how to dominate the midfield in a 4231 formation?

[el_magico89]

whenever I try to create a tactic with a formation, which includes wingers and an amc (4411,4231), I always face the same problems.

no matter, how strong my two holding players are, no matter how their settings are, I just cant get them play the way I imagine.

I mean, is it really that difficult to place them in the centre of the field, playin a bit deeper and dont trying to get out of position and so building a two man wall in front of the backline?

how on earth is that possible in this game?

when I look at manchester united, real madrid or mourinhos inter milan, they all play a formation, which includes two holding midfielders, one attacking and two offensive wingers. why do these teams have such a good defence and dominating midfield?

its certainly not, because they have AMCs with good defensive attributes, at least Özil and Snejder are not famous for their workrate.

so whats the reason behind this success?

in the game, Ive tried out several settings.

first, I tried it with a bit lower mentality, lower closing down settings and lose zonal marking, as I dont want them to chase the opposition players, so that they leave their positions and there is a hole in the centre of the field.

well, what I could observe with these settings were, that they were too far away from the opposition midfielders, and with too far, I mean, that these could pass arround in front of my own box without getting attacked and had plenty of time to make that killerpass.

when I use tight zonal, they tend to close down the players even on the flanks and I often get caught off.

with man marking, its even worse, since they start closing down the opposition midfielders in their own half and there is a huge gap between my backline and the midfield, so that the opposition striker just need to step back a bit, one of my center backs follows him and then he can play the killer ball into the channel.

well, I thought, ok, if the opposition is using a deep lying forward, in order to take advantage of the huge gap, I just let my backline play bit higher and so reduce the gap.

well, sounds logically, insofar you have quick center backs, if not, you are really getting problems.

so what do you think about that guys?

is it possible, to play a 4231 system, without having those world class players, SFrase does in his Manchester United career?

SFraser has shown in his article, that playing a 4231 formation can have a lot of advantages,

but cmon guys, who of you believe, that this would also work with less quality players?

with less quality I mean still world class players, but not after 5-6 seasons training, when they have nearly each mental attribute on 18-20.

I hope some of you can show me some examples, that you can also have tight midfield with 2 holding players.

I dont want to have any download links of tactics, which certain users have created, I want a serious discussion and somebody, who can explain me the reason, why I face these kind of problems.

[Rou\'Taran]

I've had reasonably good success playing a 4-2-3-1 variant. I have 2 DM, LM/RM, AM and ST. At home i usually control 55% of possession. Both DMs play as deep lying playmakers on defend with hold the ball. Everything is on rare except TTB which is on mixed. This way they keep their position and always offer a passing option.

Depending on the formation the opponents are playing, i switch the marking and pressing for these 2 DM.

Say for example, the enemy is playing a flat 4-4-2. Then I have the DM's man mark the the opposing CM and have hard pressing. If there's CMs and AM's in the opponent's formation, i switch them to zonal and own half pressing. Then depending on how far forward the oppoenents central players are pushing up the field, i raise or reduce the pressing.

If i constantly find their CM's moving upfield and overloading the area infront of the D then i ease off the pressing to take away space for example, reduce the AM's mentality a little and have him press more to pressure the midfield from the front. I dont think there's much success to be had unless I make small changes like this on a game to game basis depending on how things are flowing.

Something that destroyed the team I played last week might very well be my undoing this week. But overall i try to keep something available on each "band" as i prefer to play a slightly shorter passing, slower tempo game.

Hope this is useful.

[Marsupian]

I use tight zonal marking with default closing down (deep lying playmaker on defend).

[furiousuk]

Zonal marking seems appropriate for a 4231 for reasons that SFraser specified in his Meet The System thread. The shape of the formation forces play out wide, away from your goal but you'll still have to deal with it when it's there. I use zonal marking (probably tight as well but I can't be sure as it's my 2nd formation which I don't use that often) but I know that I use a lot of closing down. I want to force teams into a dead alley and then finish off the threat by closing down hard. My CBs, CMs and, to a lesser extent, my FBs are excellent at this but I am not a top team. I'm a Europa team at best (finished 8th and 6th in last 2 Premiership seasons) so none of these players are in the top echelon of world players but they have immense fitness, decent decision making and decent defensive abilities.

If you're not winning the midfield battle it may have more to do with the players you're employing rather than the tactics.

[byyy]

4-2-3-1 deep struggle against normal 4-2-3-1 with 2 cm(

[el_magico89]

4-2-3-1 deep struggle against normal 4-2-3-1 with 2 cm(

why?

logically, it should be much more stabil, since youre playing with two strong deep holding midfielders.

but im trying it for 2 fm versions and still couldnt get this work.

no matter, who the opposition is, they can easily break through my midfield.

i just think, that its nearly impossible, to have the same success with 4231deep in fm like in real life.

[Guest nik1313]

i play 4-2-3-1 deep:

focus on your staff. you have to train your players in a balanced way. You need depth in attacking, you need good marking,not so much pressing, and width.

your wide players should also have good positioning similar to your holding midfielder's attribute.

in press conferences do not talk for attractive,attacking football be more cautious at the way you expect your team to play

last,if you want to hold even more defensive positioning use rigid philosophy and do not press more your oppoments.

[el_magico89]

i play 4-2-3-1 deep:

focus on your staff. you have to train your players in a balanced way. You need depth in attacking, you need good marking,not so much pressing, and width.

your wide players should also have good positioning similar to your holding midfielder's attribute.

in press conferences do not talk for attractive,attacking football be more cautious at the way you expect your team to play

last,if you want to hold even more defensive positioning use rigid philosophy and do not press more your oppoments.

when i badly press them, than they will even more controll my midfield, since they can pass arround and have all the time to look for the best moment to give that killer ball.

[Guest nik1313]

you can use the shouts and ask your players to "get stuck in". this way they will leave their position only to mark the closest oppoment who has control of the ball.

i use players for AMR,AML,AMC position who are not only offencively oriented. positioning and marking and concentration above 10(attribute value) and averall if your team has strengh and tackling abilities is also a plus.

ofcourse balance,stamina and not slow players are also critical factors to perform all the team as a unit well defensively.

[byyy]

why?

logically, it should be much more stabil, since youre playing with two strong deep holding midfielders.

Probably because of the gap between defenders and AMC..

i just think, that its nearly impossible, to have the same success with 4231deep in fm like in real life.

Yep:(

[Camb0dia]

I have been running it with my Man city team. So far its going well, i have De jong and Toure as the two DM's, one set as an anchor man, the other as a DM support. i have the amc on adv playmaker on support, which seems to reduce the issue of having too much of a gap between the two lines

[deserter]

I don't specifically play with this formation, but this is the core of what I would do:

- Holding midfielders should be defending in a relatively passive zonal way. They should still pick up and close down anyone who ventures to their area.

- The 3 attacking midfielders (wingers and amc) should be defending in an aggressive way. These 3 players should carry out most of the actual defensive work, so that the holding midfielders can concentrate on holding the space.

For example: if the amc doesn't pick up an opposition player, he will be free and receive a pass. if the amc doesn't now close down the opposition player then one of the holding midfielders has to do it and the shape is compromised while the opposition has too much time on the ball and anything can happen at this point.

Furthermore it would have been better if the holding midfielder was in position to mark the said opposition player out in the first place. This would have left you with only one holding midfielder, but the shape would have been intact and the opposition wouldn't have had that much space and time.

So, to play like you wish to, your front 4 has to do the most of the work.

I would suggest you to try following roles:

Defensive forward/support,

defensive wingers/support,

attacking midfielder/support with full closing down,

central midfielders/defend (I assume MC's instead of DM's) with zonal marking, not tight.

Team instruction: man marking, less closing down.

That setup is a bit over the top, but you should see what I'm after. Then you can tweak the roles to something more sensible.

[Boltman]

I have a 4-2-3-1 deep working a treat with Classic tactics. I just don't trust the tactic creator at all and have never used it in any version of FM. The classic sliders are so familiar to me that I feel comfortable that I can control my team's style of play and tweak instructions in order to achieve the precise result I desire. I suspect very strongly the Tactic creator is just far too limited and restrictive to achieve satisfactory results with this formation. I'm even more convinced there's no way I'd have been able to re-create Bielsa's 3-3-1-3 with the success I did using Tactic Creator either.