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  1. I've been playing 4231 and i've been getting the same feeling, massive possession every match 60-70% but can't score more than 1 or 2 goals no matter how many shots on target i get or whoever i'm against. IF's AMC's seem to refuse to do through balls and strikers seem to refuse to do off ball movements, game feels like ping pong, way too many shots are either woodwork or hits someone as if there were brick walls in front of them, i'd be okay if they failed the target, which they do often, but hitting defenders this often seems ridiculous, it all feels like a very artificial way of balancing attacks
  2. Alright, let me see if i can help out a bit, i actually play the same formation this year, also with tottenham as my inspiration, and i just probably had the best season i ever had on any FM, granted i'm playing on portuguese league and by now my team is way above average on the league, but i managed a 103 goals difference with this formation with 114 scored and 11 conceded, so don't quit on the formation! It can create some crazy amazing plays, anyway my thoughts: Striker : Just like myself my first thought of role for the striker was the complete forward, and just like yourself i've used a shadow striker behind him, that made sense to me, but i could barely create any chances, i concluded that i didn't needed my striker to be a creator most of the time, i needed lateral movement, i needed him to run into space to get those through balls, i already had plenty of supportive creators behind him, therefore i changed him to an Advanced forward, moving into channels and running into space, also crossing while being wide, perfect! between my main striker and sub they had 68 goals and 27 assists, again on a more competitive league i doubt the stats would be this high, we'll see as i quit my job and i'm looking for one on premier league now AMC : AMC's was always a problem for me on every FM tbh, always underachievers, always seemed to me they should be doing so much more, especially on supportive duty, i still haven't quite fixed that as i use an MO/S and MO/A, the attacking one has been great, being my main assister and secondary goal scorer which is exactly what we're looking for, why i swapped SS for an MO/A you might ask, the SS doesn't defend as much, he sits a bit higher up than the MO/A and he only starts his runs higher on the pitch in my experience. THE MO/S is an issue, he scores, he assists, he does okay, but as always he should be doing way better, i haven't managed to fix this yet and tbh i doubt i will, what i know is i don't like playmakers in formations like these, they are ball magnets, and they distort the formation, i'd only consider one if using a runner behind him like a CM/A, but that would make our defense quite weaker to counter attacks, reason why no adv. playmaker. CM : Ball winning midfield is a nice choice, i've eventually changed to a deep playmaker as i don't mind him being a magnet deeper in the field and it suited my players better, the CAR role tho', has the same problem in this type of formation as the playmaker imo, he moves too much laterally to support the flanks and then when players want to switch the ball from the left flank to the right there's no passing option because both CM's are supporting the left flank, that will lead to bombing the ball right and it might result on lost balls, also leaves the right AMC unsupported, i use a box2box mid instead having vertical movement instead of lateral one. Now, the really important parts, Mentality and Shape, just like you at my first trying of this formation i had insane possession but no chances at all, the reason was Tempo, we're playing with a single striker, players will have a split of a second to do a through ball when the striker moves into space, if they don't he'll be already marked and won't be a passing option instead what you have is 'retain possession' 'shorter passing' 'work ball into the box' and a Control mentality, that translates into take barely to no risks. Push up higher will make a formation weak to long through balls even weaker, so how do we control that massive space between CM's and CD's? Well using a covering defender on the mid will only open that gap more for opponent strikers, so while i understand your idea if you want to use covering defenders i'd use them on the sides and a blocker on the middle to go cover that gap as soon as possible. How can we further cover it? Shape! a more fluid shape will make the team act more as one, with a few pressure PI's on the midfield and wingbacks you will park the bus defending with 5 players with 2 mids in front of them making it very difficult to break. Anyway here's my formation hope it gives you some new ideas and things to try, i know how it feels to be frustrated and out of ideas, it really sucks, been there way too often, best luck!
  3. No worries, let us know how it goes on the new save and how the MEZ does for you!
  4. Here's my 2 cents about it, 1) Mentality & Shape : Since you using a standard mentality and a structured shape, your team play will depend a lot on which roles and mentalities you use individually, my guess is your MEZ will be pretty much your only runner on the middle and if he's running into a crowded area ball will most likely be lost, in my experience formations like these require a lot of movement and runners, i'd use a fluid maybe even very fluid shape, making sure the team moves as one, mentality wise i'd go for a more attacking mentality as well in order to get more runs. 2) Roles: I don't have much experience with the new roles MEZ and CAR and with the one i have i'm not sure CAR fits here, he has a lot of lateral movement, meaning if the ball is on your right flank he'll move right to support, so will your DLP, there will be no decent passing options from there to your left flank except bombing the ball to your wingback or strikers. First thing i'd do is switch MEZ & CAR sides, forming a triangle with CAR MEZ and DLF, i still think a role with less lateral movement would work better than CAR and maintaining the team shape more, a CM/S would do this while supporting the DLF. Wingbacks, i'd add the PI to play closer to the middle, especially on the side of the MEZ, on the other side i'd actually use an attacking inverted wingback, forming another triangle in between the CM/S, DLF and himself, it's all about that geometry! The back 3, i've tried pretty much every combination and in my experience what works better for me is having 3 blockers with the middle one pressuring more, this works on my formation as i have no DMC's, on yours tho' i'd make sure the DLP doesn't pressure much and use a regular CD/D behind him while having 2 blockers on the sides that will act as cover for your wingbacks. Anyway, here's how i'd play that formation, best wishes and take everything i said with a grain of salt, i ain't no expert.
  5. Bump, tactic still going strong but the lack of ccc's is still bothering me a lot, has anyone noticed if maybe ccc's detection this year is a bit off? i keep winning but very low ccc's even tho' i have an average of ~4 goals a game, fairly perfect heatmap with players being where i wanted them to be and then this, almost feels like they just ignore the striker as a passing choice which i understand since it seems they just don't try to go for through balls as the striker simply doesn't move away from the defender, i've tried pretty much every striker role by now, as you see another game dominated, 4 goals and 0 ccc's, it just feels off, most games are like this. The last and most stable iteration of the tactic so far, what can i do to get a chance at more ccc's?
  6. Well yea, but the 3-4-2-1 should work on FM plus i'd rather create something solid, i like to have possession and i rather win 2-0 than a 4-2 you know? I have since started playing fluid indeed to compact the team more and get the wingbacks more involved, playing with more unspecialized roles, as well as a normal/control mentality, mostly normal as i don't wanna push too forward and create too many gaps to explore Update: We've won our first trophy and we're still undefeated, i'm pretty happy with my defense so far especially since most of them are youngsters, having the mid defender to press higher and with more intensity, attacking wise i wish i could get the striker more involved in the plays but i just don't seem to be able to, or if i should even, there's already enough players occupying the third quarter so perhaps he should just focus on trying to score, the AMC's are doing okay, i don't want to distort the formation too much with a playmaker up front so i'm using regular AMC's, still testing them but it's going okay so far, can't help but notice that the attack should have more movement but i can't figure it out thus far, might get left wingback to attack but i'm afraid of the gap it would create once we lose possession.
  7. Hey everyone, lurker here for a long time, i've been trying a new formation for once (4231 since ever) and and i'm getting out of ideas on how to penetrate most defenses especially weaker teams that defend deep, most games i get decent to good possession (50-65)% but very low good chances, if any, although i am now also baffled reason why i finally decided to post after beating dortmund 6-0 with my beloved benfica, having great chances but for the first time low possession. Therefore i need help brainstorming, is this result an anomaly and my formation just 'counters' theirs? What should i change vs weaker teams to get better chances? I'm aiming for pass through defense tactic with high movement from deep, using that movement to keep cycling the ball until a space is opened to attack. Let me show you what i got. As far as PI's go, CF, AM and BBM all move into channels and the last 2 move forward often creating movement. My argument for direct passing was that while getting 1400+ passes a game at some point was fun it accomplished nothing, so my thought was to either increase tempo or passing style, i've went with the 2nd option as i feel my players are not that gifted to play faster with decent clarity, the formation has good enough movement tho' to afford a fairly risk free direct passing options. Why counter and structured? This formation has a lot of gaps for the opposition to explore, flanks and behind the CM's, i need my whole team to defend behind the ball to cover those gaps, while attacking the fact that i defend behind the line of the ball will open a lot of space up front for my team to explore. With this in mind my first approach was to play with a fluid team shape to get even the most attack minded players to defend, unfortunately while attacking the team would get on each other toes reducing space and making us weaker to counters, also structured gives me more control over what each players does and i'm a control freak The dortmund match ccc's & heatmap: The issue : One of the many games vs weaker sides, pretty much no chances, even tho' good possession, . The results so far; Although they look alright i feel like the team should be creating much more, as most of these games the team has an high amount of possession but can't do anything with it, and 2-3 of these wins was nothing but a good corner or freekick TLDR: What are my options to turn possession into chances vs weaker sides that defend deeper, is the tactic unbalanced and i'm missing something? Also a side note, Why is AI Tottenham that plays the same formation gets such awful results (at least on my save) when it should be one of the most dominating teams in premier league imo, seems that just like me they have a pretty hard time creating chances as well. Thank you in advance for the help.
  8. It's true it seems the AI uses mostly support roles on advanced positions, especially on the 4231, it makes sense tho' and that's why i also use them, an attacking role on the winger position doesn't track back most of the time, that can be good if you are using a wide target man on a counter attacking strategy or counter attacking through the flanks but for possession football it hurts the construction a lot. I'm playing Arsenal just played vs Chelsea on the capital cup final winning 4-0, first season no big signings, using mostly support dutys. Game ended with me with 6 out of 9 shots at the net, 53% possession, so i know that while i'm not shooting much the CCC's i'm creating have good quality, Chelsea on their hand had 2 out of 10. Mentality : Normal, as i want to have a fair share of space behind their defense but at the same time not be too defensive myself. Formation : Fluid, i want pretty much everyone to help with the transitions, playing as a compact block that moves up and down the pitch. Szczesny : GK, distribute to cb's Gibbs : WB/S Balanta, Koscielny : CB/D Debuchy : FB/A (AI would have used a FB/D) Wilshere/Ramsey : Adv. Playmaker/S, dribble more Wilshere/Ramsey : CM/D, more risky passes Cazorla : IF/S, Hazard's role and usually my worst player and my second main issue, Chelsea seems to use Hazard actually as a Winger/S. Ozil : AMC/S, Shoot less, More risky passes, my main issue as i'd love to see Ozil create more, i know he does on an attacking duty but that's not something i want here. Sanchez/Walcott/Ox : Winger/S, More risky passes Welbeck : Dlf/A, although i reckon most roles would work here since it has a lot of support, still i rather have one that drops deeper as the AMC also does. Team Instructions : More direct passing, pass into space, work ball into the box, play through defense, exploit the middle ( personal option here ), play wider, press higher up, roam from positions, press more, use offside trap, less intensity and avoid short distribution. I reckon this emulates Mourinho's style of play quite decently with some changes made by myself that i reckon balance the tactic more. EDIT : Btw if anyone has any suggestion on what to do with the IF/S and AMC/S positions to get IF more involved and the AMC to assist more please share and Happy new year!
  9. 4-2-3-1 Denmark is my favorite formation since i don't even know when, i can make it work alright, winning or leaking on defense was never the issue. The problem imo is with how FM handles the IF role and especially the AM one, doesn't matter since a couple of versions ago what role the AM is i just can't get him to do what i, imo, think a 4-2-3-1 needs. The problem with the midfield trio on this formation is that they all need to play compact, two of them with good mobility, but at the same time none can be too agressive, also while they have to be mobile they must also be it on their own area of play. The Enganche doesn't defend enough, The playmaker on support drops deep too much, on attack he rushes forward too soon, people usually claim the Trequartista is the best role for it but i can't agree, again he doesn't defend, he rushes too fast into the box instead of actually doing what he's supposed to, the AM on support does ok but not creative at all. I don't consider AM/a or SS as i don't even consider them major creators. This can all be worked around if you actually want your AMC to be your main scoring threat instead of the striker, which i don't. This position is usually my main grudge with FM and unfortunally it has been for long enough that i gave up on the formation. It works, i'm doing my first season on FM 15 with Arsenal and just stopped using the 4231 but until then i was at 1st with just one draw, the problem is the chances created are scarce and hardly ever beautiful, considering the midfield Arsenal has i'd expect much more spectacular plays. As far as the AI goes, particularly Chelsea, they seem too inconsistant, they either win 6-0, or lose 0-1. The more i see their games i'm pretty sure they use a regular AM/S on the AMC position and fabregas as a runner, just not sure if as an CM/A or an adv playmaker on support, their defense is obviously very conservative and i doubt they use any attacking roles along with support roles on their wingers. They also defend with pretty much their whole team although they don't seem just focused on the counter.
  10. To a certain degree yes, there are a couple of things that still illude me mostly related to their passing style. They have used the 4231 most of their season, i actually just played against them now and they went for a 4-2DM-1CM-2-1. Their defense is quite conservative using a defensive fullback on the right side and a support one on the left. I reckon hazard is an IF/S while using a support winger on the other side, their midfield trio is weird tho', i reckon fabregas plays as an adv playmaker on support, matic as a cm/d and a offensive mid support oscar. Pretty sure they use Diego Costa as deep forward or even defensive forward. I haven't spent much time watching them this version tbh but i reckon they play on the counter with a fluid mentality and a more direct approach, although i doubt they use the same approach every time.
  11. I recently started my last save on fm 2014, and i finally reached premier league with Luton town, which fortunally wasn't as hard as i thought due to a major take over as i reached championship, that along with the AI letting pretty nice players out of their contracts helped a lot . Moving forward as my first 2 matches on the premier league i got Man City and Chelsea, i drew the first game 0-0 somehow and i got completely destroyed and amazed against Chelsea, over many saves i've played against them although with major teams so i never really bothered analysing much how the AI emulates Mourinho, so i set myself a new last goal for this save was to recreate their tactic. As a manager who never loses faith on Denmark 4-2-3-1 i was curious how was the AI making such solid defense and at the same time such blitz deadly attacks. Their team was obviously much stronger than mine, the year is 2017, their midfield triangle made of an awesomely developed bender, ramires and barkley teared my midfield apart as if they were training, this was by far the most consistent midfield trio i ever noticed. Hazard, of course, was a 'no way to stop' threat as Lukaku wasn't throwing away any chances. After a lot of reloads, i was bound to find their way of playing as my last fm 2014 tactical exercise. Let's check their heatmap from the last replay i did. What surprised me at first was how their defensive line had about zero movement, they would stick with that line no matter what, apart from their DL which sometimes would support hazard, but you don't see that at all by their heatmap so how come? Also on this heatmap their CM's are actually further away from their CD line than they were on all the other matches. My second surprise was how was he getting the AML and AMR to play on AMC's position, this was the swarm that was destroying my balance over and over again. On that game i played with what i thought was the same tactic they were using, i believe i was in part right apart from some minor adjustments. Here's the heatmap from the game after against OB for the europa league Why aren't my wingers moving inside like they should? This game ended with a 14-0 for my side on both home and away matches, OB was playing so narrowly and so defensive that that along with our direct passing wouldn't need our wingers to move inside to get the ball. This is what i believe the Mourinho's FM 2014 tactic, and i would like to discuss it with you as i'm sure somewhere i might have missed something. Mentality : Normal Fluidity : Very rigid Team instructions : More direct pass, pass into space, work ball into the box, play from defense, exploit the middle (i believe this is the instruction to get the wingers to move inside), much higher defensive line, stick to positions, hassle opponents, stay on feet, use offside trap. GK: GK/D DL: Wingback/D this is the only defender that would show some support down the flank. DC's: CD/D DR: Fullback/D CML: Deep playmaker/D this is probably the role i'm more uncertain of, it's ramires position and while it doesn't show very well on their heatmap, he would sit even closer to the CD line and never leave it. CMR: Ball winning midfield/D bender's role, might also be a CM/D but the way he would pressure anyone to quickly get the ball back and as the only CM that would actually go a bit further i believe that's his role. AMC: Advanced Midfield/A, might be an advanced playmaker on attack but somehow i doubt it, he would get inside the box but he acted way more defensively than a playmaker, he wouldn't just press a bit and move away like adv playmaker's do. AML: Hazard, i have no doubt he's played as an attacking winger. AMR: Oscar, another uncertainty, i believe he's played as an IF, i'm unsure about his duty tho'. Striker: Advanced forward. Please give it a try and discuss. Due to all indication from guide's on this forum, this tactic, which i believe is the one the AI's using seems a bit unsound taking our guidelines into consideration, yet it works, quite well actually. Do you think this is the way Mourinho's AI plays? What would you change?
  12. Well first of all i didn't meant to confuse you at all, also by all of what i've read around this forum it seems there's a consense that the ME has a bit of an issue with what an actual CCC is. If you have some player with 6 finishing scoring 2 out of 2 then you are giving your opposition amazing chances. If you lost 5 out of 8 games, i don't know what's so surprisingly about your striker regardless of his finishing being on a low form or your team with a low morale, as i've said team chats and private chats, also team talks on matches can help with that. About the playmaker, what you've said about their duties doesn't matter only at some degree and at certain fluidities, i ask any of the moderators or more tactical wise to correct me if i'm wrong as i don't want to lead you wrong, but a good rule of thumb is that the more fluid is your football is the less their duties matter. Make no mistake, their duties will matter on a standard fluidity, if you are watching the full game to understand what's wrong with the tactic you will notice your AP/A will run forward with the ball, an AP/S will also run forward when he can but more often without the ball. The box2box midfield will support both attacking and defensive midfield (both boxes) so he will move forward and backwards on the pitch, so again as i've stated when you lose the ball while attacking you will be vunerable at defense, that's why even a 6 finishing striker is able to score from those. You winger is just not a 'crosser', he's a new passing option, your striker might come deep but he will also run into the box after he passes the ball, if the ball isn't lost, which might happen if he doesn't have options. If your direct deep defensive line doesn't work, if it's inviting too much pressure perhaps you are not using roles or a suitable mentality for what you are trying to do, the same goes for a high pressure tactic, i can tell you that a very high pressure tactic can be very solid defensively by experience, of course that type of tactic also needs fast defenders. Just scrolling by the posts i can see Cleon and RTH was around, and i don't need to read their posts to know they gave you good advice. It seems to me that this might be the first version of FM you are playing, and still if it's not you seem very lost, i can't struggle enough when i say you'd do yourself a huge favor by reading the stickies on this sub forum. http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/375632-Pairs-amp-Combinations-The-Complete-Series-*UPDATED* http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/377489-Creating-A-Tactic-Design-Create-and-Maintain http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/366111-How-to-Play-FM14-A-Twelve-Step-Guide http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/375632-Pairs-amp-Combinations-The-Complete-Series-*UPDATED* Now you might seem intrigued why do you have to read what seems almost a book to be able to understand the game, and i agree with you that a game this complex needs some huge documentation coming with it along with some kind of tutorial, but while that doesn't come, the people from these forums still do a lot of work to help people like me or you, so, once again, take the time to read and learn and after that i'm sure you will find FM more enjoyable.
  13. You just lost 2 games, it's obviously morale will go down, dealing with a bad team form is one of the biggest challenges on the game in my opinion, perhaps have a team meeting? If your striker is missing too much try to motivate him by having a private chat. As far as the tactic goes, it's not normal to be december and your tactic is still no fluid, i guess your frustrating is leading you to do a lot of changes? You can't expect the team to play perfect until the tactic it's fluid. Now about the tactic itself, here's my thoughts, you using 2 central mids where none will hold position, since you use a standard mentality wingers on the AM line do not track back very well either imo, that along with your wingbacks you leave yourself pretty much vunerable to any counter attack, which i assume it happens often, the reason for that is perhaps your players aren't good enough technically and decision wise to play a short fast type of game. Also the fact that you have your AP going into the same space as your IF/A is probably not happening, the same thing is probably happening on the right flank also but on a minor degree. What type of football are you trying to play anyway? Are you trying to play possession football? Or quick direct one? If it's option A, then you should use a higher mentality, push further forward to keep possession on their midfield, hassle, and remove pass into space as there won't be much space but also you are using a type of striker that isn't the top choice to go after through balls. If you are trying to play a quick direct type of football, i'd still get a higher mentality but with a deeper defensive line, a direct quick passing style and roles that can quickly disrupt opposition's attacks. As far as roles, again, perhaps switch the AP/A to a DLP/S with hold position or even roaming or even a DLP/D won't hurt especially if you change to fluid, also perhaps a winger on the right instead of IF? you will have the pitch better covered and more passing options. Of course you will need one of your CM's to run forward, what you shouldn't have is an IF the same side as that CM imo as they will run into the same space often. Hope it helps and no need to cry over a game, good luck
  14. How is the interaction between your CM/A and AP/S? Since CM/A usually advances supporting the flanks and AP cuts inside they might be struggling to find space as they are occupying the same one. Perhaps changing the AP to a W and your CM/S to a DLP/S or your CM/A to an AP/A will get a more fluid football on your right side. Also you are playing with FB's which is okay but i'm afraid with that setup WB's would help more on the attacking phase, i'd keep a FB on the same side of your AP if you change it to a W tho'. Some other points, you might be using too many specialized roles for a fluid mentality, i'd also remove some of your TI's. Control is already quite possession based, although quite attacking at the same time, with retaining possession you might lose key passes due to your players being more conservative. Also disagree with the shorter passing due to the formation itself, especially if you are against teams that play with a DMC i'm afraid that along with the retaining possession that you often will end up losing the ball giving your opponents a chance for a quick counter attack. Push higher up, hassle opponents, run at defence, those are a lot of pressing options for control which already has quite an high defensive line, also reducing the space you have on the front. I'd definitely remove run at defense as in my opinion is the most extreme of them all. Play wider & exploit the middle & shorter passing & keep possession, to me it doesn't make sense, what middle are you exploiting? Your DMC is static, you have both CM's that might sometimes actually get the ball at the AM line or your striker, but then what options do they have? Perhaps your attacking CM will run into the box or your IF and they manage to do a through ball but that seems dreamy against good defenses. Exploit the middle also makes your team play narrower, at the same time you are telling them to play wider. I'd remove exploit the middle as in my opinion the option that's probably crippling most of your play. Hope it helps, best luck.
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