Complete disregard for leage schedule rules

[scythian12]

I am really confused as in why the file completely disregards the fixture list / anything in the league schedule menu (for the uppermost division for the time being) and will happily schedule late into Dec / early Jan, on Saturdays instead of Sundays. Anything obvious I am missing in some misc settings?

for instance, break settings (dates taken from neat fixture list)

league testing...

Luxi turbó.fmf

[scythian12]

This is its schedule in the test

 

[Wolf_pd]

Do you use fixture dates?

[scythian12]

15 minutes ago, Wolf_pd said:

Do you use fixture dates?

Yeah, in a large table. Using the "number" type. Start / end dates and the league break find them fine. I used them previously in another editor file in FM23

 

 

 

[scythian12]

[themodelcitizen]

Is it finding clashes and postponing games? That would make sense that it defaults to Saturday (most nations have this as default weekend date). Check the box for "block postponements" in the break period. The game can be incredibly obtuse with scheduling, they claimed to have fixed it this year but no dice.

Also, you're not actually using fixture dates 1 through 28. "Start" and "end" dates are just that, and the game fills in the blanks on its own. You'll have to list them all under "league schedule"/"dates" (you can specify the fixture date here) if you want the game to use them. This is more work but allows complete control over scheduling for each matchday, with offset dates

[scythian12]

2 hours ago, themodelcitizen said:

Is it finding clashes and postponing games? That would make sense that it defaults to Saturday (most nations have this as default weekend date). Check the box for "block postponements" in the break period. The game can be incredibly obtuse with scheduling, they claimed to have fixed it this year but no dice.

Also, you're not actually using fixture dates 1 through 28. "Start" and "end" dates are just that, and the game fills in the blanks on its own. You'll have to list them all under "league schedule"/"dates" (you can specify the fixture date here) if you want the game to use them. This is more work but allows complete control over scheduling for each matchday, with offset dates

Thanks for the tip, but I am still battling the unique charm of a piece of software that has features with names that *may* do what you would expect them to do. I have now tried the "Dates" tab as well, but to no avail. I have the (probably unfounded) impression it finds the start and end dates from the fixture list "League Schedule --> General", however it certainly does not take the break period also defined with dates from there "League Schedule --> Break Periods", the matchday settings "League Schedule --> Match Days", or in the latest case the full schedule from "League Schedule --> Dates". :-/

 

PS - there is also the "Fixture Times and Dates --> Valid Fixture Dates" menu as well, which I am not using at the moment. Does a Genie from a lamp here have the mystic powers to deduce its function?

 

PS2 - also to answer some of your questions, as it schedules regular matchdays to late Dec (under the Database --> Lux Nat Div --> Test --> Years --> 20023 --> schedule), at the start of the season, these are not moved there, but it just neatly spreads the days between the start and end date.

From a weekday perspective, Sunday matches are very much the exception, and are most certainly extraordinarily moved matches, as opposed to Sat.

 

Edited November 22, 2023 by scythian12

[scythian12]

If anyone is curious, here is the latest version of the file. Still matches in late Dec / entirety of Jan.

Luxi turbó.fmf

[themodelcitizen]

Under "dates", you'll need to have all 28 entries. Each won't be set to a "date" - that box is unchecked - but a "fixture date", and each will correspond to one of the 28 that you have set in "fixture dates". That's all "fixture dates" is - just a reference for other areas, including parts of the nation rules (like season start and end date). However, even with this, dates may still get moved for cup games, continental games, or clashes if there's an odd number of teams and it has difficulty scheduling all the dates. Under "league schedule" you should also make sure "check for clashes with" is set to "none", and under fixture rules you should make sure "plays on international match days" is checked and "stop for international finals" is active and unchecked (or whatever they are).

When it does find clashes though, it will resort to "matchday" (possibly Saturday/Wednesday if nothing else is specified) and try to cram them in when it finds openings, usually at the beginning of the season but in your case that December period. "Break periods" will always be enforced if you also check the box for no postponements.

Agreed, it's confusing as hell, but looking at the setup of default comps can help

[scythian12]

9 minutes ago, themodelcitizen said:

Under "dates", you'll need to have all 28 entries. Each won't be set to a "date" - that box is unchecked - but a "fixture date", and each will correspond to one of the 28 that you have set in "fixture dates". That's all "fixture dates" is - just a reference for other areas, including parts of the nation rules (like season start and end date). However, even with this, dates may still get moved for cup games, continental games, or clashes if there's an odd number of teams and it has difficulty scheduling all the dates. Under "league schedule" you should also make sure "check for clashes with" is set to "none", and under fixture rules you should make sure "plays on international match days" is checked and "stop for international finals" is active and unchecked (or whatever they are).

When it does find clashes though, it will resort to "matchday" (possibly Saturday/Wednesday if nothing else is specified) and try to cram them in when it finds openings, usually at the beginning of the season but in your case that December period. "Break periods" will always be enforced if you also check the box for no postponements.

Agreed, it's confusing as hell, but looking at the setup of default comps can help

Sorry have edited my response #1 whilst you answered, you may want to reread it. I do have dates set up as you have described, for all 30 matchdays.

But the matches in Dec / Jan are not moved there, they are regularly scheduled at the start of the season! Hence this is not an issue with clashes, but some incredibly obtuse setting box somewhere which is either checked or unchecked.

Edited November 22, 2023 by scythian12

[themodelcitizen]

Hmm, I seem to remember FM23 was doing that too so I literally put in break periods for almost all the Monday to Friday periods, and then it would force it to schedule games on the available weekends (which also corresponded to my fixture dates). Was really hoping they'd made it more flexible

[themodelcitizen]

Oh, having looked at the file, before you do that, uncheck "number of dates" that's currently set to 30. Yes, I think that might actually override everything else and just generate 30 dates using matchday rules as soon as it can, lol. I realize this doesn't assuage your concerns about obscure boxes being checked or unchecked

[themodelcitizen]

I'd also try getting rid of the "start" and "end" date since we're specifying all 30 in "dates" anyway

[scythian12]

Soooo, some results of some further testing and research

1) the number of dates was only on "accidentally, as I have put in a checkmark to see if it does anything, but its existence did not seem to alter anything in one way or another

2) When entering the break period by hand instead of referring to the fixture list, it suddenly is applied.

it is maybe somewhat suspicious that when referring to the fixture list, the dates are greyed out

Yet when entering the dates manually, they appear in the entry line...

This makes the break period work! The matches are evidently distributed by the program in the autumn and spring, but its a step in the right direction. In FM23, pulling dates from the date list worked without a hitch. By the way, this also suddenly fixes the match day issue, as in the matches are now magically on Sunday, as they are supposed to be. I am sure this is how the fickle Gods of FM intended this, for punishment of upstart Advanced Editor Users who do not fear their wrath and dare go ahead and use features in the editor as they seem to be meant to be used. How silly of them!

Then I also tried the method of not using start/end dates or breaks, but the "Dates" menu instead, with 30 entries

Then this happened

 

 

That is quite a lot of matchdays for the last day of the season you'll no doubt agree.

So time to test this with manually entered dates. How fun! I vow not to transgress the Gods of FM solemnly. Maybe I will sacrifice a lamb in their name or dance the rain dance or just get plain mad. Who knows?

 

Edited November 22, 2023 by scythian12

[scythian12]

 

Praise you, Azatoth, Hefnafael, Dur-Kudurri-Ushur, Yfnael and Snorri for your wisdom that guards the secrets to the mystical workings of the Sacred Advanced Editor! Maybe one day I shall be worthy to grasp just a droplet of your truly divine and eternal intellect and allowed to operate Thy Holy Applet.

 

[scythian12]

Thou art truly masterful, oh Gods!

Whence a New Date is added to the Dates of the Legendary Schedule Menu, the humble Advanced Editor User is given a short insight to the Full Workings of the Date Dialogue Menu.

Yet if in their unjust hybris the User sinfully ticks the blasphemous "Fixture Date" (please do not punish me for writing these words), their vain wish to utilize such a date shall be futile!

And oh Gods, you are veritably just in your punishment for these heinous efforts, as the Fixture Date (oh do not strike me down!) tick is now permanently set and cannot be removed! Only your true disciples who do not partake in the heretical usage of the F****** D**** list and who intend from the outset to use the pure Manual Date Entry box will be rewarded with the gift of a Correctly Working Custom Fixture Date List.

[scythian12]

PSA the matchdays only worked in the preseason schedule, but not for the actual fixtures. Then I have seen all club had matchday preferences set  (I am using the backbone of someone else's db).

[Wolf_pd]

29 minutes ago, scythian12 said:

PSA the matchdays only worked in the preseason schedule, but not for the actual fixtures. Then I have seen all club had matchday preferences set  (I am using the backbone of someone else's db).

And the matchday preferences overrides the fixture dates?

[themodelcitizen]

Under the competition flags make sure "don't use home match days" is selected in those cases.

That's odd that dates don't work if they call the fixture dates, I've had it working this year. Maybe something else is overriding it somewhere else. The lack of any matchdays until May makes me think they're being blocked, but I can't see how. If you're building off someone else's DB, I wonder if they're using a different "base year for dates" (not 2000) or something odd like that

Edited November 22, 2023 by themodelcitizen

[themodelcitizen]

Definitely get rid of everything under league schedule/general except "check for clashes with", and change that to "none" since you're specifying every date everywhere else. That "don't use home match days" flag will be important too since they all have them specified. And make sure "stop for international finals" is active and unchecked, the last download I can see it's active and checked. Obviously all this doesn't explain the long-ass break unless you've got a custom international tournament running all year too, but are important for scheduling

[scythian12]

I will answer all questions properly, but check this out -

A date entry (row one before the last) without a manual or fixture list entry and also no option to do either. The schedule interface is just buggy beyond belief.

[scythian12]

22 hours ago, Wolf_pd said:

And the matchday preferences overrides the fixture dates?

So a bit of explanation for this - I hopefully can be a bit more verbose and less obtuse in my explanations as well; it seems to me that the program getting hung up on basic details in the League Schedule tab could be inferred from how it scheduled matches. So whilst the weekday scheduling of the matches was not my main concern, it was a good indicator for which part of the setting up process the program struggles with.

When you do a test within the editor, there are two relevant tab below the competition for each year, 'Fixtures' and at the bottom 'Schedule'

Schedule is the theoretical setup for the season at the start, and each matchday is listed for a single day and time, the 'ideal' matchday for that particular match. This already takes into account (or so I believe) the 'Match Days' tab from League Schedule. I show screens for the database which works properly now.

Fixtures contains the actual matches when they have been played -and possibly moved by club preferences, clashes with international fixtures (enough of a break between Thu and Sat e. g.), stadium availability or TV dates-

There were two stages of fixing the file - the first one getting the basic workings of the League Schedule to at least do something useful, even if not the full intended effect. Before this first stage, in the Schedule tab in testing, it could be seen that matches were a) throughout the entirety of winter b) set for a Saturday per default. So neither 'Break Periods' nor 'Match Days' was working underneath 'League Schedule' - the 'General' bit maybe...

In my 'TSA" post, I referred to the fact that the program at least acknowledges my basic League Schedule settings, not getting hung up on any details there and properly using the start and finish date of the phase as well as the break periods and the Match Days feature, which did specify Sundays 16:00 for games. In the 'Schedule' tab under Testing, the matchdays appeared on Sundays, as opposed to Saturdays when it skipped the whole winter break.

However, when checking the 'Fixtures' tab underneath Testing, it was still holding the vast majority of games on Sat 15:00 and about 10 % of the games were moved to Sun 15:00, all earmarked with 'moved due to fixture clash'. This did my head properly in, as neither the Match Days, nor the TV Dates settings could budge this. So the program was using the "Match Days" for the basic Schedule, but it took me a while to figure out that the club settings were overriding this (does anyone know why on Earth they are a feature in the first place apart from shortening your life by a few hours in your Advanced Editor bug hunts?)

 

Edited November 23, 2023 by scythian12

[scythian12]

And now today the Program does pull the Dates specified in the Fixture Times correctly suddenly for some reason, the working file is attached... hence I feel ever closer to becoming mad / being gaslighted by the editor.

But to the neat trick of generating a 'Dates' entry without a manual or fixture list date:

1) Add a new blank entry

2) On the new entry, Do NOT click on the small tick in the left-hand side column below "date"

3) Click instead into one of the numeric entry fields for day, month or year in the manual box

4) In the big menu below "Row X selected", set the tick mark at "Fixture Date"

5) Enjoy your completely void Entry which contains nothing and cannot be changed!

 

Lux Fixture List trials.fmf

[Wolf_pd]

19 hours ago, scythian12 said:

And now today the Program does pull the Dates specified in the Fixture Times correctly suddenly for some reason, the working file is attached... hence I feel ever closer to becoming mad / being gaslighted by the editor.

Without irony, it feels like that sometimes.

[scythian12]

2 hours ago, Wolf_pd said:

Without irony, it feels like that sometimes.

I mean, the definition of madness is repeating the same actions expecting a different outcome. That is exactly what I did this time when I used the editor...