Question about training, don´t your non-starters train?

[AurioDK]

In a tight schedule where you play 2-3 games a week there is very little intensive training going on, most of it is light technical training, match preparation and bonding. Having a first squad of 20+ players still means some won´t see first team football, don´t these players train normally? Since there is no second schedule for "non starters" I am thinking not.

My last season was a bit weird as I was very successful but noticed some players not improving much in in spite of having about 25-30 games that season, there were periods were they simply weren´t training regularly as the schedule didn´t allow for it. If you have match preparation and technical training for 3 months or more than those who aren´t playing as often simply don´t improve.

In real life unused subs and other non-starters have different training schedules.

[mattylamb]

I suppose you would add more training sessions than the game sets by default, but then give players who playing the games days off here and there?

[AurioDK]

2 hours ago, mattylamb said:

I suppose you would add more training sessions than the game sets by default, but then give players who playing the games days off here and there?

 

That really doesn´t work, when you have 2/3 days apart between each game for two months straight there is no room to involve any sort of physical training, it´s match preparation, rest, restitution and perhaps a single or two light technical training sessions. If I give my players off how are they going to prepare for the next game?

Allowing us to move all non starters to U23 or reserve team training schedules would be a far easier fix with the option to "make available for first squad".

[Dingusen]

Yes this is a huge gap in FM's training features that I can't believe hasn't been fixed. Been this way like forever.

[lfds89]

On 12/02/2021 at 03:32, AurioDK said:

In real life unused subs and other non-starters have different training schedules.

Not a fact. Some might train with reserve team or u23 on match day, but not much more than that. If you want to prepare your starters for the next match, you include the whole squad on that type of training. They all see the videos, they all execute strategies on the pitch, prepare set-pieces, etc.

What might happen and doesn't happen on FM is partial rest, for instance. Instead of skipping all of the training sessions scheduled for the day after the match, starters might rest for one session and do one after. Even this, don't know if it's not taken into account on the rest settings.

[gio]

Could you not achieve this by including sessions on the day after matches (in addition to recovery/review) and then right click the players that started the game and choose “no pitch or gym work”? That way the starting XI get the benefit of recovery and review but are exempt from the heavier training. The same could apply to training on the day before matches. It’s not ideal, but it’s a slight workaround perhaps. 

Edited February 22, 2021 by gio

[AurioDK]

17 hours ago, lfds89 said:

Not a fact. Some might train with reserve team or u23 on match day, but not much more than that. If you want to prepare your starters for the next match, you include the whole squad on that type of training. They all see the videos, they all execute strategies on the pitch, prepare set-pieces, etc.

What might happen and doesn't happen on FM is partial rest, for instance. Instead of skipping all of the training sessions scheduled for the day after the match, starters might rest for one session and do one after. Even this, don't know if it's not taken into account on the rest settings.

 

I trained the Juniors at OB for 6 seasons, the non-starters always showed up on Mondays for high physical intensity training, this is also how the seniors were coached, this is done to bridge the physical gap between starters and potential subs.  Found an article explaining this, you can skip to conclusion.

https://www.johansports.com/how-do-you-keep-non-starting-players-fit/

Training sessions also included intensive technical training midweek with training matches where the rules were different between the two teams. It could f.ex. be that the first team were not allowed to tackle (only press) and they had to move the ball on after first touch, this is just an example as the rules varied.

 

Gio is right though, with the right micro management you can actually rest players after a match and designate an intensive schedule the day after a game for everyone else, it´s a hassle though but I have done it before.

 

[Guest]

53 minutes ago, AurioDK said:

 

I trained the Juniors at OB for 6 seasons, the non-starters always showed up on Mondays for high physical intensity training, this is also how the seniors were coached, this is done to bridge the physical gap between starters and potential subs.  Found an article explaining this, you can skip to conclusion.

https://www.johansports.com/how-do-you-keep-non-starting-players-fit/

Training sessions also included intensive technical training midweek with training matches where the rules were different between the two teams. It could f.ex. be that the first team were not allowed to tackle (only press) and they had to move the ball on after first touch, this is just an example as the rules varied.

 

Gio is right though, with the right micro management you can actually rest players after a match and designate an intensive schedule the day after a game for everyone else, it´s a hassle though but I have done it before.

 

You can yes but Gio was saying the starting XI get the benefit of recovery and the review which they wouldn't if they are put on no pitch or gym work or am I mistaken?

[AurioDK]

1 hour ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

You can yes but Gio was saying the starting XI get the benefit of recovery and the review which they wouldn't if they are put on no pitch or gym work or am I mistaken?

 

I don´t know, always used the "rest 1 day" option, could be I should try the "no pitch or gym work" option instead for recovery. I never have reviews the day after a match anyway, they do seem to rest well though even if they don´t get the recovery.

[gio]

3 hours ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

You can yes but Gio was saying the starting XI get the benefit of recovery and the review which they wouldn't if they are put on no pitch or gym work or am I mistaken?

That's my understanding: after searching the forums, \i found a post from an SI employee that said recovery and match review/preview don't count as pitch or gym work.

So I think if you select your starting XI exemptthem from pitch and gym work, make a schedule like Recover, Review, Match Practice on the day after match day, then the players who didn't play will have an extra match practice, while the selected players won't.

Note: I think you can do this automatically: if you go to one of the screens in the training section, there is a section where you can choose when "no pitch or gym work" should be automatically used, e.g. if a player's condition is red or yellow, you could set them to do no pitch or gym work.

[Guest]

47 minutes ago, gio said:

That's my understanding: after searching the forums, \i found a post from an SI employee that said recovery and match review/preview don't count as pitch or gym work.

So I think if you select your starting XI exemptthem from pitch and gym work, make a schedule like Recover, Review, Match Practice on the day after match day, then the players who didn't play will have an extra match practice, while the selected players won't.

Note: I think you can do this automatically: if you go to one of the screens in the training section, there is a section where you can choose when "no pitch or gym work" should be automatically used, e.g. if a player's condition is red or yellow, you could set them to do no pitch or gym work.

Thanks for the response, that is interesting and very helpful.

Edit: I think the automatic thing might be an issue because some players who have played the day before a rest day show up with a solid green heart despite being high risk just after the game.

Edited February 23, 2021 by Crazy_Ivan

[AurioDK]

2 hours ago, gio said:

That's my understanding: after searching the forums, \i found a post from an SI employee that said recovery and match review/preview don't count as pitch or gym work.

So I think if you select your starting XI exemptthem from pitch and gym work, make a schedule like Recover, Review, Match Practice on the day after match day, then the players who didn't play will have an extra match practice, while the selected players won't.

Note: I think you can do this automatically: if you go to one of the screens in the training section, there is a section where you can choose when "no pitch or gym work" should be automatically used, e.g. if a player's condition is red or yellow, you could set them to do no pitch or gym work.

Hmmm, I did the "rest" after match day trick in FM 20. Just tried it  in FM21and after 3-4 games my entire team started playing like crap, would need to have this confirmed by someone else but I don´t think it´s viable to set any training the day after a match. It could just be a weird coincidence but it´s the first time in 20 seasons I experienced such a breakdown in team effort, everyone was playing blindfolded.

I stopped and things went back to normal, it could be something else that coincided with my testing, I have lots of injuries currently so it could be that as well ... or the choice of captain, my first 4 captains are out injured.

[gio]

56 minutes ago, AurioDK said:

Hmmm, I did the "rest" after match day trick in FM 20. Just tried it  in FM21and after 3-4 games my entire team started playing like crap, would need to have this confirmed by someone else but I don´t think it´s viable to set any training the day after a match. It could just be a weird coincidence but it´s the first time in 20 seasons I experienced such a breakdown in team effort, everyone was playing blindfolded.

I stopped and things went back to normal, it could be something else that coincided with my testing, I have lots of injuries currently so it could be that as well ... or the choice of captain, my first 4 captains are out injured.

Did you choose "No pitch or Gym work", or "rest"? Did you notice if the player's match sharpness or attributes were affected?

[AurioDK]

59 minutes ago, gio said:

Did you choose "No pitch or Gym work", or "rest"? Did you notice if the player's match sharpness or attributes were affected?

Everything looked normal, I can´t really put my finger on it. I decided to try something lighter like preparing for the next match the day after a match instead of general training, that has gone much better. Then I add one or two general training sessions in the two days I have available. I never did the match review, so it´s time to start I guess.

I checked for other odd stuff and it all happened after a very weird 10-0 PL victory, could be complacency in the following matches ..... this is however hard to know.