Neil Train Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 Hi, I usually let the TC sort my mentalities and D-Line but i'm developing a workable back 3 tactic, quite effective to be honest, but could do with some extra attacking punch and to be more solid defensively. the same as everyone, i would guess. Nought wrong with trying to score more goals and concede fewer. so, my THINKING is that although playing balanced/standard, i'd like my players more compact. that's partly due to wanting to play slower tempo, shorter passing, and, again, to score more and concede less so have my players better picking each other out and communicating, and allowing my opponent less space. thing with mentalities is i just hit and hope. eg have set my anchor man to the same as my DCC/cover, because it seems to have sysmettry, but I HAVE NO COHERENT THOUGHT PROCESS AS TO *WHY* I'M SETTING CERTAIN LEVELS OF MENTALITY. is there a philosophy around this that i could get to grips with, some way of understanding WHY i'd like certain levels of mentality? usually when i do something i have an idea, a reason for why i'm doing it. am having trouble with this mentality theory..... EDIT forgot. D-line. again, want to try and work out WHY i have it set to a specific level, and the effect this will have on the closeness of the rest of the team. help? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
furiousuk Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 Ok, the most basic way of thinking of d-line is that you have 3 levels: high, medium and deep. A high D-Line 'squashes' the pitch and restricts space between the lines, a low D-line elongates the pitch and creates space between the lines. Width works in a similar way only 'play wider' creates gaps whereas 'play narrower' can restrict gaps. As for mentality, well that is a little more complex as it effects everything from positioning to ball usage. I find the simplest way to think about it is to establish a 'team mentality' and work from there, this is what the TC does. Say your team mentality is 10, a middle value. Defensive players would be less than 10 (for example, 7), support players would be 10 whereas attacking players would be a higher mentality (say, 13). If you went more attacking then your base team mentality would change to, say, 14, so your defensive players would be one 11, support on 14 and attack on 17. This matches the balanced philosophy although other philosophies match the theory of a base team mentality. Another, more realistic in my opinion, way of thinking is that mentality affects the basic formational position of a player. For example, an AMC that plays at a mentality higher than the team mentality will find himself (in FM) operating as an advanced AMC whereas an AMC operating at a lower mentality than the team mentality will find himself operating slightly lower than the AMC position (or even more withdrawn if the mentalities are more different). The effect is similar (but not exactly comparable) in terms of ball usage or defensive responsibility. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Train Posted October 24, 2011 Author Share Posted October 24, 2011 THANKS DUDE! was really happy to get such a comprehensive answer, i'll post again once i've completely grasped your thinking and when i've determined my "philosophy" based on this. as SFraser used to say, everyone has an "idea" ~ for example about how they want to play. and i HAVE this, i'm determined to have a dominant midfield, a solid defence and some guile going forward, and i'm SUCCESSFULLY implementing a 3-man backline, but i wasn't sure about mentality and d-line. one final question: am i right in assuming that a more compact team (in terms of pure TC a more fluid philosophy and in my case similar mentality settings) will enable me to defend in greater numbers? is strange, rigid is meant to be better for shape, but my thinking is that defenders and midfield on similar mentalities will defend better, in numbers, and be better able to communicate/win the ball/distribute the ball. am i onto something there? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
furiousuk Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 The general consensus is that players with good mental attributes will be able to defend (AND ATTACK) better as a unit when given the freedom to play fluidly. My experience is that less-able players are also able to play this way so long as they are generally more mentally able than their usual divisional opponents. As SFraser used to say, it's up to you, any failures are yours (due to each game being different) and, equally, each success is yours for the very same reason. I play fluidly (actually, I play balanced but it plays more like fluid, ho hum), that's not to say rigid isn't an equally successful philosophy given the right stimulus. You're also correct, a small pitch (exacerbated by play narrower and pushing up higher) will allow you to defend more as a compact unit. A large pitch, in contrast, can also be defended compactly but will require an immense level of work rate & positioning (or marking) in order to attempt to make the pitch smaller (note the word 'attempt', there are times when you want a compact pitch and there are times when you want a more expansive approach). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Train Posted October 24, 2011 Author Share Posted October 24, 2011 well i'm doing similar: i've amended mentalities (used the defence as a base and downed the attacking players to be similar, not too far spaced) but have really upped the CF of most players, so i'm playing quite fluid i guess. i always look for decent mental attributes and have given my creative midfielders some real freedom to play as they choose. still dont get this though: if fluid is more likely to have team playing as a unit, why is rigid/v.rigid advertised as being harder to break down? surely such a spacing of mentalities will mean that ok, the team has some shape, but it's less compact and has less players defending!??! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
furiousuk Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 Rigid/v.rigid just changes some settings of your players, of which I believe mentality is a big decider (I don't have the game fired up at the mo so can't be sure). Something I can be sure of: rigid is only more defensively sound in the right scenario. Realistically, if your players are awesome mentally then why would you want to restrict them with a set of rigid instructions? FM is similar. I play balanced and my back-up tactic has 8 out of 11 players on the same mentality which is effectively more fluid than fluid and I have the best defence in the league (even when I wasn't the best team in the Prem). Any system has its' strengths and weaknesses, you have to decide whether you think the strengths outweigh the weaknesses for your system (or not) and act appropriately. I know you're a 'good' player who makes 'good' decisions (based on both experience and asking questions of others) so my advice would be that you trust your instincts for FM12. Watch and learn. I don't know for sure but I'd guess that the ME isn't that different for FM12 which makes your job of mastering it easier. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Train Posted October 24, 2011 Author Share Posted October 24, 2011 thanks, that's the second compliment i've received in a week and, although flitting between systems recently i've stayed very solid defensively so yeah, i do believe i've got to grips with the ME over recent months. part of this is due to me not being an expert in RL tactics previously, so i've compensated for this by watching a LOT of full games in slo-mo and watched the movement of my players and how they counter the opposition in different scenarios. i know that amending the mentalities myself is the same as changing philosophy and i'm currently of the opinion that mentalities lowered will make me more compact: harder to break down yet keeping the attackers within range and easier to get the ball to them to do their "thang". i did read that someone had questioned SI about changes to the ME in '12 and other than graphics there aren't any. yes, i do use these forums a lot (gave up on FM-Britain and the dugout and FM-base because there are too few people online at any one time) to ask questions and one day i intend to write a beginners guide to the early stages of a game: everything up to and including pre-season because i really want to give sthg back after taking a lot of advice from those cleverer at this game than i am, and believe that in building a team, training schedules and tactics and a decent backroom staff i really DO have some decent insights. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbobBRFC Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 a lot of quality information on this thread, never fully understood how to use push up/play narrower etc so cheers lads. A quick question on this, when would you make the pitch "smaller" or when would you spread out? I presume if the team your playing is finding a lot of gaps in the channels then you need to compact things up a bit? Would that be correct. Im not bad at game but no where near the best and I think it's understanding this part of the ME that could really help me Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 a lot of quality information on this thread, never fully understood how to use push up/play narrower etc so cheers lads. A quick question on this, when would you make the pitch "smaller" or when would you spread out? I presume if the team your playing is finding a lot of gaps in the channels then you need to compact things up a bit? Would that be correct. Im not bad at game but no where near the best and I think it's understanding this part of the ME that could really help me Pretty much yeah that's what I do. In my current save I've just played Paulista away from home. They were crowding the midfield and I couldn't get a shot on goal (I use a 442 and they played 4222). So after not having a single shot after 31 minutes I decided to go as wide as I could and used the exploit wings shouts. I scored a goal within 1 minute of making such a small alteration and ended up winning the game with ease 0-4. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbobBRFC Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 Pretty much yeah that's what I do. In my current save I've just played Paulista away from home. They were crowding the midfield and I couldn't get a shot on goal (I use a 442 and they played 4222). So after not having a single shot after 31 minutes I decided to go as wide as I could and used the exploit wings shouts. I scored a goal within 1 minute of making such a small alteration and ended up winning the game with ease 0-4. not bad at all, Sir Alex would be proud . I presume when to use what is all trial and error and see what works well against what formation, going to attempt to utilise this in my current save which I don't see being very long term then once I can use it well start the long term save. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 not bad at all, Sir Alex would be proud . I presume when to use what is all trial and error and see what works well against what formation, going to attempt to utilise this in my current save which I don't see being very long term then once I can use it well start the long term save. Use the note function and make notes of how you've beat certain sides that play 442, 433 etc. Then next time you come up against them you'll have a better idea of what worked or what didn't . If you're not that bothered about your current save, then just keep playing the same game over and over and learn what the shouts actually do. Then when you understand about that game try a different one against a different formation and so on Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbobBRFC Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 Use the note function and make notes of how you've beat certain sides that play 442, 433 etc. Then next time you come up against them you'll have a better idea of what worked or what didn't .If you're not that bothered about your current save, then just keep playing the same game over and over and learn what the shouts actually do. Then when you understand about that game try a different one against a different formation and so on Thats a class idea with the same game over and over again, especially against formations i do badly against (Damm 4-5-1). Where is this notes tab? I've seen it for specific players but not just a general notes tab? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 Thats a class idea with the same game over and over again, especially against formations i do badly against (Damm 4-5-1). Where is this notes tab? I've seen it for specific players but not just a general notes tab? On your club screen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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