Fm live means si staff are taking their eye off the ball?

[Powermonger]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ov Collyer:

That's right wwfan.

Fact is, using the match engine in two very different contexts helps it's progress in both. In FML people tend to play some wild formations, and are generally more attack-minded. This pushes the match engine in ways it doesn't get pushed so often inside FM and thus brings to the fore any issues relating to this. When these get addresses, future releases of FM benefit as the ME becomes more solid as a result.

Certainly, FML has no negative impact on the development of FM, as it's an entirely different development and test team.

Any problems people have with FM are nothing to do with FML, but the vast majority of the evidence, both statistical and critical is that FM2008 is our best release to date. That doesn't mean we are blind to any problems being reported on these forums by the most ardent fans of the game, which we are always very grateful for and the lads on the FM team are and have always been committed to improving the game and if there is something being brought up on the forums repeatedly it *will* get discussed amongst the team. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ov, with the advent of the ME shared so closely with FM and FML, does this mean it will be even more diffcult to make changes to the tactical side of the game?

May of us would like to see the tactical side of the game refined more and made more accessable but with the ME being shared so closely between the two titles I worry that we will never see any changes with tactics in the future. We haven't seen any changes to tactics since the slider system was introduced in CM4 which is worrying in itself and we'd like to see some changes.

[Ov Collyer]

It shouldn't really make a different to be honest - any changes made or instigated by either game would just be replicated to the other.

I know there are some ideas floating about the FM team with regards to tactics - if these were to come to fruition then the FML team would just adopt them too.

In fact, we'd probably find that if we didn't, we wouldn't be able to use the latest ME so we'd be forced to anyway.

[Powermonger]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ov Collyer:

It shouldn't really make a different to be honest - any changes made or instigated by either game would just be replicated to the other.

I know there are some ideas floating about the FM team with regards to tactics - if these were to come to fruition then the FML team would just adopt them too.

In fact, we'd probably find that if we didn't, we wouldn't be able to use the latest ME so we'd be forced to anyway. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Great...thank you for the clarrification. My reasoning was that I was thinking that the ME was very reliant on the slider system and adding a second title with a dependency of the current ME would make changes to the slider system even less appetising to do.

[George Graham]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Patrick.Bateman:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tom Leeburn:

FM08 is to me, the worst si release for several years, and the support (in the form of patches and/or responding to the forum) has been equally lacklustre.Personally i cant help but feel this is related to the development of Fm08.

I know this issue has been discussed before, and responded to (Si tell us that Fm live hasnt reduced the number of staff that work on football manager.)

I however am looking at this from another angle. I suspect that the staff at si are tending to play fm live in there spare time, when in the past they would have just played fm. This means that they are not playing it enough to noticed problems in the match engine, registration issues etc.

Essentially a layer of the testing is being lost.

Maybe they need to hire more in house games testers! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you think FM is counting too much bugs, you should try Fifa Manager.

That game is crashing and show-stopping all the time.

My FM2008 didn’t see one single showstopper at all and I play it rather a lot.

Sure, it’s having bugs. But relax, it’s software! Due its complex nature, software of any decent size will always contain bugs. Doesn’t matter how much effort you put in testing.

I’m pretty sure the SI people do not play FM all the time in their spare time. They go out, drink beers and get drunk, meet people, go to the football, read magazines and books, go to the movies, have sex, etc…

And this is good, because lock people always to the same situation and they will ****** soon. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ive got Fifa Manager and it doesnt crash- I dont think you can assume that crashes are bugs as the issue could be down to peoples hardware/software config- same goes for any crashes in FM.

The game just isnt very good- although not awful.

As for people relaxing- by saying this I think you miss out on why FM is such a success. Somehow SI have tapped into this rabid thing that makes you a football fan.

Its not very logical but the feeling and anger certainly translate into FM, there isnt much logic as to why we feel so strongly about our teams (after all that is "only a game" too!) yet we do, and somehow SI have encapsulated that into a game.

Also I believe SI do play their game as theyve always said that originally they created it for themselves because nobody had made a footie management game how they (Ov and Paul) liked.

How much of this has carried on I dont know, but you would think and hope that the team do play the game as they need to play it as a player to understand and appreciate where it succeeds and fails. I cant think it could work any other way, and imo it is a requirement for the games success, as when FM work it is not because it ticks all the boxes- it is because it feels "just right".

[Ched]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by George Graham:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tom Leeburn:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ter:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">slightly unrelated but there seems to be 11 SI staff in GQ atm, surely some kind of record, must be feeding time at SI towers. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or a mail has gone round about a feature posted on the forums that we're discussing via e-mail. Which happens a lot. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Isn't it refreshing to have a few threads worth reading in GQ the moment .

Player ratings.

Match engine.

(See what you can do Mitja when you stop moaning).

Critique of transfer mechanism.

Player development.

When was the last time that there were 4 decent threads on the first page of GQ at the same time.

Maybe if there were more of them and less in the style of the opening post of this thread, then the FM World would be a happier little place. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yes but how many of them have had any official response from si? (by that a mean a post by someone whose expertise relates to the area being discussed, rather than for example Ter who posts more than most at si, but freely admits that he doesnt know anymore about these issues for example than the rest of us.

To me the lack of response leaves you feeling that you are whistling in the wind, and is very frustrating. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agree- although I appreciate that SI should be spending their time on the game, as somebody who has been on these forums since CM2 its obvious that SIs presence on these forums has declined over the last couple of releases.

Now for me there is a lot of brand loyalty that SI have earnt over those 10 years- much of it has been because in the past their customer support has been flawless, and they really fostered and were actively a part of a genuine community.

Now as somebody who started in IT 17 years ago I know how we all change as regards our work- Im the same person out of work as I always was but as Im now management I am much more professional, and I appreciate that as CM/FM has grown and moved to Sega that they also will have had to evolve. But regardless of this communication needs to be maintained (especially after a release like FM08 that hasnt exactly been universally praised on these forums)- maybe not from SI directly but from some official source.

Which is all fine and dandy when it going ok- but just look at these forums, there isnt a lot of positivity towards the latest release is there?

I saw Ovs comment which quite rightly says that statistically (I assume this means sales) and critically FM08 is their best release, but imo this is misleading.

SI have a captive audience as currently they have no genuine competition and even though CM has shown signs of improvement ( and in this players opinion fresher ideas than SI is coming up with to) its damaged by past outings as many will disregard it automatically.

Secondly the reviews have never been critical of FM- its assumed that its the best and even CM4 got universally good reviews in the popular PC mags. They also failed to pick up on the closing down bug- which is strange as you can guarantee that they would mention bugs in other releases but somehow FM is untouchable when it comes to genuine objective criticism in the PC press.

Im sure SI work damn hard on each release, but from this gamers perspective a lot of the hard work and brand loyalty that has been built over the years is in danger of evaporating. The atmosphere in the forums are testament to this- as we see people signing up for the first time just to complain about FM08, proving that its not just the hardcore fans who notice these things.

Lastly this series is in a rut- fresh and innovative ideas are practically non-existent, this year the new additions were paper thin and by and large cosmetic (match flow), or in areas where people just didnt care (International Management). Yet longstanding issues or poorly realised areas remain untouched such as the transfer market, the media, player interaction etc.

Thats why I think people have focused so much on the match engine- as it appears that from the potential of 8.0 that this was going to be FM08s saving grace, especially as apart from the obvious issues it looked like a radical change and was really looking good.

At some point your rivals may get it right, and then SI may genuinely see how damaging a release like FM08 has really been. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Excellent points. Pretty much sums up what i tihnk is going on at SI. While i appreciate each release gets greeted with crticism, this one has been one of the most dissappointing CM/FMs i've played.

Using sales as a gauge (ditto reviews) is an exceptionally limited way to approach reviewing a product, as sales are as often as not generated by reputation (which SI still have an outstanding rep - FM08 can't have damaged it that much. Yet) and promotion, i've yet to see an advert for Fifa manager or CM....

Similarly reviews are often affected by reviewer bias - how else could they not have noticed that you get sacked for over achieving??? Due to time constraints writing reviews, and the desire to appeal to the reader, i would take these with a pinch of salt.

FM08 may be the most successful statistically - but the Fifa series was for quite some time the most successful statistically.

Trust me, FM08 is a step backward from 07, (it had potential - if the match engine and board conf had been perfect it could well have been a wonderful game) i just don't want to see SI starting to slip into an EA like slump, and think, if it sells it's good.

[Ov Collyer]

By "statistical" and "critical" I don't just mean sales and magazine reviews although I disagree that if you took every single review of FM done in all the different countries that it gets reviewed that you would find that they were "often" biased; as you say though, it may be that they haven't had the time to play it as much as some of the "hardcore" folk who frequent these forums and so aren't as affected or bothered or have encountered the perceived problems reported, but in many ways this probably makes them more representative of Joe Public who buys the game, takes it home and plays it. He too simply may not notice some of the same things you guys do.

Of course, that doesn't make the presence of any such problems any less undesirable, which is why SI has always and continues to pay attention and read (if not necessarily write in) the forums and do our best to improve the game as much as we can from all the fantastic feedback we receive - whether this is through releasing patches, which of course ideally we would never do, or enhancing things for the next version.

It's never a case of taking our "eye off the ball" either. George Graham hit the nail on the head above - CM was originally created "for the hell of it" for our Paul and I's enjoyment. It's never been a case of looking over our shoulders at what the competition may or may not be doing. We've always focused on our own work and that continues to this day albeit with a bigger team and a more organized way of working.

[Tom Leeburn]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ov Collyer:

I think the lack of responses from SI folk in the forums comes down to a couple of things:

1) lack of time. The team are inevitably very busy. Often in the past, forum contributions from SI dev people has been done in spare time. As the game has grown in popularity and more people have visited the forums it's been increasingly unrealistic, without change, to keep onto of it all.

2) probably a fear of dipping their toes into the river and being bitten by piranhas. i.e. sadly there have been an element of people on here who feel they can be really quite rude and abusive to us and that can put off the less thick-skinned people from posting (especially in their spare time!)

However, we are making plans to improve the situation so that the people who are good enough to post constructive feedback in the forums are given more feedback from people with the answers and in due course we hope to have something in place. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sounds good, and thanks for posting in this thread.

What are you doing in Istanbul? -looking for outsourcing!

[Michael F]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:

Tom. You've only recently signed up to the forums so let me explain.

This forum, (Football Manager General Discussion), is a place where we, (the users of the game), discuss the game in general terms. What it's not is a place to demand or even expect, questions to be asked of SI.

In the poast there has been significant response from SI, (and there still is in any topic that piques the interest), but be under no illusions.... THIS FORUM IS NOT HERE FOR US TO QUESTION SI. IT IS HERE FOR US TO DISCUSS AMONGST OURSELVES.

Obviously we do ask SI questions from time to time and in the main, if the question is well presented and of a topic that has not been "done to death", then you will usually get a response somewhere even if it is only an acknowledgment that the situation is currently being looked into. Also the recent negativityb on the forums is just one reason why a number of SI staff post less frequently at the moment than they have done in the past.

The sooner we stop expecting SI to respond to every thread then the smoother this place will run.

SI read a LOT of these threads and the good threads generally keep getting bumped just so they don't get missed.

The threads that we've list above are decent discussions in their own right without the need for comment from SI.

The reason for this may be that, (using the player ratings for example), they have already commented i the bugs forum that this is being looked into and there may, (or may not), be a change to this in the next patch.

This forum is General Discussion, not General Questions for SI. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Great post Jimbo

That basically sums up why this place is how it is atm. I bet if Kris or any of the techy geeks at SI dug up some statistics to see how many times a member of SI

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>

<LI>Times per day they visited GQ

<LI>How long they spent logged into GQ for each visit

<LI>How many threads they clicked on in GQ per visit

Id expect between the 30+ staff SI have they must clock up alot of time on here. I think it all comes down to the increased expectations of fans putting pressure on SI. SI are not required to provide a forum for people who play their game and they are not also required to respond to people's comments, neither are they required to provide a patch but they do

Ive seen quite a few members of SI answering questions out of office hours when they should be with their families, namely Ov Collyer, Miles, Ter, M.Vaughan, G.Kelly, M.Duffy. I remember Miles doing an experiement on xmas day evening just to disprove a theory that the game cheats to a member who posted on this forum, now where can you say you see service like that on christmas day?

[George Graham]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ov Collyer:

It's never a case of taking our "eye off the ball" either. George Graham hit the nail on the head above - CM was originally created "for the hell of it" for our Paul and I's enjoyment. It's never been a case of looking over our shoulders at what the competition may or may not be doing. We've always focused on our own work and that continues to this day albeit with a bigger team and a more organized way of working. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ov- a little bit off topic but it might be of interest to others, a question:

What areas of FM do yourself and Paul particularly enjoy, and what parts frustrate in terms of you want to see them much improved?

Particularly as we could say the same but only the SI team can know what is achievable.

Eg- Ive always loved the match engine and the quality of data - especially after years of the original speccy FM, Football Director with only "The Double" and "Tracksuit Manager" coming close to being realistic.

Whereas Ive always hoped that internal communication with your board, players and staff would improve- but do realise that realistic and organic AI is no mean feat.