Input regarding the template tactics, primarily their effectiveness

[danej]

What are your experiences or opinions regarding the template tactics? I mean these, as shown in the pic: Control Possession, Gegenpress, Tiki-Taka, Vertical Tiki-Taka, Wing Play, Route One, Fluid Counter-attack, Direct Counter-attack, Catenaccio and Park the Bus.

 

I ask because I don't care much about tactics. Personally, I have never used anything but the template tactics, and I might never will. Subjectively I don't see a reason to. In my experience, I can pick a template tactic to be as succesful or unsuccesful as I wish.

 

I also ask because I probably don't want to spend the time trying out every single tactic extensively. I imagine that one needs to use a tactic for at least three months in order for the squad to gain full tactical familiarity so one can see how well the tactic actually works.

 

Anyway, here are my own input regarding the template tactics:

 

- Gegenpress. I have almost entirely used the 4-3-3 DM wide in FM23. In FM21 and 22 I used the 4-2-3-1. But quickly dumped it on FM23, didn't like that they switched the two central midfielders from CM's to DM's. The 4-3-3 DM wide just feels better. Also easier to recruit players for the CM rather than the DM position I feel. Anyway, all along my rather brief FM career (FM21-23), Gegenpress has been OP, as long as you rotate a lot. I have overperformed board expectations every single season I have used it, in spite of the very harsh save restrictions that I generally use in order to try and avoid too much boring success. Most time the overperformance has been massive. I love how the tactics look on the pitch. Physically intensive and imposing, in your face, attacking intent, plenty of chances and goals in both ends, especially in the opposition end. The only problem I have with Gegenpress is that it is OP. Too effective. Can become boring, success being a foregone conclusion.

 

- Tiki-Taka. I have only used this tactics (4-3-3 DM wide) in one save which is my current one. Have played four seasons with Sunderland. Performancewise it feels good. Not OP, not the opposite. I finished 14th, 15th, 4th and 5th in the Championship respectively, luckily and undeservedly getting promoted through the playoffs in season four. In some ways the tactic look beautiful with all the quick short passing. However, with time it also feels a little boring. Usually impotent. In total for the 46 x 4 league games, I have scored 210 goals and conceded 159. This averages 2.0 goals per game, 1.1 scored and 0.9 conceded. I don't like the lack of entertainment. Also, with time I don't like the consistently low crossing as per the instructions. It feels a bit monotonous.

 

- Route One. It has all along been my B tactics (4-3-3 DM wide). One that I only use if I am up by four goals, or three goals with less than 20 minutes to go. I use it to preserve fitness. Of all the template tactics it is one of the least physically demanding ones. It feels quite underpowered. I don't keep track but I feel like I concede at least three times as many goals than I score when using this tactics. Tactical familiary with it isn' great since it isn't my primary tactic so that could be part of the explanation that it seems underpowered. Anyway, it obviously also isn't the prettiest to look at. Plain football, lots of lumping the ball forward.

 

The rest of the tactics I have never used. I don't think I have much qualified input regarding them.

 

From my experience and what I have read, I would think the Gegenpress is the most effective/OP one of the template tactics. Vertical Tiki-Taka might be the second best. Interestingly, I guess this one is also the one that looks most like a Gegenpress which perhaps explains the effectiveness. But now I am speculating, I have never used this tactics myself.

 

I consider trying the Vertical Tiki-Taka one day. However, I am sceptical towards the "Narrow" instruction when in possesion. That might feel a bit boring and monotonous.

 

Anyway, any input highly appreciated.

 

Edit: I might try the Control Possession one day. Could be an interesting option.

 

Edited April 9, 2023 by danej

[CARRERA]

2 hours ago, danej said:

I consider trying the Vertical Tiki-Taka one day. However, I am sceptical towards the "Narrow" instruction when in possesion. That might feel a bit boring and monotonous.

I’m not 100% into the presets, but playing narrow can be very attractive, especially if there are players who still create width. You will see a lot of combination play of your team.

[Cloud9]

9 hours ago, danej said:

What are your experiences or opinions regarding the template tactics? I mean these, as shown in the pic: Control Possession, Gegenpress, Tiki-Taka, Vertical Tiki-Taka, Wing Play, Route One, Fluid Counter-attack, Direct Counter-attack, Catenaccio and Park the Bus.

 

I ask because I don't care much about tactics. Personally, I have never used anything but the template tactics, and I might never will. Subjectively I don't see a reason to. In my experience, I can pick a template tactic to be as succesful or unsuccesful as I wish.

 

I also ask because I probably don't want to spend the time trying out every single tactic extensively. I imagine that one needs to use a tactic for at least three months in order for the squad to gain full tactical familiarity so one can see how well the tactic actually works.

 

Anyway, here are my own input regarding the template tactics:

 

- Gegenpress. I have almost entirely used the 4-3-3 DM wide in FM23. In FM21 and 22 I used the 4-2-3-1. But quickly dumped it on FM23, didn't like that they switched the two central midfielders from CM's to DM's. The 4-3-3 DM wide just feels better. Also easier to recruit players for the CM rather than the DM position I feel. Anyway, all along my rather brief FM career (FM21-23), Gegenpress has been OP, as long as you rotate a lot. I have overperformed board expectations every single season I have used it, in spite of the very harsh save restrictions that I generally use in order to try and avoid too much boring success. Most time the overperformance has been massive. I love how the tactics look on the pitch. Physically intensive and imposing, in your face, attacking intent, plenty of chances and goals in both ends, especially in the opposition end. The only problem I have with Gegenpress is that it is OP. Too effective. Can become boring, success being a foregone conclusion.

 

- Tiki-Taka. I have only used this tactics (4-3-3 DM wide) in one save which is my current one. Have played four seasons with Sunderland. Performancewise it feels good. Not OP, not the opposite. I finished 14th, 15th, 4th and 5th in the Championship respectively, luckily and undeservedly getting promoted through the playoffs in season four. In some ways the tactic look beautiful with all the quick short passing. However, with time it also feels a little boring. Usually impotent. In total for the 46 x 4 league games, I have scored 210 goals and conceded 159. This averages 2.0 goals per game, 1.1 scored and 0.9 conceded. I don't like the lack of entertainment. Also, with time I don't like the consistently low crossing as per the instructions. It feels a bit monotonous.

 

- Route One. It has all along been my B tactics (4-3-3 DM wide). One that I only use if I am up by four goals, or three goals with less than 20 minutes to go. I use it to preserve fitness. Of all the template tactics it is one of the least physically demanding ones. It feels quite underpowered. I don't keep track but I feel like I concede at least three times as many goals than I score when using this tactics. Tactical familiary with it isn' great since it isn't my primary tactic so that could be part of the explanation that it seems underpowered. Anyway, it obviously also isn't the prettiest to look at. Plain football, lots of lumping the ball forward.

 

The rest of the tactics I have never used. I don't think I have much qualified input regarding them.

 

From my experience and what I have read, I would think the Gegenpress is the most effective/OP one of the template tactics. Vertical Tiki-Taka might be the second best. Interestingly, I guess this one is also the one that looks most like a Gegenpress which perhaps explains the effectiveness. But now I am speculating, I have never used this tactics myself.

 

I consider trying the Vertical Tiki-Taka one day. However, I am sceptical towards the "Narrow" instruction when in possesion. That might feel a bit boring and monotonous.

 

Anyway, any input highly appreciated.

 

Edit: I might try the Control Possession one day. Could be an interesting option.

 

This thread might be helpful for you  

[danej]

2 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

This thread might be helpful for you  

Just reread the thread, see that I have read it before. Unfortunately I don't think there was much help there. Only three of the preset tactics are being discussed to a decent degree, Gegenpress, Vertical Tiki-Taka and Fluid Counter-attack. And only the discussion regarding the fluid CA tactics was useful, adding to what I typed in the OP.

[danej]

To narrow it down and on further reflection: At this point in time I think that the only ones of the preset tactics that I will consider using is Vertical Tiki-Taka, Control Possession and Wing Play (besides reverting back to Gegenpress). All 4-3-3 DM wide, because I have playing five at the back and because I don't like how there now usually seems to be two DM's instead of CM's in the preset 4-2-3-1 formations.

 

Any thoughts on Control Possession and Wing Play (both 4-3-3- DM wide)? As mentioned, Vertical Tiki-Taka is well descibed in the thread that Cloud9 mentioned, guess there is not much more to say about that tactic.

[danej]

Related to this thread I just had an idea that I might use - to always use the preset tactic that the existing ass man at the club has as his primary tactic (I always delegate everything staff related to the DoF anyway as part of my save restrictions, so I don't think that the ass man has ever been changed in one of my saves).

 

That could be an interesting way to try out new tactics. And at the same time a way to prevent to much success. At least too much easy, boring succes, at least if it a style of non-league to legend save where you switch clubs if you get an offer from a bigger club.

[Cloud9]

1 hour ago, danej said:

Related to this thread I just had an idea that I might use - to always use the preset tactic that the existing ass man at the club has as his primary tactic (I always delegate everything staff related to the DoF anyway as part of my save restrictions, so I don't think that the ass man has ever been changed in one of my saves).

 

That could be an interesting way to try out new tactics. And at the same time a way to prevent to much success. At least too much easy, boring succes, at least if it a style of non-league to legend save where you switch clubs if you get an offer from a bigger club.

What works best for you will depend on:

A. what type of football you want to watch your team play

B. What type of players you have in your squad (for example: route one football is great w/a TF at low levels of the football pyramid).

 

I would ignore trying to play optimally, or worry about what's most overpowered. Yes you can exploit the game, but  in my experience saves are the most enjoyable when you set your own parameters on what you can/cannot do and what you'd like to accomplish. 

All of the preset tactics can work and are great places to build your own tactic from. If tactics arn't your thing, it still might be worthwhile putting together a formation you'd like your team to play at the start of your save and then not worrying about it after. If you want to purely rely on a preset, figure out if you want to play attacking or defensive football first and go from there.

 

Edited April 9, 2023 by Cloud9

[danej]

9 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

What works best for you will depend on:

A. what type of football you want to watch your team play

B. What type of players you have in your squad (for example: route one football is great w/a TF at low levels of the football pyramid).

 

I would ignore trying to play optimally, or worry about what's most overpowered. Yes you can exploit the game, but  in my experience saves are the most enjoyable when you set your own parameters on what you can/cannot do and what you'd like to accomplish. 

All of the preset tactics can work and are great places to build your own tactic from. If tactics arn't your thing, it still might be worthwhile putting together a formation you'd like your team to play at the start of your save and then not worrying about it after. If you want to purely rely on a preset, figure out if you want to play attacking or defensive football first and go from there.

 

I guess I am still not entirely certain about how I would want to play. However, a few things I do know:

- I generally love the Gegenpress. I love how it looks on the pitch. The only problem I have is that it can be too successful. But who knows, perhaps I can come up with even harsher save restrictions on other aspects of the game instead of having to resort to abandoning a tactic that I basically like a lot.

- I have developed some scepticism towards the Tiki-Taka over the four seasons that I have used it. It is fun and beautiful and some ways. And it is middle of the road performancewise which is a plus. However, it is rather defensive, few chances and goals in both ends. And the consistently low crossing annoys me as well.

 

I get your point regarding choosing a tactic depending on the squad you have. However, I feel it works well the other way around as well - if you pick a tactic and recruit accordingly, you will most likely have a squad that can play that tactic within 1-2 windows if not sooner.

 

By the way, I think you are spot on regarding the point that it is important what I like to see on the pitch (point A). This is the main reason that I have become a bit fed up with the Tiki-Taka. This point is essential I think. This point is also why I probably wouldn't consider other tactics than Gegenpress, Vertical Tiki-Taka, Wing Play and Control Possession. The others are probably too defensive or ugly for my taste.

Edited April 10, 2023 by danej

[danej]

I have just used the preset Vertical Tiki-Taka (VTT) 4-3-3 DM wide for most of a season (with Man Utd, but don't think it matters much which club it is). Here is my five cents on that tactic.

 

I don't like it much. I will probably abandon it for good.

 

It feels much like the vanilla Tiki-Taka - has it's good and bad side. I like it performance wise. It isn't OP, neither the opposite. There are many more chances and goals per game than the vanilla Tiki-Taka which is a plus.

 

However, like the vanilla Tiki-Taka I find the VTT a bit boring to look at. It is rigid, monotonous, Specifically, I don't like the very narrow offensive play style and the complete lack of high crosses, and barely any breakthrougs on the wings.

 

So for me the summary so far on the tactics that I have used enough to have an opinion on them:

 

Tiki-Taka + Vertical Tiki-Taka: A bit boring, not what I like to see on the pitch. Not like, although they have their good sides.

Gegenpress (also 4-3-3 DM wide): I generally love that tactic and how it looks on the pitch. The only problem is that it is too strong, somewhat OP, success can be a foregone conclusion.

 

I might try the preset 4-3-3 Control Possession or Wing Play next. Don't think I want to try any of the other presets extensively, they seem to ugly or defensive for my taste.

 

If anyone have any input regarding the preset 4-3-3 Control Possession or Wing Play, please let me know.

[herne79]

One thing to bear in mind when using these preset tactics - they’re not, and never have been, designed to be used out of the box.  

Their creation was only ever meant as a starting point, something for us to adapt as we see fit based on match performance and the players at our disposal.  The context can also be important, for example using one of the more defensive presets may be a bad idea from the get go but may be more beneficial to use for the last 10 minutes of a close match when hanging onto a lead.  The different presets will also require more or less adapting and sometimes they’ll work without many (or any) changes.  

So test them for sure but don’t be surprised if some work better than others without making changes because that isn’t what they were designed to do 👍.

[danej]

26 minutes ago, herne79 said:

One thing to bear in mind when using these preset tactics - they’re not, and never have been, designed to be used out of the box.  

Their creation was only ever meant as a starting point, something for us to adapt as we see fit based on match performance and the players at our disposal.  The context can also be important, for example using one of the more defensive presets may be a bad idea from the get go but may be more beneficial to use for the last 10 minutes of a close match when hanging onto a lead.  The different presets will also require more or less adapting and sometimes they’ll work without many (or any) changes.  

So test them for sure but don’t be surprised if some work better than others without making changes because that isn’t what they were designed to do 👍.

Yes I know that they are far from perfect. And that is one of the reasons that I like to use them. It is easy to use an OP tactic, but I don't like too much succes. Furthermore, I don't like tactics much and prefer to not spend much time on it.

That being said, I am beginning to consider to "make my own tactics", at least to a small extend - taking a preset tactic, making minor tweaks to it so that I get what I am looking for.

For example I love the preset 4-3-3 DM Gegenpress in pretty much every way, except for it being semi-OP. I could try some minor tweaks to it in order to make the tactic worse and less OP (a bit funny and paradoxical I know, making a tactic worse on purpose). Specifically I could make the tactic slightly less high pressing. Guess that is why that tactic is OP, for some reason high pressing abuses the match engine and overachievement is almost guaranteed.

Edited April 21, 2023 by danej