FM19 CB brings ball out of defense recommendations

[MagicHat]

So i've had matt clarke on my Lincoln save for 3 years in the prem and his average rating is 7.08, 7.21, 7.15 which is pretty good for a centre back. But the best thing i keep noticing is he dribbles the ball out of defense sometimes even beyond the half way line then plays a pass to my inside forwards etc. It seems to work really well when we are in a close game or struggling to break down a team.

 

So does anyone know any other good premier league standard players with the trait to bring ball out of defense so i can play with 2 of them then i'll probably play a half back or anchor man between them for cover, he also has runs with ball down left, so is that playing a part too or does that only work when he's at Left back?

 

Also i have tried training it to a few other players but it seems anyone with dribbling lower than 12 or 13 wont learn it.

[FrazT]

I am no tactical expert but I would have thought that it was dangerous to try and have 2 ball playing DCs at a lower level.  I have always thought that you want your DCs to be DCs, win the ball and get rid of it quickly without doing anything fancy and leave that to more creative players in the team.  Just my thoughts

[zindrinho]

 

21 hours ago, MagicHat said:

So does anyone know any other good premier league standard players with the trait to bring ball out of defense

Kristoffer Ajer!

[MagicHat]

On 19/03/2020 at 22:22, FrazT said:

I am no tactical expert but I would have thought that it was dangerous to try and have 2 ball playing DCs at a lower level.  I have always thought that you want your DCs to be DCs, win the ball and get rid of it quickly without doing anything fancy and leave that to more creative players in the team.  Just my thoughts

I am Lincoln but im in the premier league in my 8th season now. Instead of doing this with my Lincoln save i started a new game with Leeds, i actually ended up playing a 5-3-2 with the DCL and DCR as ball playing centre backs and pontus jannson in between them, with a CM on defense duty (kalvin phillips) and two box to box midfielders.

Finding players with this trait is actually really really hard, i ended up buying matt clarke (4.8m) again and play him as the DCL and a player from Palermo called Szyminski for about 900k as the DCR, both have the bring ball out of defense trait and both have good potential.

So far i've won 8 drawn 3 lost 1. It seems to be working well because i very rarely concede a clear cut chance.

[MagicHat]

On 20/03/2020 at 16:12, zindrinho said:

 

Kristoffer Ajer!

Way too much for a championship side like me lol. maybe if i get in the prem next year

[zindrinho]

8 hours ago, MagicHat said:

Way too much for a championship side like me lol. maybe if i get in the prem next year

On 19/03/2020 at 19:45, MagicHat said:

So i've had matt clarke on my Lincoln save for 3 years in the prem

My bad, I thought you were in the PL looking for a PL standard CB. If you get promoted sooner rather than later you really should try to get Ajer, I bought him for man utd as a DMC initially but after playing him as a CB for a few matches he was so good I couldn't find a place for lindeløf anymore, his header is really great nothing gets past him and he bangs in goals from corners on first post regularly.

[drizzlynewt]

On 19/03/2020 at 22:22, FrazT said:

I am no tactical expert but I would have thought that it was dangerous to try and have 2 ball playing DCs at a lower level.  I have always thought that you want your DCs to be DCs, win the ball and get rid of it quickly without doing anything fancy and leave that to more creative players in the team.  Just my thoughts

I could be mistaken, but I don't think that the role of Ball Playing Defender actually has any bearing whatsoever on whether or not a player will bring the ball out of defence, just on what they're likely to do with the ball when they have it... Will they just play a simple pass to a player who is close by or will they instead look to try something more adventurous? Provided your centre backs both have the vision and passing attributes required to perform the role well I don't think there's really any reason at all why you wouldn't play two ball playing CB's... It's not like one guy who's playing that role is less likely to make a mistake from "doing something fancy" just because his mate would have booted it away if it had been at his feet instead.

I also don't really think having two CB's who bring the ball out of defence would be an issue. Only one of them can have the ball at any given time and if they take it forward the other guy is staying behind to cover. The fact that the other guy would also potentially take the ball forward if he had it, again, has no bearing on how the player is behaving.

[zindrinho]

The biggest "problem" or scare with a BPD in my opinion is that they take more time on the ball, so if they dont find a pass they tend to just turn around in a circle and if the oppositions attackers close you down more your CB can lose the ball in a really annoying fashion.

The No nonsense CB just kicks the ball back to the opposition defence (again, In my experience), while a normal CB often can try the long pass and lose possession as well.
The standard CB can try these long passes as well, so if he isn't any good at passing, technique and vision I often ask him to take fewer risks.

the ball playing defenders are supposed to look for passes through opposition lines, looking for your MCs which usually isn't a problem if you have a tactic that makes good triangles so he has a clear line of passing.

I havent seen any downfalls in having 2 BPDefenders at the same time, I actually prefer it as they seem to play easy short passes which can only be good at lower leagues or not top-teams in a league since the longer passes from the back often just end up at the oppositions defence.

2 hours ago, drizzlynewt said:

I also don't really think having two CB's who bring the ball out of defence would be an issue. Only one of them can have the ball at any given time and if they take it forward the other guy is staying behind to cover. The fact that the other guy would also potentially take the ball forward if he had it, again, has no bearing on how the player is behaving.

This makes perfect sense to me, although I havent really looked for or played 2 CBs bringing the ball out of defence. What could be a problem considering real life football is that if you have a DM or CMs that drop deep your CBs will bring the ball right into a heap of your own CM/DMs and the opposition players that's marking them (think late career Ryan Giggs and how he drifted away from his CM position to let Michael Carrick have room to bring the ball forward without running right into Giggs and his marker. Something Olé still havent really figured out with Arry Maguire)

[drizzlynewt]

3 minutes ago, zindrinho said:

This makes perfect sense to me, although I havent really looked for or played 2 CBs bringing the ball out of defence. What could be a problem considering real life football is that if you have a DM or CMs that drop deep your CBs will bring the ball right into a heap of your own CM/DMs and the opposition players that's marking them (think late career Ryan Giggs and how he drifted away from his CM position to let Michael Carrick have room to bring the ball forward without running right into Giggs and his marker. Something Olé still havent really figured out with Arry Maguire)

Isn't it situational though? Like, centre backs usually only move forward with the ball to break the lines when they're playing high up and the pitch in front of them gets really congested... They're doing it to provide the extra man and disrupt the defensive organisation of the opposition. In these situations you'd expect your midfielders to already be engaged and for the defender making the run to do so already having knowledge of where the spaces are. On the other hand if the play is congested in their own half and they're currently sitting deep then surely they'd be looking to play a ball to release a striker or winger to transition quickly into an attack rather than going on a run themselves?

Maybe Harry Maguire doesn't do things that way but he strikes me as a real life no-nonsense defender who thinks he's a Rio Ferdinand-style "Rolls Royce" centre back.

[zindrinho]

IME they try to bring the ball out of defence (as in run with the ball into the midfield) no matter if you have a low defensive line or a high one. Also IME my defenders dont always care about the space being there for them to run into, they trust themselves to be a maradona-type player and just dribble. They dont ALWAYS do this of course, but they have a bigger chance of doing so than players without this trait. If you use 2 CBs and 2 DMs that make a square on your tactics sheet its more often a problem than if you use say 3cms and 2CBs which creates triangles.

Harry has always ran with the ball far up the pitch, one of his old team mates had a laugh at this on Transfer Talk this winter on SkySports saying "you're  a defender, wtf you doing, get rid of the ball and get back" (a sheff U or Hull team mate I think)

[drizzlynewt]

Perhaps I'm missing something obvious, but I'm not sure why someone who's using two DM's would want to use a CB who brings the ball out from defence?

[zindrinho]

No, It's the other way around, if you use 2 DMs and 2CBs that makes a square on your tactics you DONT wanna have them bring the ball out of defence because they'll only run the ball into opposition and team players, you wanna make room for the CBs to bring the ball out (Like Olé doesn't seem to figure out how to do so he doesnt get the best out of Arry Maguire)!

[drizzlynewt]

I think I misunderstood, I thought you were saying it doesn't work well when you're playing that formation and it should.

Still... Wouldn't getting the best out of Maguire be to tell him to stop making runs forward? He's not good at it. It's hardly good management to indulge the whims of a player with ideas well above his station instead of telling him to work to his strengths within the tactical framework of the team. Especially given that, from what I've seen, United play as a counter attacking team these days? If you have a chance to break don't waste it by having your slow centre back who's a mediocre passer plod up the pitch, play the ball to someone who can make something happen, surely?

[zindrinho]

I was trying to make the point that it doesnt work well in that situation, and then explain why.

United play on the counter again the big teams, like WOlves they struggle a LOT when teams dont attack them and there's no room or opportunity to counter. That's when you want a CB to create numbers in midfield and dribble past a line of opponents.

Whether or not Maguire is good at it for uniteds level, or wanted level of a team is really hard for me to judge as I havent seen him do it that much, but I like to compare him to Chiellini who isnt a naturally technically gifted player, but he has a mentality and some simple unforseen feints that makes him pass a line of oppositions really well. Long elk-like legs seem to help, and a version of the 2-foot feint. Just like Michael Carrick who was more a DLP with vision and passing, Bonucci of juventus or Coady at wolves, still had it in him to bring the ball forward and create numbers in midfield.

But real life and FM doesn't always compare that well, just try yourself to create a player from scratch that does the things he do in real life using the editor, just the smallest of attribute changes or PPMs makes a world of difference.

[drizzlynewt]

I think you and I have irreconcilably different ideas about the talents of Harry Maguire. But this probably isn't the place for that discussion.

Regardless, you appear to have used centre backs who bring the ball forward more often than me (or, at the very least, more often within systems that don't necessarily favour them). Is it a flat they'll tend to always try to bring it forward, or have you noticed any correlation between if and when they'll do it and any mental attributes? I'm thinking decisions would be the big one, but I imagine there could be others.

[zindrinho]

44 minutes ago, drizzlynewt said:

Is it a flat they'll tend to always try to bring it forward, or have you noticed any correlation between if and when they'll do it and any mental attributes? I'm thinking decisions would be the big one, but I imagine there could be others.

That's way above my paygrade! I only notice some players, like Ajer for instance does it very well but I have no idea which of the mental stats, or technical stats for that matter that makes him good at it. Way too many variables involved, most likely some hidden mental attributes as well and player personality.

For players that doesn't have the trait, but still does it from time to time, the only thing I've noticed is that its more often my BPD on a stopper role and not the cover role that brings the ball out of defence without having the PPM.

[MagicHat]

6 hours ago, drizzlynewt said:

Regardless, you appear to have used centre backs who bring the ball forward more often than me (or, at the very least, more often within systems that don't necessarily favour them). Is it a flat they'll tend to always try to bring it forward, or have you noticed any correlation between if and when they'll do it and any mental attributes? I'm thinking decisions would be the big one, but I imagine there could be others.

Here is an example. He basically cuts out the forwards and midfield from the defensive phase and ends up a cross in the box for my two strikers.