[In Search of the Holy Grail: Can Wolves win the Premier League using a 'Projection' attacking style]

Really enjoying this thread and I think you're on to something with the "Attacking" mentality. 

"Projection" can obviously be interpreted as sit deep and play on the counter but for my money "Attacking" in FM has always produced the best transitional football as your players commit gung ho to every counter. Sure, it's risky, but nothing ventured, nothing gained.

[[FM23] Players can't score]

Always hard to say exactly what is happening without seeing the tactic and your players live, but the xG alone shows you aren’t creating quality chances.

Running the numbers quickly, 18 shots and 1.84 xG means an average of 0.1 xG per shot. Assuming you had a few 0.2 or maybe a 0.3 chances, the bulk of your shots are much lower.

Compare it to Charlton who have 0.15 xG per shot, it seems small and you were definitely unlucky to lose 4-0, but that’s a 50% increase on your average. 

Are your players shooting from outside the area or from odd angles? Or if in the box crowded out by defenders? When you’re playing such an aggressive setup like your 4-2-3-1, you need to think about player movement much more. Is the CF(S) meant to be a creator? If so who is scoring the goals? I only see the Shadow Striker who will reliably move ahead of him. The IF(S)’s will occasionally bomb forward but their instinct will be to get involved in the buildup and take long shots when they find space.

As for the 4-3-3, I’m not sure what you’re trying to achieve. It’s aggressive without being overly committed to attacking. It looks like it could be a counter tactic but the movement on the wings is far too basic with both wide forwards cutting in. When a natural counter attack occurs, your wings are essentially vacated in the transition.

[Guide to FM]

There are two things to keep in mind about Guide to FM.

1. As Rashidi says, SI aren't involved and GtFM don't name any sources for their information. So their entire guide and particularly their "Rate my Tactic" app are based on their own findings and algorithms for what should work in FM.
2. The guides are extremely verbose and often confusing. They invent so much terminology that it's really hard to glean what they mean. I've tried using their tactic builder guides myself for a bit of fun and even FM veterans can easily get lost in the minutiae without really understanding what you're doing.

Personally, I use their Rate my Tactic app occasionally for a second opinion as it helps you to think about a balance of duties and will certainly highlight very unbalanced tactics. But time and time again I have plenty of success using tactics that their app deem as problematic so it shows that tactic creation is really much more subjective than the formula they have come up with.

If you're stuck with tactic creation, the timeless "Pairs and Combinations" from llama3 can much better help you build a tactic that makes sense and is much easier to understand.

[Tactics with unusual roles]

Excuse the ratemytactic screenshot (as usual it says my tactic  - that I know works with the right players - is not up to scratch ), I'm at work so FM isn't loaded.



I got the WTM working in this specific system by putting the Playmaker close to him and using support roles on the opposite side, allowing him to find space and isolate the opposition FB. The direct balls played out to him in the buildup were mostly layed off to the AP(A) who either carried the ball, used the gaps that came through the switch of play to find the Advanced Forward or recycled via the DM, BBM and IW, allowing the WTM to drift up front again. He scored lots of goals by holding up the ball, interchanging passes with the AP/AF and being played in off the opposition FB. He also assisted 15-20 times a season with cutbacks and through balls to the AF. Finally, while recycling, he could target the oppositon FB and if the WB(S) or the IW(S) tried a deep cross to his side, he would often win the header, scoring 5-10 goals a season or knocking it down for another player.

Obviously this isn't the only way to get the WTM working but it's how I achieved it. My WTM was also fast and technical, a classic lumbering Target Man would probably struggle in this set up. And of course you need a really intelligent and fast Playmaker to pull it off too.

[Help with tactic]

I actually think you've got the overlap on the wrong side. In my experience a Raumdeuter works better when the wide play is a little focused down the other side, allowing him to lose his marker in the box/at the back post. I would use an attacking FB/WB on the left and the IFB behind the RMD. This shouldn't be your only route to goal but is more logical than having the overlap on his side forcing him to make runs later when the box is more congested, especially as you're using WBIB.

[Avoiding exploiting tactics]

6 hours ago, Maddux said:

But there you have it.

Bochum is a small club with players that arend't that gifted but have high aggression and are overall good in all the relevant defensive attributes. The squad is made for pressing, dosn't matter if high gegenpressing or a deeper midfield press. And you're playing in the Bundesliga. Have you ever watched any reallife Bundesliga matches? It's actually the worst football in europes top leagues because it's all just Gegenpressing and counterattacks. Literally everyone switched to gegenpress after Klopp showed at Dortmund that even small clubs have some success with it and are better off with gegenpress than with just parking the bus. Ralf Rangnik had a huge influence too.

And it's not just that everyone is using gegenpress, also every club, except for a few top clubs like Leverkusen, is building the squad to get the most out of gegenpress and counter attacks. Literally everyone is playing with a back-3, 2 fast wingbacks that have 0 skills but being fast and hitting crosses, 2 or 3 hard working midfielders that are good at winning the ball plus 2 Usain Bolt-like strikers. Creative midfielders that can dictate the play and find solutions against compact defenses? You won't find any outside of the top-4 even when using a microscope.

7 out of 9 matches every weekend are just 2 teams sitting deep and try to win with counter attacks after a successful gegenpress. It's horrible football and also a self-fullfilling prophecy. If your opponents don't have midfielders with good enough technical abilities to escape the gegenpress then it's obviously easier to win the ball back against them using pressing. And that#s what your friend experienced with Bochum. He used high pressing with a squad where even the goalie is a ball-winning midfielder vs opponents that don't have the ability to play their way out of the press.

Edit Bochum to La Liga or the Premier League and try the same thing there. Or with a small club in the first belgian or dutch league. You won't be even nearly as successful because most of your opponents technical attributes are good enough compared to your squad to escape the press and overrun your high rest defence.

I live in Germany and I'm a Bochum fan. I watch the Bundesliga most weeks, at least the highlights. I don't agree that they all just use Gegenpressing, but they certainly almost all play in the transitions much more capably than other leagues. IMO this has a lot to do with the quality of defender in the Bundesliga, not just the tactics/coaching. I remember years back everyone going on about Man United being stupid to get rid of Chicharito becuase he was scoring for fun at Leverkusen and I couldn't help but think "yeah but 15 of his opponents have basically 2nd league quality defenders". If anything I think Löw, Klinsmann, the class of 2014 and Manuel Neuer have all had just as much of an impact with their technical revolution, meaning defenders and goalkeepers are more likely to be better on the ball than off it.

You're right to an extent that Bochum are "built" for the Gegenpress, in so much as they possess lots of players with a great work ethic, but that's not all that matters. You need the technique at speed, decision making and above all, elite fitness to pull it off IRL every week. Bochum have had their fair share of players made of glass in recent years (becuase it's what they can afford). And technique is not something I'd expect to see in abundance at the Ruhrstadion. I get your angle but Europa League with their 22/23 squad is really unrealistic.

Also you've made my point for me when you talk about rest defence. Why didn't my mate concede 3-4 goals a game? IRL teams would be smart enough to pick Bochum off even if the are being intense. Or like you say, both teams press like hell and the result becomes a coinflip. Either way it proves my point that my mate's result shows there is a meta and that it disappoints me that I'll always have that temptation, when playing a completely different style, to flip the Gegenpressing switch in order to start getting success. Like I said, I'm not overly arsed that this is the case, but I'd prefer if it wasn't.

[Avoiding exploiting tactics]

I don't mind there being a meta or exploit tactics. If people want to go that route, it's a game that you can run as a simulation if you want, so feel free. I have big sympathy with SI as it must be a nightmare to balance something like that.

The bit that gets to me is that I will always feel I'm at a disadvantage if I don't use the meta. I often wish I didn't know it but I guess it's been fairly similar for 6-7 years now - gegenpress to death. Last year I had a save with VfL Bochum where I tried to build a sensible defence oriented tactic to keep us up and had really mixed results. Barely stayed up and didn't really have the funds to revamp the squad so felt I was in a groundhog day sort of situation. Told my mate about my predicament and how hard it was with Bochum, he fired up a save with an Attacking, Gegenpressing tactic and got Europa League with them first season. Proper killed the save for me. I know I could be safe in the knowledge that I was being "more realistic" but the difference was so stark.

The other point I'd make is that football is a lot more random than FM makes us feel it is, so I guess the wild results or swings if you decide to up the tempo, pressing etc. and give the opposition a headache, aren't that unrealistic. IMO the only solution is to make Gegenpressing a lot harder to pull off. Unless you have elite physical specimens and elite physios/sports scientists, it should essentially be off limits as a main tactic. There might be uproar in the community if this was the case, but perhaps the tactic creator will move away from the on/off switches it currently has eventually and pressing wil become as smart as IRL where teams conserve their energy in certain phases.

[Mentality equals aggression....yeah Mentality again.]

5 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

Normally I set up defence and modify attack, so let's go from there, from the base 433 I used. 

So I set up the defensive side. What do I want the players to do? Always the first thing to ask. In a 433 I want my players to get back into defence and set up a medium block. I avoid being too defensive because inviting pressure is rarely a good thing. I do not want teams playing right up against my area, but neither am I looking to engage them really high up the pitch. This defines all the defenders, the DMC and the two CMs. They get back into their positions. The roles are malleable somewhat, but lets assume DC(D) x2, DM(D) for the central 3. The roles of the other players are going to be defined by what I want to do in attack. The front 3 will be told to close down more individually. This is to encourage a little bit of pressure to try to let the rest of my team find shape. Sometimes I will instead man mark the full backs with the wide players if that is a problem. 

So what TIs go with this? I want to use a cautious mentality, to reduce risk taking. I definitely do not want to be playing out of defence. I want the standard DL and LOE. And that is pretty much it. I should be able to defend well enough like this. I'm considering this a game where I have a chance, so it is not parking the bus, but it is expecting to be attacked regularly. See how simple this is? I do not need to think in great detail. Everyone has a job in a 433 I just let them do it. 

Now for the attacking modifications to this. How do I want to attack? Well, vertically, but not long ball. The risk of long ball is that if it does not work, then you end up conceding possession too quickly and are under more pressure. Part of the defensive tactic is to not give the ball away too quickly, and if we do we make sure the transition from attack to defence is either over or the ball is lose in the opposition third. So this helps to define my other roles. I will want at least 3, and perhaps 4 attacking duties. One in defence, on in midfield, and maybe 2 in the front 3. Usually I will do with a FB(A), a CM(A), an IF(A) (or IW, or W, really this depends on the players) and a PF(A) - remember my striker is always pressing so this role makes sense. This player can also be on support duty to link with the other attack duty players. Typically I deploy the CM and IW/IF on opposite flanks so I have attacks on both sides of a striker, but again this depends. Since I am pushing players forward, I will want to have the other FB as a FB(D). Kinda gives me something like a back 3 when I attack. This is safe, and minimizes counter attacking risk. The other midfielder can be whatever you want. I usually use a DLP and W on support, but it can and does change. No roaming player in midfield though, that leaves us too open. What is the aim of this? Well, we get the ball, get it forward quickly (but safely), and use the players rushing forward to overwhelm a team during the transition, never allowing them to get set in defence. 

So how do we do safe, quick transitions? There are several scenarios. Firstly we win possession without the GK or the ball going dead. We want to get the ball forward quickly. So I would think TIs like more direct passing, higher tempo and counter. There is the situation where we recover the ball via the GK. Here I will instruct him to play it out short. This may seem counter intuitive, but there is a defined reason to this. After the keeper gets the ball it is unlikely I will get the kind of fast transitions I want. Particularly from a GK. So we play it short, and we try to pull a team on to us. We are not looking to pass around in defence, but draw as many players in as possible and play it behind them to the midfield or forwards. It is a pressing trap. And it can manufactor a quick attack where none should exist if a team overzealously presses you with too high a LOE. The final scenario is defensive set pieces, which are vital to set up well when counter attacking. You want fast players on the edge of the box and up front (fast and good acceleration actually). I usually put two on the edge of the area and one up front, so I can quickly counter with 3 players. This usually triggers the in game counter attack mechanic, so there is nothing extra to do. 

So I hope that makes sense to you? In summary, the TIs I would use were.

In possession:
- higher tempo
- more direct passing

In transition:
- counter
-short GK distribution (to CBs/FBs).

In defence: 
nothing.

and with a cautious mentality.

Anyway I hope it is clear that I have set up the team initially with defence in mind, and then almost everything I have changed was based on attacking. You can do this in reverse, but I rarely ever do (mostly because my instincts work the other way around). I do not have the copy of FM on this PC so it is hard to display things pictorially, so please ask for any clarification. 

Top quality post. Don't be hard on yourself, you've got a great way of clearly explaining how you go through the process. Wordy, yes, but in a good way 😎

[Dorking Wanderers: Building a Possession 4-4-2]

Great read. KUTGW 

[FM21 for Dummies - A simple approach to FM21]

Shocked that this thread hasn't gained more traction. Apart from the few pointers from Herne, this is a fantastic guide for beginners and exactly the sort of writing people need in order to get into the game.

I'm really not a fan of the seemingly constant bombardment of users with complete tactics and role combinations on the forum, as it promotes confusion and gives the impression that there are discrete solutions rather than the set of options that you outline here. Starting by assessing your squad and building something that maximises their strengths is the tried and tested method when it comes to learning the game comfortably and step-by-step and you nail it in your follow up posts.

Once again though, great guide for beginners and hope it gets the attention it deserves at some point 

[Tactics Gymnastics - Lyon]

Completely missed this thread during the FM19 cycle and only recently discovered it.

@westy8chimp Absolutely top work, really enjoyed seeing how those little changes make a big difference. I do like to try stuff like this myself in games but often chicken out of it  I don't have screenshots but in FM20 I managed to beat England and Wales with Belarus at the 2028 Euros by watching carefully and taking note of where they were giving up space for me to exploit. We were lucky to have 1-2 borderline world class players that I positioned as Inside Forwards, Mezzalas or Playmakers in order to hurt the opponent where they were weakest. Not exactly the same as what you were doing but it is the best feeling in FM when it works!

@IL Luce Great posts as well. I'll definitely be incorporating some of this stuff into my lower league journeyman save to see how well you can get it working without top players. The principles are the same but I'm not sure how readily I can rely on the scouting data. We'll have to see.

[A Discussion About the Advanced Playmaker]

This is a great thread. I think it's been said by a few people so far but when choosing an AM Role, it really depends heavily on what you're looking for.

I've had great success recently playing with a 4-1-2-1-2 and I switch up my AM Role depending on the opposition I'll be facing. If I'm the underdog and I know the opponent will be leaving my "Front 3" space to exploit, then my AM will be an AM(A) behind an AF(A) and a DLF(S)/PF(S). This allows us to work the channels and drag the defenders around, with my AM exploiting gaps with forward dribbles, late runs and progressive passing.

If however we're the favourite and/or the opponent is looking to drop off and defend, I play an AP(S) behind an AF(A) and a PF(A). This ensures the defenders are constantly occupied and gives the AP the space to dictate play from the number 10 position and beyond, as he also moves out to the flanks to support advancing wing backs. This gives us more angles of attack and a direct threat with two forwards looking to exploit through balls should my AP/DLP/HB want to play it long.

In essence, changing a few roles gives us two different play styles, overloading the 10 position and looking for smart transisitions or patiently drawing a few yards of space then killing the opposition with clever passes. Simple but very effective.

[Recreating Julian Nagelsmann]

Just want to stop in to say well done on another great thread @Jack722

Felt like a breath of fresh air to read stuff that's based first and foremost off football logic and not game logic. Then how you stick or twist with certain roles and instructions in order to strike that balance between what feels like RBL but also makes sense in FM.

You reckon your happy with the final version now or will there be more tweaks?

[How to Create Complex Attacking Patterns to Break Down Defensive Teams]

This thread is brilliant. Probably the best there's been this edition.

@Jack722 Feels like a fresh approach to posting the way in which you start from the base of considering the most common attacking patterns, rather than simply roles, mentality, TI's and the like. With this you show what I feel this forum has lost over the years - once you know how you want to play, the rest just falls into place.

Sure, it can be trial and error and take seasons until you get the right players if you're starting lower down, but in essence knowing what you want/expect to see makes changing stuff easier further down the line. Throwing out a combination of roles/TI's as an abstract helpful post is a bit too gamey for my liking. The OP shows here that football logic still applies very much when you want it to. 

[Football Manager 2020 Touch Switch Official Feedback Thread]

Just wanted to pop in and make a couple of points:
 

• The UI is a great improvement on FMT18 (which I also played on the Switch) and feels a lot more intuitive. That said, I feel there's a bit of work to go in this department. The hitboxes on certain buttons/dropdowns seem inconsistent and this makes team selection a bit of a faff.
• There seems to be some sort of graphical glitch whereby the crowd members appear to "flash" during sunny weather. Maybe something to do with the way the lighting is processed on the switch version?
• Overall a smoother experience to that of FMT18; the processing times are lightning quick in comparison.

[Manchester United 1994 tactics]

Ok, so first of all there's no point trying to force a modern looking 4-2-3-1 into this discussion. United defended in a 4-4-2, no question about that (as SAF himself would put it!).

In essence the tactic was extremely simple:

• 4 defenders at the back with the full backs able to support when neccessary.
• 2 central midfielders who used physicality to impose themselves and feed the ball to the wingers/Cantona.
• 2 wingers widening the field of play and committing defenders.
• 1 forward staying high and testing the back line.
• ...and an Eric Cantona.

So for me it's simple 4-4-2 all the way with various situational/personnel tweaks. I'd go with:

                GK(D)

FB(S)   CB(D)   CB(D)   FB(S)

W(S)  CM(S)  BWM(D)  W(A)

         P(A)   T(A)/DLF(S)

When your 'Cantona' plays (assuming you have this style of player because it's integral IMO), then a Trequartista is the closest role to the freedom he had. Otherwise DLF(S) should work.

Another thing to consider is playing a Poacher with good aerial ability in order to mimic Hughes, but this is more about mirroring player types than tactics.

[Touchline Team Talks]

3 hours ago, phnompenhandy said:

Problem for me is the way to use it totally undermines the idea of a 'touchline shout'. You need to fumble about with a minimum of 5 clicks, taking your eye of the match and frequently you lose the menu before you get to the final click because some action in the game knocks it out.

There is of course a pause button

[Quickfire Questions and Answers Thread (Tactic and Training Questions Only)]

25 minutes ago, 91427 said:

I've tried playing on defensive but it didn't seem to make any difference. No matter what they sit wider than my full backs and leave the midfield two exposed. I've attached some examples below

There's nothing particularly complicated about the way I want to defend, just want to use a compact and narrow shape and its frustrating that it seems impossible to change defensive width

 

Any more details about your set-up you can give us? It could be due to marking/closing down instructions...

[2. Total Barcelona - Cruyff 1992]

Not to burst your bubble but @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! did a fantastic job of recreating what you're aiming for a few editions back.

[1. Fergie's Red Empire]

19 hours ago, Jean0987654321 said:

Good God Almighty. You can't be serious. A manager who survived almost 3 decades is NOT a tactical manager? My God :o

There seem to be a lot of black and white views floating around here. In saying that Fergie recognised his own strengths and limitations by calling on help and expertise from others is not the same thing as saying he was terrible at tactics.

He was an innovator himself many times but in this specific period relied heavily on Queiroz's input regarding shape and structure.

@themadsheep2001 Interesting set-up but I honestly feel you are taking elements from the 07/08 side and warping it into something slightly different that works for you. As others have outlined, obviously there's always going to be debate to be had around roles and fitting the current squad into that framework due to attributes/PPM's etc. but I really don't think a Winger and RPM represent what United were up to that season.

[1. Fergie's Red Empire]

7 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

This isn't true. On the contrary Ferguson was tactically orientated, he just didn't micro manage heavily , with the Barcelona semi final being one of the big exceptions, where he and Quieroz basically mapped out the exactly positions he wanted them to fall back to. But that shouldn't be taken as a lack of tactical nous, he was very adept at reading sides 

 

You've literally just provided the contradictory evidence that disproves your point

Ferguson came to rely on his assistants/coaches for getting him through tough tactical battles. Queiroz was massively important in turning United into a top continental side in that 2004-08 period. In his twilight years, Fergie went back to his roots and dragged his team to titles through sheer willpower and simple tactical instructions.

[Lines and Diamonds: The Tactician's Handbook for Football Manager 2015]

On 24.2.2018 at 15:59, summatsupeer said:

Team shape and how it combines with duty is the only mechanic out of date.

I'm interested as to exactly what you mean here. Is there something I've missed?

I've continued to use THOG's descriptions of Team Shape for the last 3 editions in order to inform which one I should select. Of course there's no definitive guide, but his descriptions are the closest thing you can get to a troubleshooter when you know how you want to play but you're not sure which Team Shape setting complimets what you're trying to achieve.

As a further point, I don't think it matters if subtle mechanics change from edition to edition, this handbook is still more than relevant and contains all the information you need to build a tactic that adheres to certain principles - even if those principles are simple. THOG said it best in his intro: it's intended more as a reference than a guide to soak in during a few sittings.

[1. Fergie's Red Empire]

26 minutes ago, mjp1 said:

I think an important thing that is being missed here is that Ronaldo played the large majority of his football on the right that season. The tactic in the OP is one we pretty much only used in the final.

This is far closer to what we actually played for the majority of the season. The important thing about that season and the one after was Sir Alex's pragmatism with how he set up his "front 4", only the back 4 and midfield 2 were the same no matter what.

That's actually a good point about Ronaldo... and Giggs did see plenty of time as a wide "too-slow-to-be-a-winger-but-still-technically-brilliant" type of player... but was it more that the front three switched positions fluidly?

IMO, I'd say the same about your tactic as the OP. Why complicate things by going asymmetrical? Why give yourself an extra problem to solve by leaving such a large gap down the right flank? A flat 4-4-2 regardless of any further instructions would instantly give you a more stable starting point

[1. Fergie's Red Empire]

1 hour ago, sherifdinn_ said:

I think the other roles at self explanatory but I'm not sure about Evra tho, he went forward a lot, and at times underlapped Ronaldo so I'm not sure what role can replicate that.

I actually think the IWB is not at all what Evra did. The FM interpretation is more akin to how Pep is getting his wide defenders playing - coming properly into midfield during transition to attack and beyond. Evra stayed on the touchline and occasionally came inside much further up the pitch. My thinking was CWB because they have a default Roam From Position so he may on occasion come narrower.

What we saw IRL could end up being a bit too difficult on FM and again, needlessly complicated. In essence, Ronaldo had license to cause havoc from that wide position and Evra backed him up by never being too far from him. Some sort of attacking IF/IWB backed up by a supporting WB will be close enough.

[1. Fergie's Red Empire]

33 minutes ago, denen123 said:

Your interpretation isn't bad at all.But I think he was going for the rather more accurate interpretation of the tactic which is the assymetric set up underlined in the image he got from the website.

 

Maybe @goqs06 is more accurate in terms of attacking shape but - as you say yourself -  it's too complicated overall.

When trying to replicate a real life tactic, I think it's important to start out with as simple an interpretation as possible, then tweak to either match what you see or what will make it function more effectively. Now fair enough if you have time and a fantastic football/FM eye. Then you can watch any combination of instructions/mentality/shape and pick up on the minutiae in order to improve the tactic, but for most of us (definitely me!), simple is where it's at and it allows you to keep track of what changes are doing what.