Some advice needed with Arsenal and tactics

[davidmn27]

Hi all

I always thought I was quite good at FM but this year has proved that...I'm not! I've read so much help on these forums and I'm already grateful to those people who take time to help those like me. Despite all the reading I've done I think I need some help specific to me as I just can't figure out whats going on!...

I let the AI play the first season and then added a new manager (prof footballer rep) in May '13 and took over at Arsenal who had pretty much the squad they have now. I sold the famous Arsenal 'deadwood' plus Mertesacker and Podolski as I didn't feel they had enough quality.

I brought in Lars Bender, Adam Ljajic, Koke, Mapou MBiwa, and Solomon Rondon.

I'm not playing Rondon too regularly as he's not settled yet.

Training is 4**** and have gone specfic with all players, and they're happy with their routines. Match prep is now on fully accomplished.

My 2 trained formations are 4-4-1-1 and 4-2-3-1.

Shez (SK D)

Sagna (FB S) (Jenko)

Kosc (CD D) (Mbiwa)

Verm (CD C) (Stones)

Gibbs (FB A) (Monreal)

Bender (DLP D) (Arteta)

Ramsey (DLP S) (Koke)

Cazorla (IF S) (Ljajic)

Wilshere (AM A) (Rosicky)

Walcott (W A) (Ox)

Giroud (DLF S) (Rondon)

Or I drop Cazorla back to the M/RL positions as WM S and W A to make the 4-4-1-1

Fluid, Control, More expressive, everything else is default. I make changes based on opposition i.e. exploit middle and run at defence against 4-4-2. If the oppo has an AM I drop Bender back the DM strata

My results are all over the place, sometimes we look good, but most of the time we draw in a very uninspiring way. The main probelm seems to be creating, Id expect to see Cazorla and Wilshere and Ramsey linking well, and playing in Walcott, or getting balls into Giroud and feeding off him but there just seems to be no penetration. A lot of the time my attacks fizzle out with a lame long shot (despite always 'working ball into the box')

Could it be my formation? Or is just because the players don't respect me yet and haven't gelled?

Please help me!! Thank you

[davidmn27]

Also..One thing I'm confused about -my interpretation of counter attacking is sitting deep, less pressing and then attackiong that space. So why do so many people recommend counter attacking with more pressing?

I'm so lost whether to play a high line and squeexe the game (I have quick defenders) but I understand this limits space to play in for my pacey attackers, or to sit back creating space.

[Fabian Jonsson]

Hard to say without knowing more about what happens in the games, but just from looking at you tactics it seems to me that you have too many players looking to get into the area between the oppositions midfield and defense and too few looking to run from deep to finish the moves.

I would try setting Giroud to DLF/A and maybe setting Cazorla to an AP/S instead. If you do, you have 3 specialist roles, in which case it could be worth trying out a balanced philosophy instead of fluid.

Try and see if that changes anything. Compare a game with those settings with one with your original settings and see if you can spot any differences in the attacking shape, and the players movement patterns. That will help you zero down on the issue.

[Fabian Jonsson]

Also..One thing I'm confused about -my interpretation of counter attacking is sitting deep, less pressing and then attackiong that space. So why do so many people recommend counter attacking with more pressing?

I'm so lost whether to play a high line and squeexe the game (I have quick defenders) but I understand this limits space to play in for my pacey attackers, or to sit back creating space.

The Control strategy increases more than the height of the d-line and the closing down instructions, most notably it increases the mentality. This means that the players are more attack-minded and will take bigger risks. People who like to set up cautious, patient, build-up play with high possession, will therefore advocate a strategy with lower mentality structures (like counter), as it means the players will play fewer high-risk passes. On the flip side, a possession based approach is often combined with a high pressing game, thus they set the team to press more.

[davidmn27]

A bit like Arsenal IRL then! Yes it does seem that we get decent possession but as I said, no penetration. I'd have thought AM A would get in the box and finish things as well though

Ok I'll try your advice, thanks. If I put Cazorla to an AP wouldn't that be a bit playmaker heavy though?

With more of a defensive strategy but 'pressing more' wouldn't that open up gaps for the oppo to exploit?

What shouts would u recommend to go with this if I switch to counter, balanced? Would you change passing to short?

[Mattp1980]

Also..One thing I'm confused about -my interpretation of counter attacking is sitting deep, less pressing and then attackiong that space. So why do so many people recommend counter attacking with more pressing?

I'm so lost whether to play a high line and squeexe the game (I have quick defenders) but I understand this limits space to play in for my pacey attackers, or to sit back creating space.

If you setup a team to be attack minded (ie: 5 attack duties) regardless of whether you use counter, standard, control or attack the team is going to look to attack once those players recieve the ball, the support players are then going to look to support them and the defence players will defend.

You have to try and get out of the mindset of viewing team mentality as black and white defend, counter, control, attack as it isn't that simple. On the team level when you increase the team mentality from defend through to attack your basically increashing the following,

* Passing Length

* Creative Freedom

* Closing down

* Defensive Line

* Width

* Tempo

If you take these individually they are all steps you would take to decrease/increase your chance of conceding/scoring a goal. Team mentality reflects the amount of risk them team is willing to take. How much risk is the right amount is upto you, you shouldn't pick attack because you want to score more goals you should pick it because you want to focus more on scoring than not conceding, likewise you should pick defence just not to score you should pick it to focus more on keeping clean sheets than scoring.

The reason counter attacking is becoming more recommended? In my opinion it's because it creates space behind the oppossion d-line to attack, this leads to a better quality of chance created with more time and space for your more forwards player to do their thing. A control tactic pins them down so you're basically limiting yourself to long shot and half chances, you might create more chances but they're rushed because space and time is reduced.

The closing down well a tactic that sits back encouraging the opponent to come towards them will work even better if you can win the ball back quickly and unexpectedly. If you have quick players try Counter/Standard with a deeper defensive line and see how much more space is created for your more forward players, but remember if you do this then you need to put somebody in to man the extra space you're creating (DMC) between your defence and midfield.

[Fabian Jonsson]

A bit like Arsenal IRL then! Yes it does seem that we get decent possession but as I said, no penetration. I'd have thought AM A would get in the box and finish things as well though

Ok I'll try your advice, thanks. If I put Cazorla to an AP wouldn't that be a bit playmaker heavy though?

With more of a defensive strategy but 'pressing more' wouldn't that open up gaps for the oppo to exploit?

What shouts would u recommend to go with this if I switch to counter, balanced? Would you change passing to short?

Yeah, but the thing with off the ball movement in FM is that the players tend to stay roughly in their spot if the space they would run into is already occupied. That is, Wilshere will often refrain from running into the defense as Giroud and the opposing centre backs are already there, and Giroud will not drop deep because Wilshere is already there (along with any opponents who play in that zone). It's not impossible, and it doesn't mean it will never happen, but it won't work as easily and often as one might think. If you want that kind of movement, I'd suggest playing them either shifted to left and right (so that they are not exactly right behind one another), or drop Wilshere into MC which will open a large space between the lines that they both can run into.

It's probably possible to get it to work well as you've set it up, but I haven't managed to.

[davidmn27]

Wow this is awesome advice, thanks for taking the time. I think its time to focus more on creating space by dropping a little deeper but pressing high up too, especially at home. Would you tick the counter attack box too?

I will make sure to put my Dlp D into the DM position when playing deeper.

I like the idea of having a striker and AM slightly to different sides too. Has anyone else had success with this?

So what shouts would I use and when? I'm assuming pass into space, stay on feet, work into box

[Fabian Jonsson]

Wow this is awesome advice, thanks for taking the time. I think its time to focus more on creating space by dropping a little deeper but pressing high up too, especially at home. Would you tick the counter attack box too?

I will make sure to put my Dlp D into the DM position when playing deeper.

I like the idea of having a striker and AM slightly to different sides too. Has anyone else had success with this?

So what shouts would I use and when? I'm assuming pass into space, stay on feet, work into box

No idea what shouts to use when. Only you can see your team play, and only you can know how you want them to play. That's for you to find out.

If you see something during a match that you don't like, try to apply a shout that seems logical in the situation, and see if it works. It's easier said than done, but the only way to learn.

If it's a situation that happens a lot and that you struggle to correct, you can of course try to explain it in detail (prefferably including screenshots), and what you tried to do to correct the issue. Then people might have a chance to help you, but that's an effort you can't go through for every single scenario that is bound to happen during an FM career.

[davidmn27]

That's fair enough actually..time to take the stabilisers off!

Thanks again

[Mattp1980]

Wow this is awesome advice, thanks for taking the time. I think its time to focus more on creating space by dropping a little deeper but pressing high up too, especially at home. Would you tick the counter attack box too?

I will make sure to put my Dlp D into the DM position when playing deeper.

I like the idea of having a striker and AM slightly to different sides too. Has anyone else had success with this?

So what shouts would I use and when? I'm assuming pass into space, stay on feet, work into box

With your current formation the shouts you would use to create more space would be "Drop Deeper" and "Play Wider". You could also use press more to attempt to win the ball back. If after that you found that you're still not creating good chances you need to evaluate why you think that is.

If you do go ahead and lower your team mentality you may not need to create more space but try half using the shout and half not using it and see which you prefer.

As Fabian has said its impossible to tell you which shouts will help but you're more than likely watching the game asking why are the always tackling my guys as soon as they get the ball? What can you do to fix this? Play quicker (Get Ball Forward), Stop passing to feet (Pass into space) or even create more space for your players (Drop deeper and Play wider). The right choice will be different every game and for every player so it's a case of finding what works best for your side.

Expand this for every problem you see and consider the choices available to you with shouts.

[davidmn27]

I've played 5 more games since switching to counter attack and changing the set up of my AM and forward and have won 4 lost 1 Which was very unlucky in the end. Only conceded 1 goal but only scored 6.

Still a lot of play just outside the area and not enough creativity..hopefully that will come once the formations are fully trained

[Mattp1980]

I've played 5 more games since switching to counter attack and changing the set up of my AM and forward and have won 4 lost 1 Which was very unlucky in the end. Only conceded 1 goal but only scored 6.

Still a lot of play just outside the area and not enough creativity..hopefully that will come once the formations are fully trained

So as I mentioned in the post above it's about identifying the problems and evaluating your choices, you identified the problem as too much play outside of the area and not enough creativity, so the options available to you are:

If you want to implement this on your core tactic then do these as a team instruction.

* Go more direct with your passing.

* More creative freedom.

* More roaming

With shouts you have a few more choices,

* Get ball forward if you think you need to attack a little quicker.

* Run at defence if you feel you're trying to pass through a little too much.

* Pass through defence if you feel you're trying to go to soon and they should probe some more.

* Hit early crosses if you want to create chances from deeper rather than so high up the field.

* Look for overlap if you want to get your full backs overlapping and crossing from the byline.

* Or try focusing passing.

Remember if you make defencing adjustments they will affect your attacking fluidity, what I mean is if you use opposision instructions then this is going to adjust the starting positions of players and how close they are to other players, so it's all about finding that right balance for you.

Their is no right or wrong answer and it might take a combination of the choices you have available to find the result you're looking for but if you use the shouts to first identify the better choice for you and then implement it globally.

[davidmn27]

Does 'get ball forward' just increase speed or does it mean more long balls? Will 'play through defence' encourage through balls from deeper or will it eliminate long shots and encourage more neat through balls from the edge of the area?

I guess it depends where the focus of your attack is.. if you have playmakers high they're more likely to thread little balls then have them coming from deep.

Thanks again for your help