In need of some in-depth diagnosis

[Absen]

This is actually my second thread in a short period of time, but I promise it's not spam – I now have a separate issue, and I realized I need some more “holistic” help with this game!

This is quite a lengthy post (soz), but I think the context is important – if you only want to feed back on the tactic(s), they’re at the bottom.

My situation is thus: I'm playing as Rushall Olympic in a rough approximation of the dafuge challenge. My first real bash at FM in quite a few years. Got promoted out of VNN in my third season and then fluked a spot in the playoffs of the VNL in my first season there with a reliable 4141 tactic of the following:

                          AF(a)

IW(s)                                          W(a)
  
              AP(s)          CM/Mez(a)

                       BWM(d)

FB(a)        CD(d)        CD(c)        FB(s)
                         GK(d)

        
I lost in the first round, but I thought it showed the two leagues were close in quality – by adding the right personnel I could make some good progress. That was my experience in FM’s previous; the first two leagues were normally a breeze, but League 1 or 2 was where you needed to hunker down and build up for a bit.

Unfortunately the opposite has happened. The season after I only narrowly avoided relegation. Admittedly a couple of my signings were duffers (a weirdly gaff prone new goalie, and a striker of zero confidence who was always on international duty). 

At one point I went 13 games without winning, at real risk of sliding into the relegation zone. I was only saved at the end by a Hail Mary loan signing from MK Dons who lit up things as a deep lying forward, a role I hadn't been able to use before in this save (the solo Advanced Striker had previously been very effective, so it was the only kind I had).

Coming into the next season (the one I'm currently in), I thought that if I overhauled the squad, developed some new tactics to accommodate the DLF role that seems to be so effective, then the jobs a good'n. 

And yet we seem to be in terminal decline. I started the season with a 4-1 romp at home which seemed like a great omen but our form has plummeted so we now look and play like relegation fodder. The new 4231 I developed as my proactive formation is a complete bust - it somehow leaves us open against bigger teams (and by bigger I mean above 15th in the table.. ), while being completely unable to break down the smaller teams that set up to frustrate, leaving me condemned to goalless draws and 0-1 defeats where I take chasing a goal too far.

I also have a formation designed for counter-attacking in games where I'm up against it, but it's a bit like playing the lottery - sometimes I will fluke a draw, very occasionally a win, but more often than not just get comprehensively beaten. 

Here I'll take a step back - I understand the principle of the game is to evaluate your squad and build tactics to best make use of them. So I’ll tell you about how I developed these. 

I set on 4231 as it would let me build around my two best players, who are most comfortable in AMC and AMR/ST roles.

Here’s the team reports:

And the two key players I feel I need to build tactics around:

 

I then look at the team comparison page and see that we seem to be most ahead for vision/passing/decisions:

 

 

 

My physicals are way down, but these are probably skewed by two fringe players I have. Now this is probably my fault for not prioritizing physical stats enough at this level, but to me this recommends a style of unlocking defences through shorter passing. Perhaps this is the wrong interpretation, but with the help of the rate my tactic tool I ended up with the following:

I have also experimented with changing the CM(s) to a DLP(s) to try and bring more creativity to the table (which is also Phillips’ natural role). This formation doesn't seem to make a dent in teams set up to camp away from home, nor does it make inroads into bigger teams that play more progressively. The DLF(a) has roam from position, but no other bespoke PIs.

Bearing in mind our squad is fairly weak overall, and mindful of the need for a more functional counter attacking formation, this is my other main tactic:

I’ve also tried the same tactic in a 4-4-2 setup, but it seemed like having two forwards was too indulgent, so I brought back more cover in defence. Again, heavy use of the rate my tactic tool. As a counter formation this one isn't built through the strengths of my team in the same way (no room for my main playmaker) but through classic absorb pressure and strike back mentality. The issue with this one is it feels purely down to luck how well it does - I may fluke a lucky goal here and there, but it's not enough to build a solid season on.

Here's how my season has gone so far:

 

The Chorley and Bromley games seem to have been a real turning point - I couldn't break down two teams that were camped in their half, and since then I've been caught in a bit of a death spiral. My home form (where I tend to use the 4231) is particularly worrying.

So how do I go about fixing things? Where am I making my main mistakes? I feel lost in a horrible soup of recruitment/motivation/tactics which is producing underperformance and I can't figure out exactly why. I feel like I'm going in circles consulting various guides all the while missing something that must be right in front of me.

Some more context/things to mention:

• I understand that the game isn't meant to be easy at lower league level (and it feels way harder than the last time I did dafuge), but I know that my team is underperforming what's there on paper, and I have enough FM experience to know when you’re managing a side bound for relegation!
• I have dipped into Rashidi/Cleon/Ozil's guides and they are helpful, but difficult to apply to the restrictions of lower league. Similarly, I can sometimes find advice from other posts on the forum to be contradictory (some  say slow your passing to unlock a massed defence, others say speed up).
• The only thing I seem to be able to consistently make work right now, at least for goalscoring, is spamming set piece training to target a centre back with 17 jumping. To be honest, when I do that it feels like borderline ME exploitation and I don't like doing it (esp. given the time I've invested into trying to build a team that can actually play…)
• I have lost some players - I had to sell my previously proven top scorer (the AF), and MK Dons wouldn't let me have the DLF loanee again. All of those should have fairly adequate replacements though. 
• I did sign a lot of players at the start of the season which has probably had an impact, though the team cohesion is Good. 
• The club vision is quite negative (just stick around the league) and despite the playoffs season, the players don’t believe we’ll achieve much more than fight against relegation. 
• I’ve conceded winners/equalizers in the last 10 minutes 4 times already, which feels like a clue I’m not protecting them properly (despite the usual methods). 
• To be clear, I don't think I have a divine right to be promoted every season or anything, I just know I'm failing because there's some fundamentals I can't grasp. I’m happy to slowly a build a team across multiple seasons, I just don’t want to lose what’s been a previously enjoyable save to my own stupidity. 

Edited January 2, 2021 by Absen

[frukox]

2 hours ago, Absen said:

This is actually my second thread in a short period of time, but I promise it's not spam – I now have a separate issue, and I realized I need some more “holistic” help with this game!

This is quite a lengthy post (soz), but I think the context is important – if you only want to feed back on the tactic(s), they’re at the bottom.

My situation is thus: I'm playing as Rushall Olympic in a rough approximation of the dafuge challenge. My first real bash at FM in quite a few years. Got promoted out of VNN in my third season and then fluked a spot in the playoffs of the VNL in my first season there with a reliable 4141 tactic of the following:

                          AF(a)

IW(s)                                          W(a)
  
              AP(s)          CM/Mez(a)

                       BWM(d)

FB(a)        CD(d)        CD(c)        FB(s)
                         GK(d)

        
I lost in the first round, but I thought it showed the two leagues were close in quality – by adding the right personnel I could make some good progress. That was my experience in FM’s previous; the first two leagues were normally a breeze, but League 1 or 2 was where you needed to hunker down and build up for a bit.

Unfortunately the opposite has happened. The season after I only narrowly avoided relegation. Admittedly a couple of my signings were duffers (a weirdly gaff prone new goalie, and a striker of zero confidence who was always on international duty). 

At one point I went 13 games without winning, at real risk of sliding into the relegation zone. I was only saved at the end by a Hail Mary loan signing from MK Dons who lit up things as a deep lying forward, a role I hadn't been able to use before in this save (the solo Advanced Striker had previously been very effective, so it was the only kind I had).

Coming into the next season (the one I'm currently in), I thought that if I overhauled the squad, developed some new tactics to accommodate the DLF role that seems to be so effective, then the jobs a good'n. 

And yet we seem to be in terminal decline. I started the season with a 4-1 romp at home which seemed like a great omen but our form has plummeted so we now look and play like relegation fodder. The new 4231 I developed as my proactive formation is a complete bust - it somehow leaves us open against bigger teams (and by bigger I mean above 15th in the table.. ), while being completely unable to break down the smaller teams that set up to frustrate, leaving me condemned to goalless draws and 0-1 defeats where I take chasing a goal too far.

I also have a formation designed for counter-attacking in games where I'm up against it, but it's a bit like playing the lottery - sometimes I will fluke a draw, very occasionally a win, but more often than not just get comprehensively beaten. 

Here I'll take a step back - I understand the principle of the game is to evaluate your squad and build tactics to best make use of them. So I’ll tell you about how I developed these. 

I set on 4231 as it would let me build around my two best players, who are most comfortable in AMC and AMR/ST roles.

Here’s the team reports:

And the two key players I feel I need to build tactics around:

 

I then look at the team comparison page and see that we seem to be most ahead for vision/passing/decisions:

 

 

 

My physicals are way down, but these are probably skewed by two fringe players I have. Now this is probably my fault for not prioritizing physical stats enough at this level, but to me this recommends a style of unlocking defences through shorter passing. Perhaps this is the wrong interpretation, but with the help of the rate my tactic tool I ended up with the following:

I have also experimented with changing the CM(s) to a DLP(s) to try and bring more creativity to the table (which is also Phillips’ natural role). This formation doesn't seem to make a dent in teams set up to camp away from home, nor does it make inroads into bigger teams that play more progressively. The DLF(a) has roam from position, but no other bespoke PIs.

Bearing in mind our squad is fairly weak overall, and mindful of the need for a more functional counter attacking formation, this is my other main tactic:

I’ve also tried the same tactic in a 4-4-2 setup, but it seemed like having two forwards was too indulgent, so I brought back more cover in defence. Again, heavy use of the rate my tactic tool. As a counter formation this one isn't built through the strengths of my team in the same way (no room for my main playmaker) but through classic absorb pressure and strike back mentality. The issue with this one is it feels purely down to luck how well it does - I may fluke a lucky goal here and there, but it's not enough to build a solid season on.

Here's how my season has gone so far:

 

The Chorley and Bromley games seem to have been a real turning point - I couldn't break down two teams that were camped in their half, and since then I've been caught in a bit of a death spiral. My home form (where I tend to use the 4231) is particularly worrying.

So how do I go about fixing things? Where am I making my main mistakes? I feel lost in a horrible soup of recruitment/motivation/tactics which is producing underperformance and I can't figure out exactly why. I feel like I'm going in circles consulting various guides all the while missing something that must be right in front of me.

Some more context/things to mention:

• I understand that the game isn't meant to be easy at lower league level (and it feels way harder than the last time I did dafuge), but I know that my team is underperforming what's there on paper, and I have enough FM experience to know when you’re managing a side bound for relegation!
• I have dipped into Rashidi/Cleon/Ozil's guides and they are helpful, but difficult to apply to the restrictions of lower league. Similarly, I can sometimes find advice from other posts on the forum to be contradictory (some  say slow your passing to unlock a massed defence, others say speed up).
• The only thing I seem to be able to consistently make work right now, at least for goalscoring, is spamming set piece training to target a centre back with 17 jumping. To be honest, when I do that it feels like borderline ME exploitation and I don't like doing it (esp. given the time I've invested into trying to build a team that can actually play…)
• I have lost some players - I had to sell my previously proven top scorer (the AF), and MK Dons wouldn't let me have the DLF loanee again. All of those should have fairly adequate replacements though. 
• I did sign a lot of players at the start of the season which has probably had an impact, though the team cohesion is Good. 
• The club vision is quite negative (just stick around the league) and despite the playoffs season, the players don’t believe we’ll achieve much more than fight against relegation. 
• I’ve conceded winners/equalizers in the last 10 minutes 4 times already, which feels like a clue I’m not protecting them properly (despite the usual methods). 
• To be clear, I don't think I have a divine right to be promoted every season or athing, I just know I'm failing because there's some fundamentals I can't grasp. I’m happy to slowly a build a team across multiple seasons, I just don’t want to lose what’s been a previously enjoyable save to my own stupidity. 

Mate, I understand your disappointment but were you able to find this article about LLM throughout your search? 

The first tactic(4-2-3-1)

You lack penetration. DLF(A), W(S), AP(S) and IF(S) all are creative support roles. You need to think about who are going to score(at least two in case one of them plays badly, how do you supply them the balls, whether they have enough support to the side or in the back etc., who are your three defensively capable players who will delay counterattacks and protect your channels. In this case, there is not a coherent attacking plan. Your left side looks ok but your right flank and forward line needs more penetration. If you play wide and pass short, you dramatically reduce your passing options especially for the ones on the flanks. If it is to be a dominating home tactic, you need to take more risks against a deep defensive opposition. If you play short, you don't need to drop tempo, it's already lower than medium, which may prove difficult for you to open up a stubborn defence. In addition to these, overlap left should be removed as you have a natural overlapping there. If you want to keep hold of DLFA, add a SSA or an IFA to add numbers to the front line. For example, it may look like this on Balanced mentality:

               DLF(S)

IF(A)          T(A)        W(S)

         CM(D) CM(S)

WB(S) CD(D) CD(D) FB(A)

IFA and DLFS would be your primary goalscorers while TA and WS will get their fair share from goals. They would be supplied by T, WBS, WS, FBA while your double pivot protect your middle channel from counterattacks as you can see I want at least four different ways to create a goalscoring opportunity bar set-pieces, counterattacks and opposition mistakes. It takes some risks to open up a defence by overloading both flanks to create space in the middle for your TA to operate but to maximize this space I would consider a upper-mid block. It's not a plug and play tactic. You may need tweaks from time to time. 

The second tactic 4-1-2-3

Operating on a defensive mentality means they are going to take far less risks on and off the ball but if you need to attack space behind opposition your players need a more forward-thinking mentality like at least Balanced or Positive. by lowering your DL and LOE to lower you basically passively defend around your penalty area. Do you really want to defend in this way? Is it good for your heart:)? At least up it to Standard DL/Standard, Lower LOE and add Get Stuck In and/or Tighter Marking to create a compact and proactive defensive unit. When it comes to your distribution of roles and duties, again you lack penetration up front and in the midfield. DLF(A) will hold up the ball but for who? You have to think about this. Your 4-1-2-3 can look like this on Balanced mentality:

                  PA/DLFA

IF(A)                          W(S)

          DLP(S) MEZ(A)/CM(A)

                    A

FB(S)  CD(D) CD(D) FB(S)

Your PA and IFA would be your primary goalscorers while WS and MEZA will get their shares.Your goalscorers would be mainly assisted by MEZA, WS, IFA, DLPS and if counterattacks fail, FB(S) could prove useful with deep crosses. While all these happen, your DLP and A will protect the middle channel with FBS on both sides. It may sometimes need tweaks. 

When the opposition attacks with numbers you can understand it easily. They would increase risk,tempo, passing range, number of runners and DL/LOE. When this time comes, hit them on the counter with early runners(attack duty players) with slow(if your team has ball-keeping capabilities)but with defence-splitting passes or fast direct attacks. To encourage this, always have a Lower LOE at least on Balanced mentality to encourage them to leave vast swathes of space behind them;) 

I hope you will find these considerations useful.

Edited January 2, 2021 by frukox

[DarJ]

1 hour ago, Absen said:

with the help of the rate my tactic tool

I personally think people should use tools like that just as a guide and not put 100% faith in them; after all they are only developed mostly following how the creator thinks the game should be played and that could be very different from how SI think the game should be played. 

I think people need to remember that although the game is meant to be a simulation of real football, it is still SI's representation of how football should be played and thus different from the real thing.

Looking at your 4231 there isn't much wrong with it although I'll point out things I'd change later and try to explain why.

Weakness of the 4231

• The 4231's vulnerable in the space behind the 2 CMs and the defenders so when you create a 4231 you have to keep that in mind and try to reduce that space. You can reduce the space using compression and since it is meant to be your home formation I'll go with a higher defensive line but make sure your defenders have the right attributes to play a higher line if not drop the 2 CMs to the DM strata
• The most important players in a 4231 are to 2 CMs so you want to choose the right players; they have to be able to defend and support play so the first attributes to look for are off the ball and positioning then anticipation, concentration, bravery, tackling and you also want them to have good acceleration. Why are these attribute important? They need off the ball to make themselves available to receive the ball, positioning because they have to be in the right place at the right time; anticipation and concentration goes hand in hand for me because they have to be able to read the game and see dangers before they occur; bravery and tackling are important because you don't want them to shy away from challenges and finally acceleration because if they make a mistake they need to be able to recover quickly and get back in position (remember that the difference between pace and acceleration is that pace is just top speed while acceleration is how fast they reach their top speed so there is no point having a player with 20 pace and 1 acceleration). Once you have chose the players to fill those positions then you can build the tactic around them.

Things I will change in your 4231

• I already mentioned compression so I will raise the defensive live if I have the players t do that
• This is just a personal preference, there is nothing wring with how you've set it up. I prefer my playmaker to be deeper so he has more space and time to work with so I'll change the AP to AM and the CM to DLP
• You are playing with an IFs and a FBa so they will overlap naturally; you don't need the overlap instruction, what that does is increase the mentality of the FB and decrease that of the IF and he's already on support so you don't want that
• This ties in with the previous point. You are playing with a winger who crosses and you have potentially one player for him to aim for (the DLF) or maybe 3 if the IF and AP make it into the box; with that said I'll either go for IFa then I can leave the overlap or I'll change the W to a IW
• Finally I'll ask the DLF, IF and AP to roam because there isn't much movement in the tactic.

Things I'll do If I come up against a defensive team

I think there are 3 ways to break a defensive side:

• Take advantage of set piece. you don't have too much control over this but if you take your time to set them up, you might score from one and force them to attack you which opens them up
• You want to stretch them and move them side to side to open up space. You already have a winger who does this to an extent on one side but you want to go wide, drop tempo to lower and increase passing directness to direct and then either focus play down both flanks or in your case focus play just down the right. Going wide tells your team to look wide for passing options first; lower tempo does 2 things, it give your players time to get to position and it also allows the opposition time to come out and press you hoping to win the ball and that is when going direct comes in, because hopefully they shift to one side to try and cover the space they leave the other side open and you IF can take advantage of that.
• If you don't like the previous approach you can invite them to attack you hoping that you win the ball and hit them on the break. To do this you can lower you defensive line and defend narrow (a.k.a. force opposition wide) then I'll add get stuck in; what that does is it tells your players not to press until they come inside your half and you are giving them space out wide so they can attack you and commit their wingbacks or fullbacks leaving space behind them for you to exploit.

You will notice I said "hope" many times and that's because sometimes non of this would work and you just have to accept it.

 

I've taking time to explain what I'll do with your 4231 and the reason behind my choice hopefully it helps you. I urge others to also give explanations on why they do certain things so even if there are contradictions the person asking for help knows why each person has gone for what they chose and they can weigh the positives and negatives.

I won't speak on the second tactic now because I don't have the time but if you want to hear what I think I can do that later today or another day

 

 

 

 

 

[Absen]

Cheers guys, this has definitely given me a lot to mull over. I know what you mean about the rate my tactic tool, it's something to be handled with caution but I'd trust anyone else's knowledge of the tactics system over my own at the moment!

frukox:

I had come across that article of Rashidi's, it was probably one of the best resources I've found. I found it funny, I seem to have the opposite problem of most lower league managers - I have a squad full of technical lightweights, as opposed to the usual runners and hard bastards! In some ways working with a team lacking in skill is easier, as it avoids the question of how you're going to score - you can just dismantle the opposition instead. 

DarJ:

This is all v sensible too. I think the roaming has to be a go-to - my FM style tends to reflect my personality, which is uber-cautious!

This is more by-the-by, but I'm finding the thing I struggle most to get to grips with is mentality, and I don't think I'm alone in that. The word "attacking" ends up meaning several different things in the game. The attacking mentality means something different from the attacking player instructions, which means something different from an "attacking" formation, which means something different from attacking in the nebulous sense, which is when all those parts combine to put your team on the front foot. 

This is why I always struggle with counter-attacking formations - I know it's FM 101, but I always find it hard to wrap my head around the fact that a positive mentality can be part of a defense-minded system.

PS: After some tinkering I updated by 4231 to:

                         AF(a)

IF(s)                 AM(a)                W(a)

           CM(d)                 DLP(s)

FB(a)  CD(d)                 CD(co)  FB(s)

 

First game was a sickening comeback defeat at home but we looked more convincing in attack. Second game was a 6-2 pasting of Eastleigh 

 

[frukox]

8 minutes ago, Absen said:

Cheers guys, this has definitely given me a lot to mull over. I know what you mean about the rate my tactic tool, it's something to be handled with caution but I'd trust anyone else's knowledge of the tactics system over my own at the moment!

frukox:

I had come across that article of Rashidi's, it was probably one of the best resources I've found. I found it funny, I seem to have the opposite problem of most lower league managers - I have a squad full of technical lightweights, as opposed to the usual runners and hard bastards! In some ways working with a team lacking in skill is easier, as it avoids the question of how you're going to score - you can just dismantle the opposition instead. 

DarJ:

This is all v sensible too. I think the roaming has to be a go-to - my FM style tends to reflect my personality, which is uber-cautious!

This is more by-the-by, but I'm finding the thing I struggle most to get to grips with is mentality, and I don't think I'm alone in that. The word "attacking" ends up meaning several different things in the game. The attacking mentality means something different from the attacking player instructions, which means something different from an "attacking" formation, which means something different from attacking in the nebulous sense, which is when all those parts combine to put your team on the front foot. 

This is why I always struggle with counter-attacking formations - I know it's FM 101, but I always find it hard to wrap my head around the fact that a positive mentality can be part of a defense-minded system.

PS: After some tinkering I updated by 4231 to:

                         AF(a)

IF(s)                 AM(a)                W(a)

           CM(d)                 DLP(s)

FB(a)  CD(d)                 CD(co)  FB(s)

 

First game was a sickening comeback defeat at home but we looked more convincing in attack. Second game was a 6-2 pasting of Eastleigh 

 

Now you are almost there. Make sure you play with a high tempo and hit early crosses. There are lots of runners in the box. 

Reversing defenders duties may be better. FBA goes up, he covers. Logical.

Edited January 2, 2021 by frukox

[DarJ]

57 minutes ago, Absen said:

After some tinkering I updated by 4231 to:

                         AF(a)

IF(s)                 AM(a)                W(a)

           CM(d)                 DLP(s)

FB(a)  CD(d)                 CD(co)  FB(s)

That looks better.

Mentality is the amount of risk you are willing to take, If you are unsure Balanced is always good point to start from