who is going to use it? You have the AF pinning the defence back/trying to run in behind it, but not much else, see below for some suggestions)
- Who do I want to score? Guessing AF/SS mainly
- Who is going to create the goals and how? Guessing through balls from playmakers/crosses from WB
- How do I ensure I have some variety? At the moment there isn't much as mentioned so below I suggest a couple of things to try.
Now obviously this is complicated by the fact you want a replication so can't deviate too much, but just to make some suggestions on things you could try. These suggestions are really just a way to exaggerate the movement patterns you said you were trying to get in your reply.
Drop the AP and DLP down 1 duty each, i.e. make the DLP DLP-d and the AP AP-s (maybe add run with ball often to keep that dribbling you wanted) and then make the right wing back WB-a. This will create some movement between the lines and also give you variety with your right side different to your left side. You right centre will also attract the ball (due to the playmaker roles) and so you have the opportunity to build up down the right and then either your play makers ping a through ball to your AF or SS for them to score or to the overlapping WB to cross for said AF/SS.
It wouldn't be a massive deviation from your current setup but it would create a bit more variety and maybe just maybe solve you static attack issues.
If this doesn't work and it by no means certainly will (as mentioned bad at box midfields) you could try other small changes such as adding roaming to the AP or get further forward to the BWM (attempt to overload the box on the left/have a late arriving goal threat that gives it a bit more welly). Beyond things like this you would be getting too far from your original replication which just may not be possible in the FM21 match engine, but someone else may have a solution.
To address your last point, nothing wrong with dribbling as a way of creating space and/or movement, but if it is the only way a tactic does it then that makes it easier to defend against as there is not any variety. Also tactics that create space with movement between the lines actually often give better opportunities for dribbling as it is much harder to dribble if you are pressed up against your marker which will more often happen with a player on an attack duty. Whereas a support duty might drop deep to receive the ball and then turn and run at the opposition which in itself can create more mayhem./
Anyway I hope this helps or at least helps you come up with better ideas to solve the problem.
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Can't comment on replication terms but in FM terms the thing that leaps out at me is you having your defence on defend, midfield on support (counting WB as midfield here) and front 3 on attack. Very little movement between the lines (and no roaming roles either to try to create any confusion/lateral movement) and that should make it easy to defend against. Yes you are playing direct so this is less bad, but box midfields are really hard to get right (at least I've always struggled) and the lack of movement is probably what is killing you in the ME. Only problem is any suggestions for fixing it in FM terms will take you away from the replication as the roles and duties you have selected make sense for the replication, it just doesn't work in the match engine.
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You could try giving your front 5 close down more instructions for a split block and see if that helps
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A few questions I'd ask myself if I were in your situation.
- What sort of goals am I leaking? My guess is that you probably don't have enough defensive cover when attacking as both central midfielders and both fullbacks are relatively attacking roles (WB-s has get further forward hard coded). If you keep your current distribution of duties on the right hand side I would swap the WB on the right to FB-s or at a push WB-d to deal with this situation.
- Are you getting high XG because you are just taking a boat load of shots each game? If your XG is 2 but it is from 30 shots then the actual quality of the chances is rubbish and will often lead to under performing XG. If so then you need to change how you are attacking. I would suggest firstly, the MEZ-a and IF-a on the same side probably has them both attacking the same space. This can be a good thing as you can create overloads, but if the space the two roles attack is too similar then they can just end up getting in each others way. You could swap your 2 midfielders round (though this would impact the above) or change the MEZ to a CM-a (ideally with roam). In the latter they may still attack the same space a bit but it should be less, though still something you would need to keep an eye on. In FM21 a winger-a and CM-a on the same side were fabulous for creating overloads while keeping the getting in each others way to a minimum (haven't tried this on FM22 much yet though). Secondly, I'd drop narrow to standard or even go wider to pull the opposition defence around a bit more. Lastly, drop tempo one notch to higher as your players may be rushing their decisions leading to low percentage shots or not making the most of opportunities.
- Does you SK need to be on attack duty, is the player suited to it and are you losing the ball too much in dangerous areas because he is on attack? Your screen shot you shared earlier suggests SK-d is his best role, would that suit your tactic better since you are telling him to pass it short and play out of defence anyway (in other words more like SK-d)
These are just a few things to think about with suggestions on how to potentially fix them if you find they are the case when you review your stats/matches.
Hope it helps
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I've not really played FM22 much yet so not sure how this match engine works really, but my first thought when looking at your setup and your problem is that you lack penetration into the box from deep and your left flank is quite conservative. You could try switching your left winger to an attack duty to fix both problems.
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On 20/12/2021 at 05:45, nully29 said:
It does. The channel is vulnerable if DM is told to Hold position.
Hold position is a with the ball instruction, not a defensive one (it instructs the player not to move ahead of the ball and instead stick to his position to protect against counter attacks and the like). So it wouldn't have any effect in the defensive phase.
That said the anchor man role does tend to sit in front of the centre backs to protect them, rather than go after the ball on the flanks so a switch to a defensive midfield role that is more aggressive in their defending might help if this happens again.
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I also find that my successful tactic can sometimes just come unstuck against a particular style or even a particularly manager. Are you also struggling a bit more against other managers who play the same style as the Dortmund manager or is it just Dortmund? What formation/style do they play and are there some logical tweaks you can make to your system that will help mitigate an advantage of theirs or exploit a weakness? This can be as simple as changing a duty in one position or swapping a single player to a different role sometimes. My problem is I often can't remember what I changed that worked against manager X and I end up with half a dozen saved version of a tactic that work against a particular style/manager so I don't forget what I did!
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In short no , I wouldn't expect it to work terribly well. Your team instructions, roles and duties have some conflicts in them. Most of your instructions appear to be aimed at setting up a direct style but then you have short passing, roll it out and distribute to centre backs which don't fit to the direct football. Also having your front 3 all on attack and your fullbacks on conservative roles/duties is more in line with someone trying to play a direct game (though even then having all 3 roles on attack still isn't usually a great idea.
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as a side note, I've been testing something similar to your alternative version and I find that the RMD doesn't combine terribly well with the AF-a. However, if you switch the AF to a CF-a then you get a lot of lovely combinations between the CF-a and RMD with both being a goal threat
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I almost never use 4-2-3-1 so feel free to take this with a healthy dose of salt, but I did have a very successful long term save with Valencia so I know the players well. First off completely agree that Maxi isn't well suited to AF. However, he did do an excellent job for me for a number of years as a CF-a where he does drop deep in the build up hold the ball up sometimes, but will also attack the box to get on the end of crosses. Gaya is absolutely wasted as a FB-s, your 4-1-2-2-1 makes much better use of him and he is Valencia's best player (along with Soler). Your central midfield pairing isn't great, you don't have anyone providing defensive cover really, though two FB-s make this less bad it is still going to lead to you getting done on the counter through the middle more than you should and also have no one to provide a central ball recycling option when things break down. I'm not a massive fan of pairing an AM-a with a AF-a either as they are both attacking the same potentially congested space, but it can work. That said a CF-a/AM-a combo would be better.
Your 4-1-2-2-1 is better, though an AF can get isolated in that system and Maxi isn't a good fit anyway. I would consider changing your two central midfielders, perhaps a CAR or DLP-s for Koba and a CM-a for Musah (or Soler if you still have him, like I say one of Valencia's two best players)). Your current system lacks central penetration and your AF will likely get isolated.
Hope this helps anyway.
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If you normally play with a high LOE and standard DL then I am guessing your defence is getting stretched because roles and duties wise you are not overly attacking , in fact this is a relatively conservative setup. I would give it a try on high DL and High LOE or standard/standard. You could also look to compress the space and have LOE one notch lower than DL, but that might be too big a change for now. The other possibility is that your player in the DLP role doesn't have decent defensive stats in which case it could also be a personnel problem.
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Have you tried changing the way you defend against top teams? Switching to a split block with a standard DL and lower LOE with either standard or less urgent pressing for example? Very good sides can take advantage of the gaps in your defence your pressing style creates and pop it around your counter press to keep the ball whilst advancing up field.. Obviously, you will need to score as well and if your attack isn't working either then you will need to make changes there, but not conceding 4 goals has to be your starting point. Changing your defensive style is one option, but if you are getting done on the break constantly as well you may need to switch one or two roles to more conservative options, for example, you could make the left wing back a WB-D or FB-s (or even a IWB-d). Alternatively, switching the BBM to a support player with hold position PI e.g. BWM or CM-s depending on your player could work.
Obviously, your tactic works so you shouldn't need a radical change, just a tweak to either roles, duties or defensive strategy will hopefully make you at least competitive against specific teams.
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A few things to consider:
- The formation on the tactics screen is your defensive formation. You have four players in advanced positions and a massive hole between the front and back players for the opposition to exploit. Add to this your strikers won't track back very much (the attack duty one at all) and whilst the two players in the AM strata will track back a bit more (though again the attack duty one not much), it still isn't going to be fabulous. This big hole in the middle and out wide can be effectively exploited by possession based teams to create good chances.
- You also don't have any significant holding player in the centre of midfield, the DLP-s is the closest, but on a support duty even he can get caught up field often enough on the break for the opposition to create quite a bit on the break. In a formation like a 4-2-4 you mainly need your DMs to provide a solid base while the full-backs and front 4 do the damage (a bit like in a 4-2-3-1 only more so). However, I wouldn't normally use a 4-2-4 all the time, more as a desperation move when I needed a goal, in which case defensive solidity isn't normally the main goal.
However, if you are in general outperforming expectations with the team you are and just want to concentrate on scoring rather than being solid at the back then maybe just enjoy the ride. A 4-2-4 isn't really designed for being defensively solid, but can work as a mad high press klopp heavy metal style tactic, though you will always be on the wrong end of the occasional freak result/hiding by quality opposition
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I had an Arsenal save in mind for my last FM21 long term save and just a laugh I thought I'd give this a go with Arsenal. They don't really have the players well suited for it, but I figured I'd shoe horn what they had into the tactic for now and then look to build a more suitable squad for it over time. I was staggered by how well it went.
I have two versions of the tactic and on the main one I went with the RPM and IWB-s version in the end with a IW-a/W-a on the right flank to provide an additional goal threat. The alternative version is a DM 4-2-3-1 with a FB-s instead of IWB-s, but otherwise basically the same except for a split low block instead of a high press in the main tactic.
On to performances, I am only in March so not a complete season yet but, Auba has 32 goals in 26 starts (3 sub) playing as a TQ up top. Reiss Nelson has 16 goals and 9 assists playing as a IW-a (and W-a occasionally) in 23 starts (3 sub), Smith Rowe has 10 assists and 3 goals as the AP-s on the left in 23 starts (12 sub) and Odegaard has 15 assists and 4 goals playing as shadow striker (though this is inflated by the fact he takes set pieces, so perhaps the most disappointing). The only average rating below 7 in the starting 11 is Dani Ceballos playing as the RPM, but he isn't terribly well suited to the role and he has been sharing duties with Granit Xhaka who has a 7.13, so still not too bad.
However, the guy playing as the TQ in the second string for Europa league/easier league games/easy cup games is Lacazette and he has not performed well, particularly when compared to Auba. He has still managed an average rating of 6.98 with 6 goals and 5 assists from 16 starts (5 sub).
Still it has been a fun experiment and I will carry on the save with the tactics, I am interested to see how good it is when the players actually suit the tactic.
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Actually I was speculating about trying something with a playmaker in 3 different tiers, something like:
TQ
AP-s AM-A ??
CM-d DLP-s
WB-a CD-d CD-d WB-s
Not sure what I would play on the right side, torn between IF-s and W-a
Could also swap out the WB-s for something a bit more conservative/an IWB-s/d and make the DLP-s an RPM for giggles. Similarly AM-a could be an SS.
The idea being the TQ works as a hybrid scorer/creator which moves around a lot to create space for the AM who is the primary goal scorer, with whatever I pick at RW another goal scorer.
I almost never play 4-2-3-1 but I figure this could be fun, probably wouldn't work mind.
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What is actually happening against those opponents? Are you struggling defensively, struggling to create chances, struggling to put away chances? Are the games fairly even with decent numbers of shots for both teams or is it one sided for them? Do you generally create good chances, score ok, but keep getting done on the counter?
If I was going to guess looking purely at the tactics I'd be guessing you are getting done on the counter/have a soft centre. In both tactics you are pairing a DLP-s with another support CM, this will work fine against weaker opponents but with no true defensive screen (a DLP support can do an ok job depending on attributes, but still not a true holding player). This will leave you vulnerable to the counter and getting dominated by a quality player in the #10 position. You could try switching the DLP to defend, but in your tactics your attacking fullback is on the other side so I would suggest that you put the left sided CM on defend (could swap the DLP to that side and put him on defend). Currently having your attacking fullback on the same side as a CM-s/BBM is asking for defensive trouble, both with a soft centre AND a vulnerable left flank.
In addition to this, your defensive instructions in both tactics are extremely aggressive and in the case of the first one where your LOE is HIGHER than your DL you are making your soft centre even worse as you have no DM and are stretching the line between you defenders and midfield even more leaving a massive gap between your CMs and CBs for the opposition to exploit. I would definitely drop your LOE to at least higher and in some cases standard to compress the space instead of leaving it vulnerable. Situationally, you might also want to drop you pressing urgency if you notice your players are running around like headless chickens and the technically high quality opposition are just pinging it around them.
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It's all ok
in Tactics, Training & Strategies Discussion
Posted
Having six consecutive home games and then 7 away games is indeed weird. However, I think it is this that is making the run of form look worse than it is. In the winning run your small number of away games against relatively poor opposition are wins, but when the quality of opposition steps up in this run you drew (Fiorentina) or lost (Samp) with the exception being Inter right at the start. You also had a run of home wins against decent but not top opposition (again exception being Roma). Whereas for your losing away run the average standard of the opposition was much higher, you lost away to top opposition in Inter and Napoli, not unreasonable for Lazio, and then lost badly to Udinese whom you had only narrowly beaten at home. The poor run of results may have contributed to a loss of morale/confidence which led to the narrow defeat to Bologna. You then get a decent away point to Milan and a narrow defeat to Sassuolo.
To me this suggests you have a small flaw in your tactic that teams playing more aggressively at home manage to exploit better than teams playing away coupled with a weird calendar contributing to poor morale which exacerbated this problem. as you had a run of away games where you fell victim. I doubt a big change is needed in your tactic as it is at least reasonably successful clearly, just a small tweak for away matches.