The Classic 4-3-3 (with wing-forwards FR/FL)

Anyone playing with this formation?

I had a lot of fun and success on FM08 playing with this 'classic style' 4-3-3 with true wing-forwards.

I'm tempted to get it up and running again on FM10.

I'll add some notes below on the 4-3-3 and perhaps end up doing some testing with a suitable club. Can anyone recommend a good club for the 4-3-3 particularly with suitable players for the FR/FL?

Some Truncated Notes on the Classic 4-3-3 (mostly taken from the Lucchesi books):

This is the 4-3-3 in the Dutch style, with the wingers encouraged to act as true forwards and with the formation generally emphasising attack more than defence. That is, as opposed to the 'Mourinho-style' 4-5-1/4-3-3 shape or the formation with three tight forwards as offered by the tactics creator.

This formation works best with a side who have a great midfield and talented attacking players. It encourages expansive, attacking play. The forwards in this 4-3-3 follow in the Dutch, Spanish and Portuguese tradition, where the defensive duties of the winger are confined to pressing the opposition fullbacks when they have the ball. The triangle up front of FR/FL/FC is supported by a creative and defensive midfield backbone of an attacking midfielder who gets forward often, a holding midfielder and an all-rounder. The mentality structure should be defined so that the fullbacks support the midfield, the central midfielder acts as a filtering player but also offers deep support, and the wingers have the same kind of mindset as the midfield to make them more accessible for shorter attacking passes, as well as longer passes from the backs into the channels.

The wingers offer plenty of variation in attack as they swap positions, so sometimes they play wide with their feet on the lines, while other times they will play narrower or come inside. The left winger is often the most creative player. In FM terms, I suggest some combination of winger and inside forward, probably with player swapping.

Notes from Lucchesi's book on coaching the 4-3-3:

The 4-3-3 System

Advantages:

- Three centre-midfielders, two inside and one middle, guarantees solidity in the centre of the field. The centre-midfielder, acts as a filter and reduces the opposing strikers’ opportunities of receive the ball at their feet.

- Three strikers favours offensive pressing.

- The team are naturally inclined to press in the side zone on a level with the opposing defence section, the central zone at midfield level and the central zone in front of their own defence level.

Player characteristics:

- Central defenders – good at dealing with field behind them. Centre-midfielder will screen.

- Side defenders – speed, anticipation.

- Centre-midfielder – players in front of the defence. Must filter, screen and set attacking plays in motion. Downfield playmaker.

- Inside midfielders – Dynamic players who cover large area of the field. Important tasks to perform both in the possession and the non-possession phase. Different quantities and qualities to complement each other.

- Side striker/wing forward – The wings are very important. Ability to receive ball in space (off the ball movement), dribbling, throughballs, crossing.

- Centre-striker – Strong, able to contest the ball in the air and on the ground.

Chains of 4-3-3:

Side defender – insider midfielder – wing (side chain)

Wing – centre-forward – wing (in depth chain)

Inside midfielder – wing – centre-forward

Classic 4-3-3 of the Dutch school:

- Three strikers occupy the whole width of the opponents’ front line.

- Wings play with their ‘feet on the lines’.

- The wide strikers also help to keep opposing fullbacks occupied with defensive duties. This is a positive way of trying to counter attack minded fullbacks.

Barca . Bit narrow so need attacking fullbacks, inside forwards?, centre-mids would be changed alot to win the tactical battles, the FC could be a trequartista to come deep and would resemble the system Barca use though.

The one problem with FM10 is that the FR/FL positions are considered striker positions rather than winger positions. However, we need players who have the right kind of skills to play as very attacking wide players. Any player who has AMRL/ST competency should do the job here.

It's very important to have a quality central striker. Really we are looking for a complete striker to play in the central positions. An all rounder who can offer a bit of everything.

Barca . Bit narrow so need attacking fullbacks, inside forwards?, centre-mids would be changed alot to win the tactical battles, the FC could be a trequartista to come deep and would resemble the system Barca use though.

Hey Jenko_EFC.

Yes, I thought Barca might be an obvious choice. Maybe a bit too easy.

It's not a narrow formation as you have the FR/FL. However, my intention was probably to use one inside forward and one winger for the wide players, both swapping positions preferably, with the fullback on the inside forward's side adding width through the use of a wing-back role.

I'd probably be looking for a player to play complete forward (support) for the central striker. An all-rounder who can contribute to the play and score goals.

What about Valencia? Or maybe Atletico Madrid.

What about Valencia? Or maybe Atletico Madrid.

I'll have a look at their squads and see. I just want to run a few test games.

Hey Jenko_EFC.

Yes, I thought Barca might be an obvious choice. Maybe a bit too easy.

It's not a narrow formation as you have the FR/FL. However, my intention was probably to use one inside forward and one winger for the wide players, both swapping positions preferably, with the fullback on the inside forward's side adding width through the use of a wing-back role.

I'd probably be looking for a player to play complete forward (support) for the central striker. An all-rounder who can contribute to the play and score goals.

Not too easy no . Anyway, what I meant was the MR/L, AMR/L and the WBR/L isn't covered too well unless the fullback surges forward and the winger comes back. Good luck though and the only problem using FL/R is the roles are winger roles not striker roles which may be of some bother!

Not too easy no . Anyway, what I meant was the MR/L, AMR/L and the WBR/L isn't covered too well unless the fullback surges forward and the winger comes back. Good luck though and the only problem using FL/R is the roles are winger roles not striker roles which may be of some bother!

That's really what I want in the FR/FL positions as I'm looking to use true wingers in the classic 4-3-3 style.

As for the wide positions, I'm using the 'rigid' philosophy, where the mentalities for the fullbacks will be equal to the mentality of the defensive-minded central MC. The two wide forwards will have the same mentality as the 'inside midfielders' (MCr and MCl). The idea in the 4-3-3 is to have the three midfield players moving laterally across the pitch when out of possession to defend and support their fullbacks. While attacking, the fullbacks should step up to support the midfield. We'll see how it works anyway.

That's really what I want in the FR/FL positions as I'm looking to use true wingers in the classic 4-3-3 style.

As for the wide positions, I'm using the 'rigid' philosophy, where the mentalities for the fullbacks will be equal to the mentality of the defensive-minded central MC. The two wide forwards will have the same mentality as the 'inside midfielders' (MCr and MCl). The idea in the 4-3-3 is to have the three midfield players moving laterally across the pitch when out of possession to defend and support their fullbacks. While attacking, the fullbacks should step up to support the midfield. We'll see how it works anyway.

Ah, I get it so the 3 midfielders move wide, are you going to adjust their wideplay at all? If you wouldn't mind, when finished with this project could you upload a PKM so I could have a look and a few before you're finished so we could give tips on anything?

Ah, I get it so the 3 midfielders move wide, are you going to adjust their wideplay at all?

No, I meant when defending. The idea is that the three central midfielders are in a 'chain' and they will move laterally across the pitch to support their fullbacks when out of possession. This leaves the wide attacking players without defensive responsibility. They only have to press the opposition fullbacks and stay forward.

If you wouldn't mind, when finished with this project could you upload a PKM so I could have a look and a few before you're finished so we could give tips on anything?

Yeah, sure. It's not so much a project but more a bit of fun!

I'll be running a few test games with Liverpool, I think.

No, I meant when defending. The idea is that the three central midfielders are in a 'chain' and they will move laterally across the pitch to support their fullbacks when out of possession. This leaves the wide attacking players without defensive responsibility. They only have to press the opposition fullbacks and stay forward.

Yeah, sure. It's not so much a project but more a bit of fun!

I'll be running a few test games with Liverpool, I think.

I don't care, honest ! Only joking, they seem to have a squad capable of this with Gerrard, Mascherano and Aqualani in midfield. Kuyt, Torres and Babel up-front seems most likely but Babel can play on the right as an inside forward, Kuyt a defensive forward? Torres a complete forward presumably.

It clicked what you meant about the centre-mids just after I replied and re-read the thread and thought about editing my post but understand now .

Crouchy, seems you've settled on the scousers but I think Lyon are perfect for this tactic also if you need another test.

I don't care, honest ! Only joking, they seem to have a squad capable of this with Gerrard, Mascherano and Aqualani in midfield. Kuyt, Torres and Babel up-front seems most likely but Babel can play on the right as an inside forward, Kuyt a defensive forward? Torres a complete forward presumably.

It clicked what you meant about the centre-mids just after I replied and re-read the thread and thought about editing my post but understand now .

Ah, sorry about that Jenko.

I thought Liverpool because I wanted to have Torres as the complete forward and I knew that they had a few players who should work well as wing-forwards.

I'm after giving this a go against some top opposition. Just holidaying through pre-season and I've spotted a Liverpool v Arsenal game early on, so I think I'll skip straight to that and give it a shot.

Crouchy, seems you've settled on the scousers but I think Lyon are perfect for this tactic also if you need another test.

I might give it a test with a few teams, so maybe Lyon next. Liverpool v Arsenal first though.

You know the trouble with Liverpool is that Fernando Torres can't stay fit for five minutes!

Are you using the "inside forward" role for the wide forwards? Or another role, or tweaks?

To play with three forwards, two out wide, my initial thought might be to set the AML/AMR's wide play as "moves into channels", to bring them into the middle, attacking the goal from the corners of the box, not the touchline. Tell me if I'm missing something? Or if there's a better idea in this setup?

The formation:

Aquilani and Kuyt unfit.

Typical back four but with one fullback set to the 'wing-back' role.

Trio in midfield of a destroyer, creator and support player. The central MC is a ball winner and his job is to win the ball and play simple possession-based passes. MCl is a very attack-minded midfielder, while MCr is a midfield support player.

Up front, FR is a winger, FC is a complete forward and FL is an inside forward. The two wide forwards are set to swap position.

I'm using the rigid philosophy because I like my teams to keep their shape and have a clear structure. It's mitigated somewhat by more creative freedom. I'm using zonal marking.

When playing very attacking, the front three will all roam from position and so will Gerrard. When playing more defensively, I have it set that Gerrard and Torres will mainly be roaming while the others will play in a more structured fashion.

That's all so far.

Ah, sorry about that Jenko.

I thought Liverpool because I wanted to have Torres as the complete forward and I knew that they had a few players who should work well as wing-forwards.

I'm after giving this a go against some top opposition. Just holidaying through pre-season and I've spotted a Liverpool v Arsenal game early on, so I think I'll skip straight to that and give it a shot.

I might give it a test with a few teams, so maybe Lyon next. Liverpool v Arsenal first though.

Don't worry I don't mind I feel they have a squad capable so I'm all for it . Just don't release their PKM as I'll criticize every mistake they make muahahahahah! . Only joking, Liverpool vs Arsenal will be good as they pretty much match your shape thinking about it.

Are you using the "inside forward" role for the wide forwards? Or another role, or tweaks?

At the moment, I'm going for one inside forward and one winger.

To play with three forwards, two out wide, my initial thought might be to set the AML/AMR's wide play as "moves into channels", to bring them into the middle, attacking the goal from the corners of the box, not the touchline. Tell me if I'm missing something? Or if there's a better idea in this setup?

I'm not sure that's how 'moves into channels' works. That would be for a central forward who you want to move into space in the channels either side of him. The central striker will have this set so that he will move out wide if there is space to exploit, which might result in one of the wide strikers naturally moving inside anyway (which I have seen happen already in the ME).

Don't worry I don't mind I feel they have a squad capable so I'm all for it . Just don't release their PKM as I'll criticize every mistake they make muahahahahah! . Only joking, Liverpool vs Arsenal will be good as they pretty much match your shape thinking about it.

I almost went for Arsenal actually as they would be another good choice for this formation thinking about it.

I'm not sure that's how 'moves into channels' works. That would be for a central forward who you want to move into space in the channels either side of him. The central striker will have this set so that he will move out wide if there is space to exploit, which might result in one of the wide strikers naturally moving inside anyway (which I have seen happen already in the ME).

Does this movement depend on a playing having "roam from position" checked, or just a natural flip-flop of players naturally looking for a little space? In the framework you're testing, you would prefer the forwards swapping around space up front, but not roaming deep, wide, and all over, right?

I almost went for Arsenal actually as they would be another good choice for this formation thinking about it.

Nah, Liverpool is a good choice to be honest, Arsenal don't have that goalscorer like Torres so would need a fluid front 3 similar to Manchester United's Ronaldo, Rooney and Tevez last year but you'd have van Persie, Walcott and Arshavin. The midfield of Fabregas, Denilson and Song mightn't be good enough and attacking to provide through balls like Gerrard and Aqualani.

I would agree with your use of the three midfielders, all in the MC slots, to create that sliding movement on defense. I've found that with two MCs (and an AMC or DMC), the midfielders don't slide from sideline to sideline, like you've described, however with three MCs in the middle they're more likely to do that. Interested to hear if others have seen that in the ME, too.

Personally, I often like the safety of having that third midfielder (the one on the opposide side from the ball) spying that side of the opponent's formation. Without that, I've seen the opposition too easily hit a pass to that side for a wide open attacking full back or whoever.

The formation:

Aquilani and Kuyt unfit.

Typical back four but with one fullback set to the 'wing-back' role.

Trio in midfield of a destroyer, creator and support player. The central MC is a ball winner and his job is to win the ball and play simple possession-based passes. MCl is a very attack-minded midfielder, while MCr is a midfield support player.

Up front, FR is a winger, FC is a complete forward and FL is an inside forward. The two wide forwards are set to swap position.

I'm using the rigid philosophy because I like my teams to keep their shape and have a clear structure. It's mitigated somewhat by more creative freedom. I'm using zonal marking.

When playing very attacking, the front three will all roam from position and so will Gerrard. When playing more defensively, I have it set that Gerrard and Torres will mainly be roaming while the others will play in a more structured fashion.

That's all so far.

Swap Babel with Maxi and have Babel inside forward as he'll get chances in his favoured left. Fullbacks will be important and you have attacking ones which will help.

Does this movement depend on a playing having "roam from position" checked, or just a natural flip-flop of players naturally looking for a little space? In the framework you're testing, you would prefer the forwards swapping around space up front, but not roaming deep, wide, and all over, right?

Basically, my idea is that while attacking, I want a front three who are roaming and looking for space. While playing more defensively and especially on the counter, I'm looking for the wide players to generally stick to position so that I can counter down the flanks effectively. If the opposition commit their fullbacks forward, my wide players who are always staying forward are going to have space to exploit on the flanks.

As for the movement, it was probably a natural movement but caused in the first place by the central striker roaming from position.

Nah, Liverpool is a good choice to be honest, Arsenal don't have that goalscorer like Torres so would need a fluid front 3 similar to Manchester United's Ronaldo, Rooney and Tevez last year but you'd have van Persie, Walcott and Arshavin. The midfield of Fabregas, Denilson and Song mightn't be good enough and attacking to provide through balls like Gerrard and Aqualani.

That's what I figured basically.

I would agree with your use of the three midfielders, all in the MC slots, to create that sliding movement on defense. I've found that with two MCs (and an AMC or DMC), the midfielders don't slide from sideline to sideline, like you've described, however with three MCs in the middle they're more likely to do that. Interested to hear if others have seen that in the ME, too.

Exactly that. I agree. The three MCs create a more natural midfield which isn't narrow as it is when playing a DM. I get the 'magic triangle' in midfield by the way that I assign the roles (mentalities) of the players. That is, the 4 drops deep while the two inside midfielders play more as midfield central players.

Personally, I often like the safety of having that third midfielder (the one on the opposide side from the ball) spying that side of the opponent's formation. Without that, I've seen the opposition too easily hit a pass to that side for a wide open attacking full back or whoever.

Yes, it works quite well.

Swap Babel with Maxi and have Babel inside forward as he'll get chances in his favoured left. Fullbacks will be important and you have attacking ones which will help.

Babel is a right-footer.

Babel is a right-footer.

So he is! Shows how much I know! He plays on the left in real life and on the game so I presumed he was left-footed because from what I've seen of him he was fairly comfortable with his left foot.

I think he's pretty decent on his left. You are right.

Just uploading some screenshots.

I think he's pretty decent on his left. You are right.

Just uploading some screenshots.

No he's right-footed ! Looking forward to the screenies.

Liverpool v Arsenal

I wanted to show some great examples of expansive wing play but typically Steven Gerrard stole the show.

To be honest, I'm not sure how good Maxi Rodriguez and Babel are as examples because the former is having problems adapting to the squad and the language barrier, and the latter isn't really a great player. Both played all right and each player played a few decent key passes and had a couple of efforts at goal. Babel had a clear cut chance and probably should have scored. The front three made a lot of 'runs past opponent' which is what I really wanted to see from the wide players particularly.

Anyway, I have some screenshots to show in the next post.

No he's right-footed ! Looking forward to the screenies.

Oh dear.

Here you see how the wide players work in this classic 4-3-3. You want them to stay up field in the FR/FL slots.

Some people think that the wide players should be tracking back to help defensively but in this system the FR/FL have only pressing as their defensive responsibility. By staying up field, they offer a dangerous threat on the break. In this screenshot, Mascherano has just won the ball and has both wide players in tons of space as options to break forward:

Here is the basic shape when in possession (note the central midfield triangle):

What I wanted to see sometimes is the central striker holding up and running with the ball, allowing the wide players to make runs beyond him. In this screenshot, Torres has just played a through-ball to Ryan Babel who has got in behind his fullback. It should have been a goal but the 'keeper saved.

Another example of Torres holding up and playing in one of the wide players who has got in behind his fullback, only this time the move breaks down because Babel doesn't anticipate the move:

Overall, I'm quite pleased with the way the tactic is working. It keeps possession very well and with quality players up front looks very dangerous.

Probably need to try it with another team who have better wide players.

Babel's finishing let you down hey, looks good and liking the triangle made with Mascherano dropping deep. My joke wasn't awful better than Fabio Crouchello . How did Maxi do? Seemed a bit deeper than he should have been in that last screenie but it looks solid enough. Curoius as to why you conceded and scored.

I have used this formation in many games, and the formation has been a favorite for me in FM 10.

You can get your wingers to work defensively if you want, even though they are in the FR/FL position. Give them man marking and you will see that they are tracking back. Of course if you want them to work defensively, as Maourinho do with his wingers.

Another thing that I want to point out is that the formation works better if you put the central middfielder as playmaker with attacking duty. Despite the fact that he has attacking duty he will still drop a little behind the two other middfielders (MCL/MCR). In addition, he will in this position, and with attacking duty, be much more playable and add more offensive troughballs to the three strikers. You can do that and still have the two other middfielders (MCR/MCL) on support duty, it works fine.

That attacking formation is impressive, since the midfield stagger is done through roles/mentalities alone. Babel's almost-goal, that inside forward stepping inside and past the fullback, is one of the most potent attacking moves that I see in FM, whether it be from a deep throughball (as in your screenshot) or simply a short quick pass, one step inside the fullback when play is already built up near the box.

This move is the reason for very quick wingers. Anticipation, off-the-ball, acceleration, that's the recipe right?

Babel's finishing let you down hey, looks good and liking the triangle made with Mascherano dropping deep.

Yes, looking good there.

My joke wasn't awful better than Fabio Crouchello.

I respectfully disagree!

How did Maxi do?

Made quite a few runs past opponent and generally looked better than Babel but had less chances.

Seemed a bit deeper than he should have been in that last screenie but it looks solid enough.

In the last screenshot, Gerrard has roamed into a wide position so it looks as though Maxi has come inside to take up his positon.

Curoius as to why you conceded and scored.

Goal 1 was Arsenal. Van Persie played through and just skipped past Carragher who went in for the challenge and came out with nothing! So defensive error or great play by Van Persie depending on how you want to look at it.

Goal 2 was Liverpool. A Gerrard long-range effort.

Goal 3 was Arsenal. Fabregas on the edge of the box not closed down quick enough and he sent a powerful shot into the back of the net.

Goal 4 was Liverpool. Torres holding up, plays to fullback on the overlap who cuts it back to Gerrard. He takes a touch and sends a lethal shot across the goal to equalise just before half-time.

Goal 5 was Liverpool. Kyrgiakos bundles home a loose ball after a corner than Arsenal failed to clear.

So nothing to talk about tactically really.

I have used this formation in many games, and the formation has been a favorite for me in FM 10.

You can get your wingers to work defensively if you want, even though they are in the FR/FL position. Give them man marking and you will see that they are tracking back. Of course if you want them to work defensively, as Maourinho do with his wingers.

Might be a good option for playing against superior opponents. I tend to want my wing-forwards to stay forward though, so I can exploit the flanks on the break and cause their fullbacks all kinds of problems.

Another thing that I want to point out is that the formation works better if you put the central middfielder as playmaker with attacking duty. Despite the fact that he has attacking duty he will still drop a little behind the two other middfielders (MCL/MCR). In addition, he will in this position, and with attacking duty, be much more playable and add more offensive troughballs to the three strikers. You can do that and still have the two other middfielders (MCR/MCL) on support duty, it works fine.

I'm sure it works well.

I'm working with the traditional roles of the classic 4-3-3 so I'm content to have a good tactical and defensive player in there who keeps it simple with possession-based passes.

I did think about having a DLP (defend) there though, if you had a player with the right qualities to defend and dictate play from a deeper position. That might work really nicely.

That attacking formation is impressive, since the midfield stagger is done through roles/mentalities alone. Babel's almost-goal, that inside forward stepping inside and past the fullback, is one of the most potent attacking moves that I see in FM, whether it be from a deep throughball (as in your screenshot) or simply a short quick pass, one step inside the fullback when play is already built up near the box.

This move is the reason for very quick wingers. Anticipation, off-the-ball, acceleration, that's the recipe right?

Yes indeed. It's pretty dangerous due to the angle as well.

I'm looking for a mixture of that kind of play and also some good general wingplay involving through-balls and crosses from the wide forwards.

5 goals and nothing tactically! Glad Maxi did well then I thought it looked odd with him so deep.

5 goals and nothing tactically!

You know what I mean.

They were more down to player mistakes or stunning individual efforts than tactical errors.

The other thing to point out is that it is still quite early in the game. Team gelling is quite low and the AI is a bit more aggressive than it would be if the team had a bit of form under its belt.

I might wind forward a few months and pick another match to try it in.

Seems pretty solid really, wonder goals that couldn't be helped but still remains quite solid with flat back 4, defensive midfielder shouldn't concede but when playing Arsenal most teams concede. The good thing is you made up for it! Looking forward to future updates .

This thread has been an interesting read. Might sound like a stupid question but what I would like to know is what difference is there in playing an FR/FL over an AML/AMR with high mentality?

AMR/AML are part of the midfield and therefore play that way. They track back and cover some similar ground to the MR/ML.

FR/FL play as forwards. They are part of the attack rather than the midfield and they don't track back.

Cheers for the quick answer Crouchy, it is something I have always wondered but never asked as I don't really use wing forwards or even wingers for that matter. This type of tactic would be great for Valencia might have to give it ago.

Would you get a similar effect by reducing/eliminating closing down for an AML/AMR? Or is this tracking back movement even deeper in the ME?

I think it's just a natural part of how the ME works dankrzyz. The natural positioning of the AM compared to the wide striker positions.

I'll post up a couple of screenshots shortly to illustrate.

This screenshot shows the difference:

Here I am playing an AML on the left and a FR on the right.

The team has just won possession. Look at the positioning of the left wide player compared to the right and see how deep he has come.

The AML has defensive responsibilities as part of the midfield. The FR, on the other hand, is a true forward.

You can give AMR and AML high mentalities and they can often play like forwards when in possession but ultimately that's why the 4-5-1 shape with AMR/AML (associated with Mourinho) is called 4-5-1 and not 4-3-3 (even though many people call it 4-3-3). The wide players are part of the midfield and not true forwards.