Signing 16-18 year old players

This is by design as in real life players often don't make this kind of major upheaval so young in their development - there are of course examples, so we're not saying it can't happen. It is something we're reviewing in relation to the balance and appreciate you taking the time to raise it here. 

13 minutes ago, Neil Brock said:

This is by design as in real life players often don't make this kind of major upheaval so young in their development - there are of course examples, so we're not saying it can't happen. It is something we're reviewing in relation to the balance and appreciate you taking the time to raise it here. 

Thanks for the reply.

Has this been a conscious decision by developers as it's literally changed from fm22 in a major way. Its not just rare at the moment but under certain criteria the player won't even entertain the idea, regardless of the size of the club. 

 

For example the big wonderkid Endrick. In real life hes being courted by Chelsea/Real Madrid and other big sides but if you start a new game right now in full release and try to enter contract negotiations he flat out refuses. I'm a few years into my beta game as arsenal but any regens under the age limit wont even consider a contract whereas in previous games they'd agree a  deal to sign when they came of age. 

 

I know myself and others are hoping this can be reverted. 

To add more detail i think the specific change in question is that. A player will not enter contract negotiations to join a team he is not eligible to play for on the date the transfer is to be completed.

 

Previously he would enter negotiations but the transfer would take place at the earliest possible date that the player would be eligible to play. So for example under the old system, a european team could agree a fee and contract for endrick and the transfer would complete at that later date(usually the first transfer window after he turns 18)

I would echo this.

A thread here talks to the issue in depth with lots of complaints.

In real life you can sign players on pre-contract agreements. The bug in my opinion, is you cannot seemingly sign anyone on a pre contract agreement where the player has any stature in the game. Playing as Tottenham, I would expect to be able to sign up and coming players; sure, I may have to promise loads of playing time, and high wages comparatively for their ability but this is how it works. Sancho & bellingham are obvious examples but again see the thread people have commented a lot on this.

For me, it's almost killed the game. Given I can no longer find a gem to develop. I have to wait until they're 18, signed a contract & cost $50m

It's frustrating to see developers of the game cite this as realistic improvement. Realistic is messi leaving argentina at the age of 13 as anyone would want to play for barca is realistic. Fabregas leaving barca at 15, etc. It happens constantly. If you want to talk about realism you'd allow 16 yr olds to move abroad because mums and dads have been promised jobs to make the whole thing legal.

 

 

Just to be clear on this one, rules have changed in real life which have prevented overseas players joining clubs which wasn't the case in previous years - especially in the UK. This is reflected in game by this being more realistic.

It's become a lot rarer in real life football - we don't change things just for the sake of annoying people or trying to make it harder, we do so based on real life factors.

Saying that we are looking at it and it is being fine-tuned based on feedback both from in-house comments and the community. Thanks. 

I was coming to raise this also.

Seems like a total wall. I am no expert on rules in real life in UK but are we saying that it’s no longer allowed (in real life) for a top PL club to offer a pre contract to a player from abroad? 

So even if club accept they can’t join until 18 or have to loan out for work permit reasons, no bid can be made?

Just seems like if a top PL team came knocking for a 16 year old youth player, they’d at least want to hear what they’d offer or the vision they have for their development before making decision. 

Appreciate its being looked into.

On 18/11/2022 at 23:38, Neil Brock said:

Just to be clear on this one, rules have changed in real life which have prevented overseas players joining clubs which wasn't the case in previous years - especially in the UK. This is reflected in game by this being more realistic.

It's become a lot rarer in real life football - we don't change things just for the sake of annoying people or trying to make it harder, we do so based on real life factors.

Saying that we are looking at it and it is being fine-tuned based on feedback both from in-house comments and the community. Thanks. 

Can confirm the change was made specifically for clubs in UK?

According to the FIFA rules, players between 16 -18 are still allowed to be transfered within EU or EEA.

Another case of the game being too UK centric. The rule was made only for the UK but SI decided to apply for everywhere else it in the EU. Which doesn't make sense.

EU clubs are full of 16 and 17yo players poached abroad. PSV U18 have presumably 5 players of this kind:

https://www.transfermarkt.com/psv-eindhoven-u18/startseite/verein/81337

And I can provide more evidence if it helps.

 

I would also add that the new rules shouldn't matter too much because clubs can still pre-agree on a future transfer.

On 18/11/2022 at 14:38, Neil Brock said:

Just to be clear on this one, rules have changed in real life which have prevented overseas players joining clubs which wasn't the case in previous years - especially in the UK. This is reflected in game by this being more realistic.

It's become a lot rarer in real life football - we don't change things just for the sake of annoying people or trying to make it harder, we do so based on real life factors.

Saying that we are looking at it and it is being fine-tuned based on feedback both from in-house comments and the community. Thanks. 

 

It's frustrating for players of decades to be giving advice on the game, for a developer to simply disagree & say we're all wrong.

The real world is people working around this legislation. But if we want to be "real" the pre-contract is real, happens all the time & is a broken mechanic because it simply won't allow a player to sign in advance of their transfer date. Can you please listen and acknowledge this part of it. Neymar signed way before he could leave, same as vinicius, same as rodrigo. Alvarez for city the same. This is seemingly impossible now & is unrealistic.

Irrespective of the UK law, that shouldn't impact the ability to sign younger players in advance of the legal transfer date,

 

Hi, to clarify, you can still arrange a transfer for players before turning 18yo in FM23, but it is more difficult if the proposed transfer date is more than 12 months.

Like everything in FM, we never stop looking for improvement, and your feedback is an important factor in how we improve the game. 

As mentioned in previous comments, we believe FM23 's transfer system is in the best state yet, and we are planning to improve it further in future updates.

Thanks.

On 25/11/2022 at 10:11, Jimmy Wong said:

Hi, to clarify, you can still arrange a transfer for players before turning 18yo in FM23, but it is more difficult if the proposed transfer date is more than 12 months.

Like everything in FM, we never stop looking for improvement, and your feedback is an important factor in how we improve the game. 

As mentioned in previous comments, we believe FM23 's transfer system is in the best state yet, and we are planning to improve it further in future updates.

Thanks.

Wow this really remove so much enjoyment out of scouting for cheap wonderkids..... almost nobody want to join you. And as soon as they turn 18 the price for them sky rockets. This should be fixed.

 

I can to some extend understand why a EU team cannot not sign every 16 year old from Asia, africa, South america etc. But it seems odd, that i as a Danish team cannot attract a 16 old player from lets say Latvia to me, with a good contract.

 

Surely in real life this happens a lot, where the club in questions provide the player and their family with perks.

 

Please fix this, there are so many small things with FM 23 that takes away to enjoyment of the game, dont let this be another one!

On 25/11/2022 at 09:11, Jimmy Wong said:

Hi, to clarify, you can still arrange a transfer for players before turning 18yo in FM23, but it is more difficult if the proposed transfer date is more than 12 months.

Like everything in FM, we never stop looking for improvement, and your feedback is an important factor in how we improve the game. 

As mentioned in previous comments, we believe FM23 's transfer system is in the best state yet, and we are planning to improve it further in future updates.

Thanks.

No - you're not listening. You're just explaining how and why the updates you have made are correct. The opinions of the players are seemingly unimportant. In reality no requests for this update have been made by players & it's so severe that you simply cannot sign players before 18 (with the very small / odd exception). So whatever excuses as a developer you're trying to make, you've made a terrible hash of it & it's not even close to realistic.

I've purchased FM every year for over a decade but I can honestly say, not that it is a big deal for you, that I won't buy it again.

You've trashed the whole point of the game.

Generally it would be beneficial to read the information provided with the update over on the general discussion forum. 

It was mentioned by Jimmy in the post that you've quoted, we had plans to make further adjustments in this area we feel better reflects the reality and some changes have now been implemented. 

On 04/12/2022 at 02:52, Michael Sant said:

Generally it would be beneficial to read the information provided with the update over on the general discussion forum. 

It was mentioned by Jimmy in the post that you've quoted, we had plans to make further adjustments in this area we feel better reflects the reality and some changes have now been implemented. 

ok - so I've seen the update, updated the game & now it's basically the same or worse.

We can attract the best 18 yr olds. But anyone who is 17 or below has basically zero interested in playing for a premier league team. They won't even enter negotiations with wild expectations of being a 1st team starter or whatever. It's complete rubbish & so much worse than before.

I can sign basically the very best players of 18 years old.

My own understanding now is that there is something like 6 criteria sets under which players can move internationally before 18 (almost exclusively to do with the family moving for non-footballing reasons). These are from FIFA and govern all the international transfers (with possible EU exceptions, but I'm not knowledgeable enough in that area).

When it comes to the Premier League however, this is right. Below is from an article in April and as far as I'm aware the rules haven't changed since.

There may well be a point to make that perhaps this should be presented in-game through a different way than the player not being interested in negotiating. If there are any ideas on what may make this better then feel free to log a feature request but this may not be the situation for long if the bigger clubs do get their own way.

23 hours ago, Michael Sant said:

My own understanding now is that there is something like 6 criteria sets under which players can move internationally before 18 (almost exclusively to do with the family moving for non-footballing reasons). These are from FIFA and govern all the international transfers (with possible EU exceptions, but I'm not knowledgeable enough in that area).

When it comes to the Premier League however, this is right. Below is from an article in April and as far as I'm aware the rules haven't changed since.

There may well be a point to make that perhaps this should be presented in-game through a different way than the player not being interested in negotiating. If there are any ideas on what may make this better then feel free to log a feature request but this may not be the situation for long if the bigger clubs do get their own way.

I'm REALLY trying to help.

Being 8, 18 or 88 should make no difference to interest. Does the player have interest / ambition to move to another team in a much higher division, much higher reputation, much higher chance to play. Pre-contracts exist for a reason - for players to agree in advance of their move date & this is the crux of the issue. A player interested in moving when they turn 18, should have been interested the day before their 18th birthday, when they are 17. But the proof here is that is not being displayed in game -- & it ruins it. As a team who has scouted a prospect it makes zero sense to have no chance to sign them, or stoke interest to prevent them signing a contract. It means you basically need to wait until any young player turns 18 with a really long contract which based on the pricing in this game means they will cost £50m for a prospect who has done nothing in the game. 

The legislation you're referring to effects EU players only. For non-EU it's precisely the same. Brazlians must be 18 before they move. Again Endrick is agreeing a move & he is 16 - it happens all the time.

I'm not sure why I'm wasting my breathe.  The legislation hasn't changed since FM22's release but the game behaviour has. 

This is a regression. Not a "feature request". 

Yes, the behaviour in game has changed to better reflect the reality of the footballing world. In retrospect, it should have also been the case in FM22. 

The reason I mention a feature request is because of the frustration the current presentation of this reality manifests in game. The lack of interest from the players is not perhaps a true lack of interest in playing for your club, but a lack of interest because its against the rules & regulations for them to join you at that time. Maybe people have thoughts on how this could be better presented, when you make an offer maybe it should just have a pop-up message saying "No offer can be made for this player as they cannot be signed under current rules" or maybe the option should be greyed out with a tool tip when hovering over. There's a lot of ways in which this could be presented and probably better ways than the two that I had come to mind. 

Perhaps there are some areas which we need to look at with Brazilians, but keep in mind the likes of Vinicius Junior did and Endrick looks to be agreeing moves at 16 when strictly speaking I don't believe its legally binding for them to have signed contracts with anyone. There's a certain lack of clarity which doesn't really get explained in these transfers. There would also have to be a question about whether or not we want to emulate real world mechanisms allowing children to be transferred. 

On 14/12/2022 at 22:17, Michael Sant said:

Yes, the behaviour in game has changed to better reflect the reality of the footballing world. In retrospect, it should have also been the case in FM22. 

The reason I mention a feature request is because of the frustration the current presentation of this reality manifests in game. The lack of interest from the players is not perhaps a true lack of interest in playing for your club, but a lack of interest because its against the rules & regulations for them to join you at that time. Maybe people have thoughts on how this could be better presented, when you make an offer maybe it should just have a pop-up message saying "No offer can be made for this player as they cannot be signed under current rules" or maybe the option should be greyed out with a tool tip when hovering over. There's a lot of ways in which this could be presented and probably better ways than the two that I had come to mind. 

Perhaps there are some areas which we need to look at with Brazilians, but keep in mind the likes of Vinicius Junior did and Endrick looks to be agreeing moves at 16 when strictly speaking I don't believe its legally binding for them to have signed contracts with anyone. There's a certain lack of clarity which doesn't really get explained in these transfers. There would also have to be a question about whether or not we want to emulate real world mechanisms allowing children to be transferred. 

They can sign, but cannot transfer. This isn't brazilian specific but presuming you're clued up in the world of football (given your developing for a leading the football simulator), I thought it a nice obvious scenario. I don't think anyone would want to see a simulation where you could "offer parents a job" to move them all to a new country & then conveniently sign the player in advance of their 18th birthday. This happened with Messi for barca and is weird.

If I could write this succinctly:

A players interest in moving to a new club should not be impacted by their future transfer date. Because in reality it just doesn't in real life. Not in the way the game is doing it all of a sudden "I can't move so I won't discuss moving". This is just wrong and inaccurate. They sign pre-contracts & move when permitted - when 18.

A feature request to improve the realness of the game would be to have a team or managers reputation in signing, playing & developing youngsters being a much bigger factor when youngsters look at moving; i.e. where are they likely to play & be developed into stars (i.e. dortmund) vs signing up & being farmed out on endless loans (i.e. chelsea/man city).

On 15/12/2022 at 07:17, Michael Sant said:

Yes, the behaviour in game has changed to better reflect the reality of the footballing world. In retrospect, it should have also been the case in FM22. 

The reason I mention a feature request is because of the frustration the current presentation of this reality manifests in game. The lack of interest from the players is not perhaps a true lack of interest in playing for your club, but a lack of interest because its against the rules & regulations for them to join you at that time. Maybe people have thoughts on how this could be better presented, when you make an offer maybe it should just have a pop-up message saying "No offer can be made for this player as they cannot be signed under current rules" or maybe the option should be greyed out with a tool tip when hovering over. There's a lot of ways in which this could be presented and probably better ways than the two that I had come to mind. 

Perhaps there are some areas which we need to look at with Brazilians, but keep in mind the likes of Vinicius Junior did and Endrick looks to be agreeing moves at 16 when strictly speaking I don't believe its legally binding for them to have signed contracts with anyone. There's a certain lack of clarity which doesn't really get explained in these transfers. There would also have to be a question about whether or not we want to emulate real world mechanisms allowing children to be transferred. 

OMG, what are you talking about? You don't even know how your game works?

If we are to make an offer, there is already message telling us that that the transfer will only happen when the player becomes 18.

The point is you shouldn't change how player transfer interest works.

There exists no legislation or regulation in real life to support your change.

Also, the game seems to have no problem actually breaking these laws. Here's some screenshots showing Non-EU newgens under the age of 17 playing at EU clubs. All of these players (presumably) transferred to these clubs "under the hood" of Academy football, which is illegal, unless they have an EU passport, which a lot of these players don't have, ie no Second Nationality.

My attempts have only been to provide some general context as its impossible for me to get into the details of every transfer attempt people will make - and I have to be honest - the rules and regulations in place are beyond my understanding in that realm. We made some changes in the most recent update to try and find a better balance but that doesn't prevent there being subsequent issues to investigate. We're at a point where we'd need more save game files of instances where you feel its not working correctly and the QA team can review these on an individual basis to see if there are further changes that may be required moving forward or if we believe its behaved correctly in an instance. There is going to be some subjectivity but the door isn't closed. 

@Smoo if you're feeling you've found an issue like that its probably something different that could warrant its own thread + save game with examples highlighted so it can be looked into separately on its own merits.

Jaime Cortes (17 year old American with no EU nationality yet playing for Auxerre in France, funny how the AI can break rules the player can't) wants to leave due to team getting relegated. Jaime Cortes wants to continue his development...at relegated club...

Uploaded file Chelsea Jaime Cortes Transfer.

I keep looking back to see if a reasonable response from the development team is coming.

No chance.

How you don't understand why players bother buying this is beyond me. The game has been around for 20 years & somehow you've managed to break it without knowing.

@Smoo has that player transferred to Auxerre or has he come through their youth system? 

If he has come through at the club then that's just a representation of the circumstances in which a player can end up having been in another nation. For example, the players family relocated. 

However, its a really good example of something we would look into with this. He's a couple months off turning 18, he wants to leave and despite the fact he could have that move in a few months time (January) he's turned it down. Many thanks for providing that one, I'll get it passed on directly to our QA team who can check this out in more depth. 

Examples don't have to be as strong as this one, but we definitely welcome further examples as save game files with specific negotiations in which we can review the logic behind the scenes is a massive benefit. 

8 hours ago, Michael Sant said:

@Smoo has that player transferred to Auxerre or has he come through their youth system? 

If he has come through at the club then that's just a representation of the circumstances in which a player can end up having been in another nation. For example, the players family relocated. 

However, its a really good example of something we would look into with this. He's a couple months off turning 18, he wants to leave and despite the fact he could have that move in a few months time (January) he's turned it down. Many thanks for providing that one, I'll get it passed on directly to our QA team who can check this out in more depth. 

Examples don't have to be as strong as this one, but we definitely welcome further examples as save game files with specific negotiations in which we can review the logic behind the scenes is a massive benefit. 

Auxerre have 2 American affiliate teams, both providing the transfer of under 18s. Which is illegal. A player can train at a club for a (very) short period, but they cannot transfer to that team. I'm guessing since he was born in Texas, he will have transferred from Texas Rush.

Edit: He has lived in France for 915 days, or 2.5 years. Which ties up pretty well to Newgen day in France 2.5 years ago (current date 21 September 2025 minus 915 days = 21st March 2023). If his family moved to France for non football reasons, he'd have been living in France for longer than 915 days.

Edited December 19, 2022 by Smoo