My Liverpool tactic - How can you help me?? (If I can be helped)

[Blair McCabe]

Ok, so what I need is HELP.

That aside, I also want to discuss the tactics I have created for my Liverpool side. I have constantly been trying to get into this game but have not yet managed to build a tactic that I am happy with. This usually results in me getting sacked by November. I believe I have a very good starting squad that should be able to compete and manage top 4 comfortably.

My problems don’t appear to be in one particular area as I always struggle for goals and also struggle defensively. My results are usually very inconsistent which I find very frustrating.

So, here is my tactic....

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The thought is for my inside forwards to come in to support the deep lying forward. The deep lying forward would be expected to contribute with both goals and assists however it is worth noting I don’t expect 40 goals a season from the forward. The Inside forwards would be playing on their so called “weaker side” i.e. Left foot on the right wing and right foot on the left wing. This has proven to be successful for me in the past but I welcome any further thoughts.

I think the rest of the formation looks quite solid as I have the defensive midfielder to cover any attacking midfielder and the full backs are not too attacking leaving me exposed at the back. I have not made any adjustments to individual sliders as I will make changes using the shouts during the games. My preferred team settings are as follows:

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I use the counter strategy as this is quite solid and still allows you to create chances. I have 2 other versions of this tactic purely to teach my team alternative settings thus allowing me to make changes in game or pre game without affecting the familiarity of my tactic.

The main problem for me (and I acknowledge that it is a problem) is knowing how to counter the threat of the opposition.

I often look at my scout report but not really sure how best to use it therefore the only thing I really change is my passing style depending on weather conditions.

If the opposition has strong wingers then I may make my full backs more defensive but that often takes alot away from my team and how I want to setup.

If I am chasing the game I may change from counter to standard or control to push my backline higher up the pitch. I may instruct the team to close down more. The truth is I don’t know how to allow my changes to have the maximum impact.

I would start the game with shouts in place as follows:

Against weaker opponents – Pass into space, work ball into box and push higher up.

Against stronger opponents – Pass to feet, retain possession and stay on feet.

Better not forget my strongest lineup had I:

..................................Ter Stegen (Gk).........................................

..............Johnson(Fb)..Skrtel(Cb)..Agger(Cb)..Enrique(Fb)..................

....................................Lucas(Dm)..............................................

.......................Gerrard(CM-A) Shelvey(DLP-S)................................

.............Nem(IF-A).....................................Willian(IF-A)..................

..................................Suarez(DLF-S)..........................................

That would be my preferred lineup however that will change depending on injuries so will allow the likes of Shelvey, Borini, Kelly, Coates, Sterling, Suso, Shaarawy to come in. Very young squad overall but lots of potential mixed with current ability.

I would really appreciate it if you tactical guru’s could throw some ideas my way to try to make my tactic more effective. I know the shape is good and the players in the system are good enough to prevent me from being sacked. I do like to think I know alot about football (everyone does) but I am no coach and my tactical ideas are limited.

Thanks for your help in advance.

[kazm]

Does Stevie G still have the pace and stamina to make the runs an MC-a makes? Seems like he should me more fit for a 'less running, more passing/shooting role' so an AP-attack/support.

Read this thread, it uses a 4-1-2-2-1 as an example. With some changes, one of them the striker: the Trequartista seems to be the flavour of the month regarding strikers. With good reason, either they got buffed or I was to stupid to use them properly in FM12.

About the shouts:

bad teams: play defensive, slow, cautious, counterfootball from DEEP. Good teams: they push up more, close down more and often roam more. Bad teams rarely leave a lot of space behind defense, because they defend deeper. Passes in space wont always be a good idea.

Good luck!

[Althaz]

Your tactic looks decent enough (I used a similar setup with Liverpool in Season 1, although I used Allen as the DLP and Gerrard was an Attacking Playmaker, also my team used short-passing and more-pressing).

Your shouts look ok too, although I would use "Stand Off Opponents" instead of "Stay on Feet" against stronger opponents.

If you are struggling defensively, what sort of goals do you usually concede? When I tried it I found fast attackers were my problem, so for me switching to a cover/stopper pairing in central defence helped me immensely.

For scoring my advice would depend on where exactly your attacks are breaking down.

When chasing the game I don't like Control - it's a useful option, especially vs sides that just roll out 10 defenders, but it's too patient for chasing the game. I find it pays to not be afraid of the "Attack" and "Overload" strategies which can be invaluable (Attack especially can be brilliant, depending on the setup of your opposition).

[kazm]

Your shouts look ok too, although I would use "Stand Off Opponents" instead of "Stay on Feet" against stronger opponents.

Agree with that, IMO the tackling in this game is too powerfull. So often I see crazy slidings in the box coming from behind. No foul ever, always perfect tackles. Staying on foot has the advantage that your player when he gets the ball can pass it quicker instead of having to get up and run towards the ball first.

I am also a fan of holding of or not closing down. Especially someone like Hazard can rape you if you aren't careful and close him down a lot.

[Blair McCabe]

Thanks for the responses.

I would agree that Gerrard may well be better as an advanced playmaker attack as opposed to CM - A as his stamina and work rate are not what they once were. That is my first change as attacking playmaker seems to tick all the boxes for Gerrard. Does the fact that I am playing a deeplying playmaker and advanced playmaker have any negative impact at all?

I cant really comment too much on where I am conceding my goals at the minute as I have just started this save. My problems were from previous saves with the same setup so I am being pro active at the minute :-)

I have read through the thread you refer to and I have tried the Trequartista but I don't think it suits Suarez too well. When I tried it my inside forwards weren't getting much of a look in but with deeplying forward they seem more effective.

I have also added the "Stand Off Opponents" to my stronger opponents shouts as I have been a victim of multiple goal defeats against stronger opposition in the past :-)

So am I right in thinking the general setup I have is decent enough, I just need to tweak smaller things in game?

[kazm]

Thanks for the responses.

I would agree that Gerrard may well be better as an advanced playmaker attack as opposed to CM - A as his stamina and work rate are not what they once were. That is my first change as attacking playmaker seems to tick all the boxes for Gerrard. Does the fact that I am playing a deeplying playmaker and advanced playmaker have any negative impact at all?

I cant really comment too much on where I am conceding my goals at the minute as I have just started this save. My problems were from previous saves with the same setup so I am being pro active at the minute :-)

I have read through the thread you refer to and I have tried the Trequartista but I don't think it suits Suarez too well. When I tried it my inside forwards weren't getting much of a look in but with deeplying forward they seem more effective.

I have also added the "Stand Off Opponents" to my stronger opponents shouts as I have been a victim of multiple goal defeats against stronger opposition in the past :-)

So am I right in thinking the general setup I have is decent enough, I just need to tweak smaller things in game?

No its pretty normal to use an AP and DLP combo for both MCs, especially in 41221 tactics. Depends on players though.

I think the role suits Suarez fine (i dont know his ppms though), for example in this thread:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/334248-Understanding-Your-Tactic-The-Discussion

The same tactic is used with Tottenham, using Defoe, Adebayor or Rossi as TQ, 3 completely different strikers, but all can fill in the role. They just do it differently. Its explained in the thread.

Definately read that thread if you want to learn.

Maybe using 2 IFs instead of 1 IF, 1 winger makes a TQ less viable though. Not sure about that.

[Blair McCabe]

1 thing i've just noticed is that the average ratings for the players on my right side seem higher.

I have an attacking AP and attacking IF on the right whereas on the left I have a supporting DLP and an attacking IF. Could changing the left side IF to support help him link up the play with the DLP and still be effactive at the top end of the field??

Just a thought

[kazm]

edit: wrong topic lolwut

Ontopic: rights side might just be better or have better form, might just be short term luck: stuff like tackles/crosses working/headers or shots hitting the post etc. If Nem scores in his first game, his morale will rise and he might do better in the next games because of that.

Hard to say until you played lots of matches, and if a player plays well enough but another player plays even better it might not always be smart to change things for the first 1.

If the difference is big, look at the passes the AML makes and receives, maybe he is indeed to far away from the DLP. Changing to IF-s might work, read the player role description for the difference and just focus on watching him play.

Guess I'm getting old and need my nap now ^^

[Blair McCabe]

Kazm I think you're referring to this thread http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/342698-Time-to-attempt-to-learn-FM13-with-your-help-(I-hope)! as I don't play 442 nor am I Everton haha

[kazm]

Lol sorry guess I was looking at 2 threads at the same time .

Thats what you get when you get up before 9 in the morning.

[Cyderman]

I have played LFC with similar tactics. In the first couple of seasons Gerrard is fine to play AP. He will be the 4th attacker and the late arriver into the box - which suits his PPMs. I've lost him for 5 months and 4 months from both those seasons - but when he played he played well. Rotate him with Shelvey to begin with. Allen is a better bet for DLP - he will have extremely high pass completion rate and will be your controller. Unless you are up against a top AMC, Lucas can be put on support role - which will encourage Gerrard to push on. Suarez as a trequartista encourages him to roam further from the starting position - which I find makes more space for the inside forwards. And lastly I would change the fullbacks to wingbacks (in role only) and put them on attack duty. You need them to provide width and keep the opposition fullbacks honest. With a wide threat you are creating a bigger gap between fullback and centre half in a 4 man defence - you want your IFs receiving the ball in this gap with the full back tracking on the wrong side.

The other good thing about Liverpool is you have a number of good prospects - Shelvey, Sterling, Robinson - who will turn into bonafide starters - plus I see you have Nem - Sterling is a very effective performer from the start - but after 2 seasons will be a real star of the league. The combination of his quickness, his dribbling and his run with the ball often PPM makes him a very direct and weapon - particularly from AML.

To see how well your tactic is working, under analysis - check out both movement and crosses. You should see your IFs making multiple runs from wide to centre in a diagonal towards the box. If they are making vertical runs - they are being shepherded wide by the defence and you are not flooding the 2 DCs as planned. Your wingbacks should be getting into the final third and providing crosses - to stretch the defence. If they don't get within 30 yards of the byline (check passes, crosses and movement) - then they are not helping your attacking shape by horizontally stretching the defence - and you should up their attacking intent.

In terms of shouts, there are lots of good threads about good combinations. I find in the premier league, it's mostly weaker teams that play 442. That formation will its large gaps between players and often deployed by poor teams means it is ripe for stretching wider and then overloading the middle. Run at defence is a fairly effective shout too - when you have Nem, Sterling and Suarez as a starting 3 up front - less so with Borini. Any formation that doesn't contain a DMC will struggle if your trequartista / DLF can exploit the negative space between their defence and midfield. The only formation I consistently struggle with is the wide diamond. The wingers are too deep to man mark effectively, and the DMC screens the defence preventing overloading. The DLP can also be used as a very effective man marker of opposing CMs without affecting your own shape (keeps the DMC free to mark space, and the AP to break forward on transition). And finally, if you use Nem and Suarez in the same line up, setting them to swap positions will prevent the effective man marking of Suarez - you can do the same with Borini and Suarez too.

[Blair McCabe]

I have played LFC with similar tactics. In the first couple of seasons Gerrard is fine to play AP. He will be the 4th attacker and the late arriver into the box - which suits his PPMs. I've lost him for 5 months and 4 months from both those seasons - but when he played he played well. Rotate him with Shelvey to begin with. Allen is a better bet for DLP - he will have extremely high pass completion rate and will be your controller. Unless you are up against a top AMC, Lucas can be put on support role - which will encourage Gerrard to push on. Suarez as a trequartista encourages him to roam further from the starting position - which I find makes more space for the inside forwards. And lastly I would change the fullbacks to wingbacks (in role only) and put them on attack duty. You need them to provide width and keep the opposition fullbacks honest. With a wide threat you are creating a bigger gap between fullback and centre half in a 4 man defence - you want your IFs receiving the ball in this gap with the full back tracking on the wrong side.

The other good thing about Liverpool is you have a number of good prospects - Shelvey, Sterling, Robinson - who will turn into bonafide starters - plus I see you have Nem - Sterling is a very effective performer from the start - but after 2 seasons will be a real star of the league. The combination of his quickness, his dribbling and his run with the ball often PPM makes him a very direct and weapon - particularly from AML.

To see how well your tactic is working, under analysis - check out both movement and crosses. You should see your IFs making multiple runs from wide to centre in a diagonal towards the box. If they are making vertical runs - they are being shepherded wide by the defence and you are not flooding the 2 DCs as planned. Your wingbacks should be getting into the final third and providing crosses - to stretch the defence. If they don't get within 30 yards of the byline (check passes, crosses and movement) - then they are not helping your attacking shape by horizontally stretching the defence - and you should up their attacking intent.

In terms of shouts, there are lots of good threads about good combinations. I find in the premier league, it's mostly weaker teams that play 442. That formation will its large gaps between players and often deployed by poor teams means it is ripe for stretching wider and then overloading the middle. Run at defence is a fairly effective shout too - when you have Nem, Sterling and Suarez as a starting 3 up front - less so with Borini. Any formation that doesn't contain a DMC will struggle if your trequartista / DLF can exploit the negative space between their defence and midfield. The only formation I consistently struggle with is the wide diamond. The wingers are too deep to man mark effectively, and the DMC screens the defence preventing overloading. The DLP can also be used as a very effective man marker of opposing CMs without affecting your own shape (keeps the DMC free to mark space, and the AP to break forward on transition). And finally, if you use Nem and Suarez in the same line up, setting them to swap positions will prevent the effective man marking of Suarez - you can do the same with Borini and Suarez too.

Thanks mate, excellent post.

I suppose the fact that I have not been using attacking wingbacks would contribute to me having little success using Trequartista. Would using attacking wingbacks not leave me totally exposed at the back? Would you do the same against bigger teams?

I generally like to play Shelvey in every game providing he is fit as he becomes a wonderkid and gives me a sense of achievement :-) (Not had many).

[Cyderman]

It is a risk to push your fullbacks on - but you need their width to make your attacking shape work - if you play 3 narrow attackers. Most formations are a game of scissor/paper/stone. You also need to bear in mind that if you have attacking style players (my favourite is Alaba) it suits them to push on - ie Enrique/Johnson are better going forward. When I play my wingbacks more conservatively, they don't seem to do too much better against good wingers (eg Bale) - and it undermines my ability to do anything with possession. But that just could be me being poor at managing the threat. I prefer to own the centre of the pitch and cede the wings.

[Blair McCabe]

Right here we go.... As expected I am now on a shocking run of form with Man City destroying me 5-0... Wouldn't mind so much but I have no clue what so ever as to how I can rectify this. Why the hell do you need to be such a mastermind to win in this game. It's shocking.

I found they were having numerous long shots so I pushed up higher, that didn't work

I used the stand off and stay on feet shouts and that made it like a training match for them.

I didn't have a look in at the other end.

I simply don't know what to do.

[Blair McCabe]

Conceded 14 goals in 6 games and only scored 8. My usual problem just won't go away. My left inside forward is offering me nothing so far. His movement is poor. My players keep getting knocked off the ball and getting closed down quickly.

Too many problems, probably not even worth bothering!!

[Blair McCabe]

Ok so I have made a few minor changes and started to turn things round a little. I have gone back to a deeplying forward. Whilst I acknowledge people have had great success with a Trequartista, the deeplying forward appears to work better for me.

I have also change my full backs back to FB - S which appears to have steadied the ship. Also I have made my left IF a winger and switch wellington nem to the left and Willian to the right. This has produced some class performances from Willian whilst nem seems to perform wherever I play him.

I have added a shout to my starting set aswell which would be either Exploit the middle or the flanks depending where the opposition concede most of their goals from. If they concede a mixture of goals then I will use neither. I will also make my fullbacks attacking if the opposition does not play wingers and make the DM support if they only have two central midfielders.

Does this seem a sensible thing to do and are there any other obvious things I should be looking at??

[kazm]

Next 5 games tell the squad to just go out there and play without pressure. Also have you done a teamtalk? Morale is super important.

It seems to me it is harder to make a 41221 work with 2 IFs than with 1winger 1 IF. Keep experimenting i guess, preferably 1 or 2 things at a time and hope the patch will make stuff more based on logic again.

Check this thread: he uses the same formation with Tottenham:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/342124-FM-13.2.1-Reducing-long-shots-and-increasing-through-balls

Other than that only thing you can do is analyse and pay even more attention to detail, like individual 'you do ****' talks to boost morale.

GL!

[Blair McCabe]

Next 5 games tell the squad to just go out there and play without pressure. Also have you done a teamtalk? Morale is super important.

It seems to me it is harder to make a 41221 work with 2 IFs than with 1winger 1 IF. Keep experimenting i guess, preferably 1 or 2 things at a time and hope the patch will make stuff more based on logic again.

Check this thread: he uses the same formation with Tottenham:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/342124-FM-13.2.1-Reducing-long-shots-and-increasing-through-balls

Other than that only thing you can do is analyse and pay even more attention to detail, like individual 'you do ****' talks to boost morale.

GL!

Yes I always do teamtalks. I have witnessed first hand on several occasions how morale can affect you.

Cheers for your input Kazm

[Blair McCabe]

So I am pretty happy with my season so far as I have won the league cup (first silverware on this game :-).

The problem I have which is a huge problem is my defence are leaking goals like crazy. I am playing a zonal marking system and have all season. I wanted to use this to keep the shape of my team better but this appears to not be working. Anyone got any tips on how I can improve my defence?? Is it a matter of poor defenders or something I am doing that is screwing it up?

Here are some screenshots to help:

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I realise the last screen screenshot is not great but it basically shows my tackle won ration is 80-90%, heading is 75-90% and there have been 7 mistakes leading to goals.

I hope someone can help with this but just so you know I dont just want the answer giving to me, I thought maybe I should switch to man marking and also less closing down. My tackling seems ok so I won't adjust that.

[Blair McCabe]

Any suggestions anyone?

[MakaveliPT]

What's the acceleration and pace of your CB's ? You leaking a lot from your left FB are you sure he's up for the task?

What helped me a lot as far as defense was specific man mark on the FB/WB's, your left FB marks closer their right winger, your right FB marks closer their left winger, also tick your IF's to mark close. This should counter their wingers. I'm also not sure you should be using a more expressive approach.. you have plenty of CF and flair in front so you don't really need to tell them to be even more creative, which may lead to plenty of selfish moves.

I know this might seem contraditory but you might wanna get your defense line up, the higher you lose the ball on the pitch the better chance you have to defend against it, perhaps you should use press more.

[kazm]

- If you ever use the 'hassle shout': it will also make your players man mark instead of zonal marking. I never want manmarking on my team so I set all the individual marking instructions to zonal for each position.

- Skrtel I think is a stopper, Agger is a covering DC, or vice versa. Using them like that can help.

- mistakes might be made because of the way your team is pushed up/down compared to the enemy team. If the enemy front is closing down your team a lot and pushing up for example. Especially the defenders with low composure are prone to this. They panic and hoof it away or play it short to the GK/the backs.

This could also happen if you use the push up higher (+play narrower): the centre of the pitch gets more congested, players are closer to each other, making it harder to find space leading to more interceptions.

If you see the enemy is pushed up higher and is closing down A LOT, you can use the drop deeper, play wider combo, this will increase the space between your players making it easier to find other players to play to and increases the distance the opponents players have to run thus tiring them faster.

All these shouts have pros and cons and even if you use the right tactic + right player roles + right shouts you will still lose/concede/have players make mistakes sometimes, they are not robots.

Finally: Enrique has 11 marking 16 tackling you might set him manually to tackle harder, this means he will be more likely to tackle. He doesnt have great decisions though so watch carefully. He is better at it then he is at marking his man though.

As for the goals coming through the centre:

Using Lucas as DM-s is great against teams that play 442 (basically teams without an AMC) because that means you create a 3 v 2 situation in midfield. Against AMCs definately set him to DMC-d and possibly have him manmark the enemy AMC, just setting him to Defend will probably make a huge difference anyway. If you score like 4 a game right now and concede 2 a game I would just set him to defend all the time.

Anyhow why not rewatch all the goals you conceded? Yes. All. Takes ages that is true. But that right now is how the game works: if stuff doesn't work you either gotta be lucky (changing stuff randomly and having it work) which is improbable or you have to analyse. Or at least watch the last 10. There is no way there won't be patterns. Write down how the goals happened and what went wrong. I would be surprised if it wasnt somewhat like this:

-40% because of 1 flaw in your tactic

-40% because of a different flaw

-20% goals that have nothing to do with your tactic, penalties/corners/freekicks but also goals they score even though your tactic is good in that part.

GL!

[Cyderman]

Agree with the above plus without watching a bunch of the goals it is difficult to tell. If assists are coming from within the box - it may suggest you are sitting too deep or standing off too much - particularly in your own box. A good sign of your defence doing its job is your opponent having to shoot from distance. With regards to the LFC squad, Lucas has at least one annoying PPM for a DMC (d) - he likes to go walkabout - might be worth asking him to unlearn it. Enrique defensively is the weak link at the back. Also do you use a stopper duty for any of your DCs? Sometimes that can create gaps when they go wandering off into midfield trying to break up play. If the stopper is your DCL and Enrique is pushed up you might expose your left side. If you play that way you want Skrtel/Coates man marking and Agger covering (at DCL). If you are playing zonal, I find defend/defend is better at keeping shape than stopper/cover.