Player relationship page

[Neb]

Hi,

I've just noticed that there are some differences between players attributes and the relationship page. It seems to count the relationship page when it builds the team dynamics, so it does seem to make a difference. 

Example below. - model professional, yet amber for professionalism. Morale is red, yet at the bottom of the page it is also superb.

Or am I missing something??

Cheers

PS. I love the feature, it adds loads to the squad building part of the game. I love how it slowly adapts through peer pressure players that don't conform. Nice one!

[Louie Silvani]

Hi Neb, do you have a save with this example? Would love to take a look at it.

 

[Neb]

10 hours ago, Louie Silvani said:

Hi Neb, do you have a save with this example? Would love to take a look at it.

 

The link in that post no longer works. Happy to upload save, im just not sure how!

Just had another look at the issue, the players that are non-influential affect the professionalism team dynamic, but only the negative ones (red). I have non-influential players that are professional that are not in the list (nor is it shown on their own relationship page)

The workrate team dynamic has both positive and negative of non influential players. 

The determination team dynamic only has the team leader in it, has no other players. I do have a non-influential 'relentless' player that is not shown. 

The morale dynamic has a few influential players and one non-influential. Some of the morale effects are not correct, ie every member of my squad is happy (we just won the league) but the team dynamic is showing some players are full negative and as a result team morale is classed as a D, despite not a single player being unhappy in the entire squad. 

The loyalty dynamic has mainly influential players and one non influential. Difficult to tell if this is correct.

Its difficult to know if the team dynamic is supposed to count the entire team in the team dynamic, or whether it's supposed to weight the rating of influential players? There are definitely issues as it isn't consistent between the different dynamics, the player relationship page or the values on the attribute page (ie morale)

[Louie Silvani]

11 hours ago, Neb said:

The link in that post no longer works. Happy to upload save, im just not sure how!

Just had another look at the issue, the players that are non-influential affect the professionalism team dynamic, but only the negative ones (red). I have non-influential players that are professional that are not in the list (nor is it shown on their own relationship page)

The workrate team dynamic has both positive and negative of non influential players. 

The determination team dynamic only has the team leader in it, has no other players. I do have a non-influential 'relentless' player that is not shown. 

The morale dynamic has a few influential players and one non-influential. Some of the morale effects are not correct, ie every member of my squad is happy (we just won the league) but the team dynamic is showing some players are full negative and as a result team morale is classed as a D, despite not a single player being unhappy in the entire squad. 

The loyalty dynamic has mainly influential players and one non influential. Difficult to tell if this is correct.

Its difficult to know if the team dynamic is supposed to count the entire team in the team dynamic, or whether it's supposed to weight the rating of influential players? There are definitely issues as it isn't consistent between the different dynamics, the player relationship page or the values on the attribute page (ie morale)

Sorry, wrong link this is the correct one!

 

[Neb]

18 minutes ago, Louie Silvani said:

Sorry, wrong link this is the correct one!

 

I'm still unable to open the link, the connection times out. I am also unable to upload via the game as it can't connect to the server. Is everything ok at your end?? Cheers

[Louie Silvani]

7 minutes ago, Neb said:

I'm still unable to open the link, the connection times out. I am also unable to upload via the game as it can't connect to the server. Is everything ok at your end?? Cheers

Yes sorry, there is a temporary outage, I'll let you know as soon as it is back up if that is OK?

[Neb]

2 hours ago, Louie Silvani said:

Yes sorry, there is a temporary outage, I'll let you know as soon as it is back up if that is OK?

I've just uploaded the save file for this issue.

Cheers

[Marc Vaughan]

On 19/01/2021 at 08:35, Neb said:

Hi,

I've just noticed that there are some differences between players attributes and the relationship page. It seems to count the relationship page when it builds the team dynamics, so it does seem to make a difference. 

Example below. - model professional, yet amber for professionalism. Morale is red, yet at the bottom of the page it is also superb.

Or am I missing something??

Cheers

PS. I love the feature, it adds loads to the squad building part of the game. I love how it slowly adapts through peer pressure players that don't conform. Nice one!

Just to explain this in passing ...

The reason that the player doesn't have a positive effect from his professionalism is that he's a youngster without enough weight in the squad to contribute heavily to other players within it. He's a model professional but is still young.

Imagine the jaded old pro who is a bit of a fiery character who has been there and done that, then you have a 16 year old kid who is a model professional ... is the old pro really going to notice the example he's setting?

(as the kid ages and becomes more established you'll find that rises)

I can probably make the game explain this better - perhaps my giving more information if you click on each of the items?

PS - The effect he has on the squad overall for morale is 'red' (ie. negative) but he is actually happy at present. (which is what the morale at the bottom shows) I'd take this to mean he is a bit of a moaning ninny and tends towards being negative and critical about others (basically he is like the 'perfect brother' who always does right and nit-picks when you make a mistake).

[Neb]

1 hour ago, Marc Vaughan said:

Just to explain this in passing ...

The reason that the player doesn't have a positive effect from his professionalism is that he's a youngster without enough weight in the squad to contribute heavily to other players within it. He's a model professional but is still young.

Imagine the jaded old pro who is a bit of a fiery character who has been there and done that, then you have a 16 year old kid who is a model professional ... is the old pro really going to notice the example he's setting?

(as the kid ages and becomes more established you'll find that rises)

I can probably make the game explain this better - perhaps my giving more information if you click on each of the items?

PS - The effect he has on the squad overall for morale is 'red' (ie. negative) but he is actually happy at present. (which is what the morale at the bottom shows) I'd take this to mean he is a bit of a moaning ninny and tends towards being negative and critical about others (basically he is like the 'perfect brother' who always does right and nit-picks when you make a mistake).

I'm not sure I understand! The young players that have no-influence are affecting the team dynamic for work rate but not for professionalism. Is that intentional?

The morale is a bit confusing in that there are two indicators, both called morale that indicate different things? Is that right? A happy player could be negatively affecting the team and conversely an extremely unhappy player could have a positive effect on the team's morale? Or am I misunderstanding something?

I'd have thought it would just be the players morale multiplied by a weighting factor related to their influence, might just be the way it is displayed is confusing me. To me a red arrow indicates a negative effect, where as what I think you mean is that it's a small effect. Is that right?

Edited January 22, 2021 by Neb

[Neb]

A season later, the same player has a greater effect towards the team dynamic for professionalism which makes sense as he's now a 'team leader' the effect he has on team work rate and morale is now worse than when he was a young fringe player (is that because he's now influencing other players more but negatively?)

I sympathise, It's quite complicated to describe the mechanics in game, on a small screen. But I think I'm getting there....

I still don't get why he's having an extremely negative effect on the team dynamic for morale despite being a team leader and having good morale? (Unless it's because he's a right lazy ****!)

Edited January 22, 2021 by Neb

[Marc Vaughan]

13 minutes ago, Neb said:

I still don't get why he's having an extremely negative effect on the team dynamic for morale despite being a team leader and having good morale? (Unless it's because he's a right lazy ****!)

The reason he has a negative effect on morale could be one of two things:

• He's just that sort of 'grounded' player - someone who is consistent and doesn't get carried away, but also doesn't like others to either. Roy Keane was like this in real-life, always tenacious and determined but even when winning he used to be critical of his team-mates and cajole them to try harder. It's a useful trait ... but not something which leads to chirpy happy relationships with others
• His personality differs from the rest of the squad hugely - a professional player in amongst unprofessional players.

I expect its the first of these as its a common problem with the 'model professionals' ... there isn't a 'perfect personality' really which works for everything either in life or in the game, not everyone will want to be your friend etc.

Quote

I sympathise, It's quite complicated to describe the mechanics in game, on a small screen. But I think I'm getting there....

Thanks - I try and make things as easy to pick up as possible, but I do tend to try and engineer realistic and interesting mechanics, your feedback is really useful in allowing me to see where we're not communicating things clearly enough (and I'm thinking about potential solutions for next year).

[Neb]

1 minute ago, Marc Vaughan said:

The reason he has a negative effect on morale could be one of two things:

• He's just that sort of 'grounded' player - someone who is consistent and doesn't get carried away, but also doesn't like others to either. Roy Keane was like this in real-life, always tenacious and determined but even when winning he used to be critical of his team-mates and cajole them to try harder. It's a useful trait ... but not something which leads to chirpy happy relationships with others
• His personality differs from the rest of the squad hugely - a professional player in amongst unprofessional players.

Thanks - I try and make things as easy to pick up as possible, but I do tend to try and engineer realistic and interesting mechanics, your feedback is really useful in allowing me to see where we're not communicating things clearly enough (and I'm thinking about potential solutions for next year).

It probably doesn't help with people (me!) trying to understand to the mechanics behind the GUI. I'm an engineer, so I'm driven to try to understand how things work.

I think a pop up on each personality type explaining how this might effect the player/team would be good. I had to google relentless as I wasn't sure whether it was a positive or negative personality. (I guess it could be both depending on the rest of the team)

Is there any possibility of additional news items, coach or player feedback to highlight some of these personality effects on the team? For example, 'player xx and yy as senior players have come to you with concerns about the conduct/training/professionalism/work rate of player zz as it's having a negative effect on the team's performance / desire to work as a team / loyalty / training / morale, etc'. With options to attempt to placate, resolve (mentor), ignore or force said player to change.

I love the direction FMM has taken this year. It does make for a very interesting game, dynamics constantly shifting as players age/drift in and out of the team. Young players coming through the ranks, performing well but once becoming senior players having bad effects on the team as a whole. Selling a couple of aging players only to realise they were the only ones holding the team together, etc. 

[Marc Vaughan]

23 minutes ago, Neb said:

It probably doesn't help with people (me!) trying to understand to the mechanics behind the GUI. I'm an engineer, so I'm driven to try to understand how things work.

If that's a software engineer - we're looking for people ... just saying

Quote

I think a pop up on each personality type explaining how this might effect the player/team would be good. I had to google relentless as I wasn't sure whether it was a positive or negative personality. (I guess it could be both depending on the rest of the team)

Yeah most personalities have upsides and downsides as in real-life ... a relentless player is Determined and Ambitious (and can also be somewhat unsporting, but not always).

That can help him within the game somewhat, but make him problematic in terms of fitting in with others and keeping happy at times.

Quote

Is there any possibility of additional news items, coach or player feedback to highlight some of these personality effects on the team? For example, 'player xx and yy as senior players have come to you with concerns about the conduct/training/professionalism/work rate of player zz as it's having a negative effect on the team's performance / desire to work as a team / loyalty / training / morale, etc'. With options to attempt to placate, resolve (mentor), ignore or force said player to change.

I love the direction FMM has taken this year. It does make for a very interesting game, dynamics constantly shifting as players age/drift in and out of the team. Young players coming through the ranks, performing well but once becoming senior players having bad effects on the team as a whole. Selling a couple of aging players only to realise they were the only ones holding the team together, etc. 

With regards to the news - yes, that sort of thing is very much planned potentially for future games .. with new features I tend to put them in and let them gestate for a while before moving on and enhancing them ... this allows me to garner feedback from people and see if they like the concept and where they'd like it to head if they do (generally I'm lucky and people seem to like the plan I have plotted out, but I try not to get over-confident as everyone makes mistakes from time to time).

Glad you're enjoying the game

[StephenCronin]

So, it never really made sense to me why someone with good individual morale would be having a negative effect on team morale, but after reading that, I think I've got it. They may be a right a-hole that brings everybody else down, even though they themselves are quite happy! 😄 That actually makes perfect sense.

[Neb]

In the context of the screenshots above, I have a moderately professional and very hard working team, the player in the screenshot is a model professional, but also a very lazy player which would explain why his morale is good but his effect on the team morale is negative. 

That does make sense to me after Marc's explanation.

Since he's one of my most expensive players, but a little inconsistent I will try to offload him in the next transfer window. In previous versions of the game I'd have hung onto him and probably not understood the impact he was having on the team. 

I like this aspect, if you rush young players into the first team without giving them time to fix their flaws they might be good in the short term, but bad longterm. Nurturing them and developing personalities before they become leading players makes sense.

@Marc Vaughan

More tools or ways to understand and improve personality traits would be good. Something I've fallen foul of for most of my young players in this version, is loaning them out while they are still being mentored.

It would be good to have a warning in the impending loan news item that "player X is still being mentored by player Y, are you sure you'd like to send them on loan?"

I've missed out on most opportunities to mould young players personality as the mentoring cannot be restarted on conclusion of the loan. Which lots of young players it's quite laborious to check who is mentoring who before accepting a loan.

Cheers!

[Marc Vaughan]

1 hour ago, Neb said:

More tools or ways to understand and improve personality traits would be good. Something I've fallen foul of for most of my young players in this version, is loaning them out while they are still being mentored.

A couple of things to explain in case people weren't aware:

1. Giving youngsters huge contracts early on in their careers can give them more negative personality traits - particularly arrogance, laziness and suchlike.
2. If you mentor a player they will often adopt some of the personality traits of their mentor if things go well (so you change personalities in this way).
3. If you talk to players then you can improve their personalities ... however, if you praise people when they don't deserve it they can also pick up negative traits.
4. The overall character of the squad will influence the personalities of young players as they mature. If you have a professional squad then youngsters will be encouraged to be professional etc.

I agree that improving feedback in this area would be good and its something I'll be looking at moving forward.

Hope this helps,

Marc

[zoiks]

This is all very interesting stuff. It adds an extra deep layer for young player development for those who are finding matches quite easy to win.

[José-Manuel Malfleury]

@Neb
Heheh the screenshot in the opening post screams "drive this guy to the airport and put him in the first plane to anywhere"!

Well, maybe I've become a bit too dynamics-obsessed.

On 22/01/2021 at 16:13, Neb said:

I love the direction FMM has taken this year. It does make for a very interesting game, dynamics constantly shifting as players age/drift in and out of the team. Young players coming through the ranks, performing well but once becoming senior players having bad effects on the team as a whole. Selling a couple of aging players only to realise they were the only ones holding the team together, etc. 

Completely agree, it's all I always wanted and felt was missing in FM. It brings a lot of "human" substance to the game. Our Tamagochis now really need love.

I especially like the way Loyalty builds over time (from my experience players begin to impact it positively after 4-5 years at the club, and only if they are Influential/Leaders. Even the Ambitious end up helping with it. So if we buy better players all the time, we never get a loyal squad, as that's both 100% fair and a great challenge.

On 22/01/2021 at 16:13, Neb said:

I think a pop up on each personality type explaining how this might effect the player/team would be good.

I agree but I like that devs tried to make things hinted more than explained. (I agree it's sometimes confusing or even almost incoherent, especially the Moral thing you pointed)

But I love that players don't always reveal their game straight away. We have all seen in real life people who present their best face when they join a group, then progressively drop the mask and reveal their toxicity as they become more important. In FMM 21 I saw Professional players switch to Ambitious (and wreck the dressing room Loyalty/Mood) after a larger club tried to buy them. I both hated and loved that, like if you suddenly noticed that someone you love has grown vampire teeth and looks at you a funny way.

On the other hand here's my young goalie one year ago (Status: Other), and now that he his Influential

[José-Manuel Malfleury]

(Couldn't find how to type below the screenshot so double-post)

So this goalkeeper is a great surprise and even if I can find a better one now this guy is here to stay. And I like the fact it was a surprise.

On 23/01/2021 at 17:39, Marc Vaughan said:

Giving youngsters huge contracts early on in their careers can give them more negative personality traits - particularly arrogance, laziness and suchlike

Oooooohhhh I just celebrated our accession to Premier League with an array of new contracts (all under 10k £/week though). I hope I didn't waste the best youngsters... back to greedy mode it is then I guess. If they moan I'll let them know that you said it was for their own good.

[Marc Vaughan]

Really random question - what device are you running upon as I notice there is a small scrollbar on the very right of that page and I thought I'd fixed all those (it's a fairly complex page and gave me no end of headaches to lay out when I made it).

PS - That keeper is an awesome influence on your team, I always love it when someone comes through the squad like that myself

[José-Manuel Malfleury]

^^

Samsung J7 Max, but the reason probably is that I have not updated to the latest patch. I was afraid it would break my saves (more hours into it than I care to admit..) If you tell me it won't, I can update and tell if the scrollbar went away.

And yes the GK is great influence, also the fact he only has 3/5 stars of potential is a good illustration of how dynamics increased a lot the number of interesting decisions we have to make about squad building.

Since we're here I'd have a related question: except for the occasional slacking scoundrel, most youngsters from my club's youth system seem to be have Professional personalities. Is it because the squad dynamic is rated A in Prof? In previous FMs popular wisdom had it that the Head of Youth Development's personality was influencing regen's. Is there something similar in FMM 21?

Edited January 29, 2021 by José-Manuel Malfleury
sillyness

[Marc Vaughan]

3 hours ago, José-Manuel Malfleury said:

^^

Samsung J7 Max, but the reason probably is that I have not updated to the latest patch. I was afraid it would break my saves (more hours into it than I care to admit..) If you tell me it won't, I can update and tell if the scrollbar went away.

And yes the GK is great influence, also the fact he only has 3/5 stars of potential is a good illustration of how dynamics increased a lot the number of interesting decisions we have to make about squad building.

Since we're here I'd have a related question: except for the occasional slacking scoundrel, most youngsters from my club's youth system seem to be have Professional personalities. Is it because the squad dynamic is rated A in Prof? In previous FMs popular wisdom had it that the Head of Youth Development's personality was influencing regen's. Is there something similar in FMM 21?

The updates should always be save game compatible unless we state otherwise (normally in glaring neon red letters as it'd be a really bad thing to break an existing save).

The players promoted into your squad and their development once they're there will be somewhat random HOWEVER it is biased by the mentality of your team, the theory being that they look up to the existing professionals at the club while in the youth team and take on their characteristics somewhat. So if you have a professional side then you're more likely to get professional youngsters etc. ... woe betide you if you like mercurial temperamental players

[José-Manuel Malfleury]

^^

Updated and the scrollbar is still there. It doesn't scroll anything though, it only makes a tiny bit of green line appear above the green "positive" label in upper screen.

I understand that it bugs the person who designed the page, but I had never noticed it before you told me and it doesn't cause any problem. Also quite an old smartfridge/Android version.

[Marc Vaughan]

10 hours ago, José-Manuel Malfleury said:

^^

Updated and the scrollbar is still there. It doesn't scroll anything though, it only makes a tiny bit of green line appear above the green "positive" label in upper screen.

I understand that it bugs the person who designed the page, but I had never noticed it before you told me and it doesn't cause any problem. Also quite an old smartfridge/Android version.

Thanks for letting me know, I'll see if I can't get it rectified in an update.