An attempt to create a tactic for AC Milan

Hello everyone

basically I suck at FM. Started sucking back in 06 and still not doing a very good job. I have downloaded and used many tactics, but I never seem to succeed or get everything right. So I decided to have a go at it myself.

I selected Ac Milan because they are my favourite side and because they have a very good, yet old squad and I did not want to make it too hard on myself.

Formation : standard diamond attacking 442 without wingers. Why? Easy: no wingers in my squad + lots of dm/m/am c. I hope to make succesful changes as I go along.

Signings: Saivet - Zucculini, nothing more as my wage budget already is too high.

I hope to bring in Fiorillo, Sakho, Palloschi and Velloso once I am granted extra transfer funds and maybe Keirrison or Marquinhos.

Furthermore, I need to find worldclass fullbacks as they are the only players offering width and covering my flanks, which might become a problem.

The first question I have for you guys: how do I set up a playmaker/creative dmc (Pirlo)? The default dmc in the tactic is set as extremely defensive and just covering the back four, which does of course fit Gattuso types but not Pirlo.

Secondly, how should I use the OI to prevent wingers to cause havoc to my team?

Thirdly, how should I set up Kaka/Ronaldinho in the AMC Slot?

I have just finished my preseason friendlies, will let you know how I get on.

I signed Mathieu from Toulouse as I did not feel comfortable with the quality of fullbacks at my disposal. He is young and a good crosser, so he should be useful.

I had a good look at the set pieces and corner setup, as I have some specialists at my disposal so this could be a lethal weapon. Basically Ronaldinho takes everything from the left and Pirlo from the right. I am using the corner bug (all help will come in handy), but no goals from that so far.

My first game is at home against Udinese. I was favourite to win the game. However, as Udinese have a rather good squad with very good wingers, I was a bit nervous about them ripping me to shreds. I used the OI's to thight mark + close them down, and it worked a treat. Only Pepe managed one rush and shot at goal, the FC and other winger did not participate at all.

1-0 Shevchenko, corner

2-0 Pato, goal on the break which put him one on one with the goalie.

2-1, throw in which resulted in a free header, it said Kaladze was to blame, maybe it has to do with his ultradefensive standard settings. I will keep an eye out for silly mistakes because then I will need to adapt the tactics.

3-1 header from Ambrosini.

I was quite surprised to see how many freedom my FB's were given. Everyone from Udine tucked in as I had one MC more than they did which allowed my FB's to cross a lot. However, I only managed 8% succesful crosses. Maybe because I don't have good headers at my disposal? I will change TM supply to feet for the next game and see what happens.

Any thought or ideas are very welcome....

I will change TM supply to feet for the next game and see what happens.

If you don't use a targetman, the TM supply feature doesn't do anything.

how do I set up a playmaker/creative dmc (Pirlo)

Thirdly, how should I set up Kaka/Ronaldinho in the AMC Slot?

Play matches in full highlights, put them both on default (however, you could tick playmaker box and put pirlo as PM), and check out what you think they're doing wrong. FE, you might feel like mixed FWR for kaka isn't good, then change it, you might feel like Pirlo is too deep, give him heigher mentality, etc. I'm in the same place you are, except I took Udinese as I feel like it's easier to overachieve with a fairly good team then it is with a topteam. If you don't win the league you'll be bummed (i'd be). If I don't win the league I'm jumpin up and down cheering cause I managed to qualify for CL.

Anywayz, I've had succes in the game, but never on tactics I designed in detail to make it suit the squad exactly. I think tactics is the real good part of the game though, so I'm just gonna put all my energy while playing the game in designing that/testing, and stop being concerned with immediate succes.

I advice you to play full match highlights and completely tweak every player yourself.

I also advice you to restrict the nr. of transfers you make, and, more importantly, the types of transfers. Instead of checking forums, I find it more fun to find players myself. Obviously I've heard of Veloso, but because I can't buy players in first season, his value is so high, it just isn't worth it anymore. Buying the same players every game took the fun away in previous fm versions. Scout, check top scorers, find good performers, check whether they'll fit in is more fun then getting some 19 yr old who's been overrated by SI, and play him in some default striker setting. The only save on fm09 i played so far, I didn't buy a single player that's popular in fm communities, but had great succes. Without pple like saivet, my youth acedemy was incredible, just because of players I got from my own acedemy, combined with a few I found in the lower league top scorers/top performers page.

Hope I helped encouraging you

ps: i hope that by saying "what to do with amc slot kaka/ronaldinho" doesn't mean you're benching one of em...

Decided I wanted to see if I could re-create Ancelotti's 4-4-2 Diamond, which is what lead me to this thread.

Formation

Here is a break-down on their personal settings as well.

Goalkeeper - Basically your average keeper. Needs good stats where they count. Abbiati has done a good job for me, but you can get better than him.

Wingbacks - Think Ramos and Chiellini. Should be decent going forward, but more solid defensively than in attack. I have Jankulovski and Azpilicueta as my wingbacks so nothing special, just solid players.

Central Defenders - Pretty much your standard DC's. Preferably a strong tall one alongside a quicker one, but having two giant's isn't a problem either. I play Senderos next to Nesta and they work together brilliantly.

Defensive Midfielder - Your playmaker. This should be a very very creative player with good ratings in Off The Ball, Anticipation, Creativity, Passing and Decisions. I play Pirlo here and he is absolutely amazing working the ball from the back brilliantly opening up defence's with ease.

Central Midfielders - Solid, Hard-working players here. Gattuso and Flamini control these two spots and they are absolutely amazing. I would reccomend players with high stamina as these two have to do alot of closing down on the wings if its needed. They generally are your two destroyers in midfield, getting possesion back and working the ball to your AMC or DMC.

Attacking Midfielder - Ronaldhino control's this spot and does it brilliantly. You basically need a good AMC here. Dribbling, Passing and Long Shots all factor into what he does. I've got his FWR's set to rarely as when I had them on Mixed or Often, he was generally no where to be seen for the duration of the match. Dropping it to rarely means he now sits in that whole between the midfield and defence and with RWB set to Often, he gets at defence's alot more often and actually has an effect on the game.

Attacking Striker - Pato plays this role for me. He plays high up the field and is generally just meant to get into the defenders and make a nuisance of himself. He will pick up a fair few goals. Between Pato and Inzaghi they managed 10 goals in pre-season. So needs to be a good finisher.

Creative Striker - Finally, what in my opinion is the crunx of this formation. Kaka. I play him as a Striker (re-trained to play there) and he has been absolutely amazing. Free-Role ticked so he finds space, attacking mentality so he takes risks when he is on the ball, high creative freedom allowing him to play the way he wants. So far he has been absolutely amazing in my pre-season. Just controls and finishes almost every move I have and if he doesn't finish them, he will pass it off to someone else.

Screenshots

As you can see from that, Kaka has been absolutely amazing infront of goal. I know its just pre-season and that some of the opposition were not very good, but even against Porto and Liverpool he came to the party. Against Liverpool he should have bagged alot more, but Reina made a nuisance of himself to deny me time and time again.

As you can see there, the fixtures have been pretty one-sided affairs with comfortable win's in all of them. The match against Liverpool, the result doesn't give the full picture as I completely played them off the park. Granted most of the opposition is fairly poor when I've gone away from home, and the opposition that was good I did play at Home, but personally I'm quite happy with the return I've gotten from all my players.

Going to test this through-out the current season and see how I get on. Will probably update once I have gotten a better idea of what the formation is like in the competative scene in Serie A.

What is the skin Intercept?

I was hoping to find a tactic like this so will keep my eye on this thread and see what success you have would love to use a tactic like this. Good luck dude.

Its Steklo 09 with a Black Background.

Gotten under-way with my first league game and managed a 1-1 Draw with Udinese. An over the top through ball onto the rushing Quagliarella saw him beat Abbiati, before Kaka finally got a shot on-target managing to salvage a draw in the 94th minute. Completely dominated precedings, but was quite vulnerable to their counter-attack. Also checked and they have a long pitch, so should have seen that sort of thing coming and lowered my D-Line! >.<

So, gotten a few games into the season and its been really succesful. After the annoyance of Udinese, I didn't change anything and managed to go the whole way until Fiorentina before I lost. It was just one of those games. I was 4-1 up and all of a sudden Montilov and Mutu can't miss their free-kicks and rattle in not one, not two but four free-kicks to make it 4-5. Was really ****ed off to the point I actually very nearly broke my computer screen. Anyhow, I didn't. I took a deep breath, smacked my hand against the desk and had to go get ice cause it hurt so much, hence I stopped playing for a little bit. Anyway, here are some more screenies. Rather happy with how its un-folded so far!

League Table

Come'th the Formation. Come'th the Player

Kaka just seems to love this formation. Is always a constant thorn in the side of any defence and just seems to pop up when it matters. Awesome scoring ability and does it for fun!

Edit: I must admit that Abbiati isn't the greatest Goalkeeper and the result against Fiorentina would have gone my way if I had a bit of a better Keeper between the sticks. Some of the free-kicks they scored shouldn't even be worrying a Goal-Keeper much less actually scoring them. Oh well! *sighs*

Is there any chance you can either show some screenies or tell me the settings you use for your back 4?

I am currently trying to make a 4-4-2 with Villarreal I managed to get to 2nd place last season, only conceeding 7 goals at home winning 17 and drawing 2. Away from home was a different matter we scored just as many but let in 26, lost 3 drew 5 and won the rest. I know its a bit off topic but it seems you have got the defensive settings spot on. A peak at Kaka's settings would be good aswell, sorry to ask so much lol.

If you look at my initial post, there is a break-down of each of the positions. If you click on each of the positions, it gives a screenshot of their settings.

Anyhow, managed to get through the season and was pretty happy with the result. Needs to be worked on, but I think I'm getting somewhere.

League Table

As you can see, a really good season over-all managing to claim the Title. Only lost two those to Fiorentina and Inter Milan away from home (one was technically at home though ;p). Quite pleased with how clinical we were and how free-scoring we managed to be. We also only conceeded 19 which was a good tally as I felt Abbiati was very very fragile when tested. If not for Nesta and Thiago working in tandum beautifully I think it could have been alot worse.

Player of the Season and Formation

The Hero of it all. Kaka was absolutely amazing upfront. He just seemed to love getting the ball and when he did, he conjured up magic. He was injured for the bulk of the back-end of the season thus he didn't get as much game-time as I would have liked. I personally feel he has ALOT more goals in him which I'm going to try and get out of him. Otherwise, I'm quite happy with where I have gotten with the formation.

Will update as best I can with any change's I make!

Edit: Just got this little message coming through!

I see now lol.

I have never used a closing down so high on all the team apart from the STs. Might give that ago and see what happens. Looks like you are doing really well, if Kaka never got injured he would have got a fair few more goals I think.

Amazing season and performance of Kaka!

I have not had much time to play, and coincidentally I lost my first game away to ....Fiorentina. I am having very mixed results:

Catania away 0-0 very bore draw. They also play the Udinese 433 so I kept everything the same but no luck whatsoever. Maybe I really need an away tactic

Legia (Uefa qualifing) away 0-1, goal from Shevchenko (set piece), just a scrappy win and another poor performance.

Another 1-0 win at home (I cannot recall against whom), freekick from Pirlo

Away to Roma, 0-0 but I was completely outplayed by their Christmas three, they had 30 shots and I only had 6.....

Then I won against Genoa to my own surprise. I've always struggled against 343 formations, but I ended up winning 1-4, three goals from set pieces (no corners) and a long shot from Ronaldinho.

Legia at home: 6-0, finally a good performance.

Chievo away 1-2, they scored on a counter.

I have noticed that playing through the middle is not the way to go, not even with only central midfielders so I keep focus passing on mixed. Furthermore, I do not seem to dominate and rely on set pieces + an occasional touch of brilliance from one of my players.

With Ronaldinho, Pirlo and Kaka I have 3 playmakers (according to their profile), but whoever gets the job, does not cope well with it. So maybe I really need to change my tactics and not use the defaults.....

Is it possible to leave everyone on global mentality + closing down? Those are the two sliders which give me real headaches....whatever theory or idea I read on this forum, I always get it wrong if I try to apply it.

And the amc position, ah well, it is as if the player who has to play there is immediately cursed and underperforms.....

I have noticed that all your players are on an attacking mentality, even the DC's.... Do you also use these settings away from home? Maybe I should play more attacking too rather than wanting a rather balanced squad with less offensive mentalities....

Keniris

I've noticed and read up on (there is a thread by SFraser about it) that the more attacking you make a defender, the more risk-taking he will be when challenging opposition in his half. He will try to make risky interceptions and make more tackles cause he is more focused on getting the ball back and getting on with possesion than taking less risks and making sure they are secure at the back. Thus I've got my defenders quite attacking which means the ball gets played out of defence quickly and gets to the players I want to be on the ball.

Quite frankly I've never really been one to have split mentalities. If I can I will always have my mentalities on Global as its easier to change should it be needed and the team plays more like a unit as they move forward together and move back together. Its also the first time I've really worked with my DC's on extremely high closing down, but I've found it works alot, as the forward strikers are generally high up the field and as I want my DC's closing down alot, they tend to stick to their marker better than get pulled out of position. The reason my closing down is so low on my DMC, AMC and FC's is because I want them doing as little work as they can and being in better positions when we get the ball.

I disagree about playing through the middle. As you can see by my settings I play through the middle and it has worked wonders. Short passing with a wide width and passing through the middle basically allows for Gattuso and Flamini (my two MC's) to drift wide pulling the opposition MC's away from Pirlo and Ronaldhino (my DMC and AMC) who will drift into space in the center of the field which is where most of the passing takes place. I've found its really effective and worked really well.

My Playmaker is Pirlo as well, who I have set as a deep-lying playmaker. He players infront of the back-four and works the ball from the back, but his settings are such that he gets forward alot more often than he sits back. He has been the pinnacle player for me in the formation outside of Kaka who was just amazing in his own right.

Over-all I'm really happy with how the formation played out. Going to do my second season with now having added Akinfeev, Torres, Moutinho, Veloso and Miguel Torres to the squad. Cover for basically every position and with Gourcuff now coming alive I think Ronaldhino is going to be challenged for the AMC slot which he completely controlled last season, where he managed 29 goals and 18 assists from.

I'll PM you a copy of my formation to look at if you want, but atm not really up for uploading it publicy as I feel some changes are needed!

EDIT: Okay I made a mistake when setting up my friendlies for the new season and made one of them at Home. Now I understand that this was a weak opposition and that it was expected that we would get a fair few goals at the San Siro against them. But I mean come on, this was pathetic. Both Kaka and Torres got 10.0 ratings. It was insane how clinical the team was whenever they got into the opposition third we seemed to score and if we weren't scoring, we were smashing the bar or post.

Still feel there is alot more to give in this formation and maybe need to iron out a few flaw's I keep seeing. But that scoreline was a little un-realistic even if we were at home and with a full team line-up.

Any chance of PMing me this tactic so I give it ago as Chelsea?

End of Season Two. Again Kaka was amazing, but personally I dislike how many wasted oppourtunities my other striker is giving away. Even with Torres who is rated as one of the best strikers in the game was atrocious when put through in the formation yet he still managed to constantly get good ratings, which was what was even more baffling to me. Anyhow, here are some new screenies. Not changing the team for next season as I'm happy with it as it is.

League Results

Not the best of seasons. Quite frankly away from home we just couldn't put games to rest and always ended up conceeding in the dying moments which was utterly frustrating. Need to get the formation to have a little more cutting edge from other area's of the field. Otherwise a decent season, second in both scoring and conceeding departments to only Inter who were lucky to get where they were. Juve managed to pip us to Third spot as they had a better head to head against us annoyingly.

Team and Player of the Season

As you can see, Torres had the second best average rating even though in 34 appearance's he only managed to find the net 12 times which was a down point for me. Spending £88m on a striker who I believe could finish my attacking threat backfired on me badly. Hopefully he will do better next season now he has had a season to gell with the team.

Of course it is Kaka setting the benchmark for the rest of the team. Just played amazingly as was to be expected but again was injured for portions of the season and with Pato and Torres failing to find the net in his absence, it was an annoying period to go through.

Those are my manager stats so far with the formation. Not the greatest to look at to be completely honest, but could be alot worse.

To Do List.

• Get more than Kaka scoring freely. lower the long-shot ratings on the rest of the team, as alot of un-neccesary shots are taken most of the time.

• Tighten up the defence. Even with only 32 goals hitting the back of the net this season, I think we can lower that alot. Possibly drop Pirlo as my playmaker and look to bring Flamini to DMC with Pirlo further up the pitch instead?

• Get the Second Striker performing to a standard that I'm happy with. Even though Torres had the second best average rating in the team, I was really un-impressed with how he went about his business on the field. Just couldn't seem to hit the back of the net.

EDIT: Sent you a copy, should be in your inbox! ;p

Could you also pm me this ? Ill also try with MILAN and try and work on both strikers

TIA

Yes PM me your tactic please.

I am going global as well I think, also for the reason that changes can be easily made in the team instructions menu.

You play quite fast I must say, I always get frustrated after an hour or so and play some call of duty as an 'anger management' thing :-)

The thing is, I read everywhere how easily some manage to win everything while I seem so struggle even with the best of teams.

Intercept, I think the mentality for your Torres-striker slot is way too high. It is almost complete gungho, meaning he will shoot on sight almost all the time from everyone....thus wasting a lot of chances for himself and his teammates.

I think you should give this striker fwr none, I agree with the TTF theories that the more advanced striker with no fwr and the creative one with often fwr works very well. Of course I would not mess with your Kaka setup as is is quite brilliant.

Maybe you can put cross ball on rarely, forcing him to stay more central and finish off whatever changes his teammates create for him.

I suppose the ttb on often is for Kaka to run onto?

Keniris

The TTB was on Often for Kaka to run onto, but I found that like you said, Torres was just shooting on sight. I've tinkered with some settings and so far I'm really happy with how its going. I'll get some screenies up once I've finished the season and than possibly if I'm happy enough with it, post the formation publicly! *gasps*

Okay end of my third season and I tried something new in this one. It limited Kaka a fair bit (but so did the countless injuries he picked up in games keeping him out of the league matches, as he only played 22 of 38) but it allowed Torres (or the second striker) to come into the game more instead of being a virtual by-stander.

League Table

As you can see the difference was noticable with Torres contributions as we walked away with the league. It helped that Inter had an absolutely awful start and never really recovered but even if they hadn't they just wouldn't have been able to keep up with us as by the half way point we had a 13 point gap over Roma.

That is how all the players performed. Kaka was awesome as usual and really did play well when he was fit, but Torres stole the show this year, managing to keep us alive even when Kaka was injured. Pato and Paloschi were both useful when they were needed and Gourcuff was amazing in that hole behind the strikers.

As you can see from that we managed to get into the Champs League final, but lost out on Penalties to Barcelona with Thiago Silva being the candidate who missed the crucial penalty for us. We also lost in both the domestic cup competitions to Inter, both of which were games that were played on a knife's edge. We dominated for parts and in parts were out-played. Quite frankly we just weren't clinical enough upfront in either of the games with Kaka missing both and Torres missing the Italian Cup defeat. So with Pato and Paloschi upfront it was always going to be a tough ask to win it.

I'm still not going to upload the formation as I still am not happy with it and think its pointless to upload something I'm going to update in a few moments, so going to try this last attempt and if it works to my satisfaction I'll upload it!

Hey Intercept that is some great stuff you have posted, but have you ever considered how maybe Kaka's goal tally and Creative Freedom might be related, just like Fernando Torres?

If you take a good long look at those guys you will notice that the differences between them are trully minor. I might even go out on a limb and suggest that the majority of goals you score come from those two linking up after a decent pass from midfield that one of them controlled brilliantly.

Infact from what you have posted let me do a little theorising:

1. Your flanks are almost useless even when you get men there.

2. You are rarely off-side but sometimes mis-time runs or fail to spot passes. In other words the pass bounces off your leg or someone shoots rather than feeding a totally free striker.

3. Lots of first time volleys go either high and wide or straight into the corner of the net.

4. Kaka gets the ball and Torres makes a run and there is a little dinked pass and you are one-on-one and its a goal. And that is how you score even if it is vice-versa.

My advice to you, unless all of those are wrong, is to completely ignore the stuff about mentality you have read so far and remember that mentality controls the risk of a run, height of positioning, and the risk of a forward pass at the same time. Forward Run does not control risk evaluation but timing of a run. Early-neutral-late. You can have both Torres and Kaka on the same mentality (perfection of pass-run timing) but have Kaka FWR Rare and Torres FWR Often so that Torres is always ahead of Kaka to disrupt that defence or latch onto that long through ball.

With a good AMC the issue of identical positioning of both strikers is reduced. Get the AMC causing havoc in the defence and get your strikers on the same wavelength.

The final issue is Tempo. Your strikers are fast as lightening. They get to the ball first. You don't need low Tempo for them to make good choices when they are flying through defences. Crank up the Tempo and set anyone that cannot handle it to HUB. Tempo plus pace plus decent mental attributes means your strikers will rip defences and be in acres of space to pick the simple pass quickly. Crank Tempo up and use HUB to control failure.

One last point, don't reduce Creative Freedom. Reduce long shots or TTB or RWB but not Creative Freedom. Those guys are lethal so tell them what to do and let them do it their own way.

I am gonna give it a go with Milan I think but I was wondering do you think Lampard could play the role that Kaka does, if he was retrained?

SFraser

It's actually funny you mention Creative Freedom. My general idea was that I wanted Torres further up the field playing to strict instructions and it worked out horribly. My newest forward design I decided to up Torres Creative Freedom to Kaka's and they basically have the exact same settings which has seem a drastic improvement in Torres performances.

And I'll answer your 4 points.

1. My flanks (when my RB and LB decide to move up-field) only serve to pull the oppositions ML and MR away from my MC's. The ball rarely goes to the wings and when it does, its generally played back into the middle rather than worked on.

2. Torres gets caught off-side once or twice a match, but most of the time he is generally on-side when we are in possesion in the final third.

3. Correct, this is actually where I want to pull my hair out with Kaka and Gourcuff. When they nestle into the corner I'm over-joyed but when they miss (and this happens more often than not) I'm trying not to kill the little circles on the screen.

4. Most of the time that is correct, unless Kaka or Torres decide they want to take on 4 defenders and do the impossible.

I must admit I didn't think of the "Forward Run" setting like that, but what you are saying makes sense to some extent. I may tinker with Gourcuff going on that information now and see if I can get him performing to an even better standard than I currently have him playing at.

Again something I didn't think of. Using a quick tempo in conjunction with HUB. Something I'm going to have to tinker with as well!

This is just how the team is performing this season with the changed settings to Torres.

And these are the settings I'm actually employing on Torres.

I am gonna give it a go with Milan I think but I was wondering do you think Lampard could play the role that Kaka does, if he was retrained?

It is hard to beat acceleration, dribbling and agility in strikers for those kind of formations simply because they can beat men when in possession, but as the AMC in that formation especially if given instructions to advance and arrive late the Lampard does look the business.

You cannot really beat Anticipation, Composure, Teamwork, Off-The-Ball and Decisions in an AMC unless of course the guy has brilliant Creativity. 20 Creativity in a guy with anticipation and composure and off-the-ball and teamwork of under 10 is pretty meaningless. What Lampard lacks in Creativity he makes up for in teamplay and ability to handle the pressure of midfield.

@ Intercept

Looking at your performances it is quite clear what is going on. Your strikers are world class and linking up brilliantly as should be expected. Because you are playing two of them you are effectively doubling the likelyhood of a pass sticking and when a pass does stick you are creating chances. The width of target for your midfielders is large because you play two strikers, and because they are both so good then even fairly rubbish play that makes it successfully to one guy is being turned into golden chances.

Nothing wrong with that, Aston Villa play the same way on the counter and so do Manchester United. Most teams rely upon the same.

Creative Freedom and Tactical Instructions are not the same beast. If you reduce a tactical instruction there is less likelyhood of a player taking that option unless the success possbility is big. Creative Freedom works within those confines. Low TTB then few throughballs of any type but awsome dribbles and tricky shots. Low Longshots with high CF and high TTB then the guy is going to hit the dinked "scholes" chip and not lash the ball towards goal. Creative Freedom is almost a no brainer at high levels, tough to judge at low levels.

The HUB instruction only tells players to "calm down". At high Tempo it means take a controlling touch before choosing your option. With HUB on my strikers at maximum tempo their first shots are more careful or they take a touch. Without it, the shot often goes into the stand. The key with Tempo is if the pass is totally on and the guy spots it, he will over-ride HUB and play it, without HUB of he doesn't spot it he wont take some care. You might call it a "hedge bet" move where rather than take the first option if it is crap but the only one he spots he takes a touch instead or atleast calms down.

My own team has a similar variation in ratings and I notice on-pitch that my team scores a lot of goals through the linkup of my strikers, despite the crap ratings of my midfield. The key issue is therefore to increase supply and improve midfield performances while harnassing the strikers to make sure they link up. Your guys are obviously linking up, but perhaps closing their mentality gap, adapting FWR and increasing tempo while fiddling with HUB might produce both a more "same level" link up and a higher rate of football movement while still demanding care and attention to options in key areas.

In my opinion HUB is the difference between haste and care as defined by Tempo. High Tempo and no HUB means first time moves at all times. Good for hitting throughballs, not so good when your striker is a bit dim at spotting passes and the ball is dropping on his strong foot at a rediculous angle inside the box. Get a great playmaker at high tempo and no HUB with two great pacey Strikers making brilliant runs told to HUB for each other and that is easilly a big problem for the opponent.

I really want to make the issue about Tempo and HUB as in my experience it is incredibly potent. Low Tempo is effectively a "take care" instruction, play it slow and weight options. Low Tempo and HUB is almost a "waste time" instruction. High Tempo and no HUB means play it fast under all conditions. High Tempo and HUB means prefer to play it fast when the chance is on, otherwise take a touch and think again. In my experience it is significant.

Back to your team, I would suggest someone like Iniesta if you can get/find one for AMC or for the side of your midfield covered by the strongest part of your defence. Someone with Creativity, Anticipation, Composure, Decisions, Teamwork and Passing Accuracy in AMC would destroy your opposition in midfield and only be bettered by someone with high Off-The-Ball movement. Rooney might be worth a punt if possible for that role. His passing accuracy is a bit lame but his movement and grit cannot be matched. Likewise his anticipation is not top notch but your guys are fast upfront. Rooney behind Kaka and Torres with maximum training in Attacking (creativity and passing) and maximum Creative Freedom with the right Tactical Instructions would be quite close to a silly team.

SFraser

Alot of food for thought. Definately going to play around with some of the settings now. Here is a PKM of my latest match. What I've done is up'ed the tempo, changed the FWR settings on my AMC and FC (Kaka), applied HUB to the players I felt needed it (only just read your latest post so a fair few of the shots from Torres and Kaka did look quite rushed, which has lead me to apply HUB to Kaka) and put Kaka and Torres on the same Mentality.

A.C. Milan vs Sampdoria

Was happy with scoring five goals, but I still feel there is quite a bit of room for improvement.

Edit: A question for you. With what you are saying, would it be in my interest to change my Playmaker from my DMC to my AMC instead?

SFraser

Alot of food for thought. Definately going to play around with some of the settings now. Here is a PKM of my latest match. What I've done is up'ed the tempo, changed the FWR settings on my AMC and FC (Kaka), applied HUB to the players I felt needed it (only just read your latest post so a fair few of the shots from Torres and Kaka did look quite rushed, which has lead me to apply HUB to Kaka) and put Kaka and Torres on the same Mentality.

A.C. Milan vs Sampdoria

Was happy with scoring five goals, but I still feel there is quite a bit of room for improvement.

Edit: A question for you. With what you are saying, would it be in my interest to change my Playmaker from my DMC to my AMC instead?

Mate everyone feels there is room for improvement even after scoring 5.

For the playmaker point, that depends entireally on who you want the ball given to as often as possible. Generally a good idea for the team to pass to someone in space and someone with good passing accuracy and intelligence. You don't want your Centrebacks lumping balls in the air to Kaka or playing rushed passes in defence to someone with 10 Anticipation.

Tricky question that one on playmakers.

I have just kicked off you match against Sampdoria but looking at the starting lineups right away you need to have Moutinho in AMC and Veloso alongside Flamini. Do what you like with Gourcuff but don't play him in that awsome team

Moutinho = Fabregas.

Veloso = My next left back if he wasnt so expensive.

You need to look hard at these guys attributes. Your defence doesnt need positional cover, it needs pace and grit. Your midfield needs Veloso and your AMC position needs Moutinho.

Only just kicked off so I will come back here at 90 minutes with my tail between my legs if I am wrong.

Couldn't resist there, and it is no criticism of you here but within 5 minutes it is obvious you have the intelligence and teamwork and position and smart guys in the wrong place. Gourcuff doesn't know where he is supposed to be and the rest of your midfield is on the button. You could be passed around for ages in the hole he is leaving. You are also playing far too wide; Torres is no winger. Veloso and Moutinho are ruling your midfield but they are passes from DMC to MC and not MC to AMC. Gourcuff is exciteable and you really need those striker close together and central to feed off of Moutinho. Do you see how mental stats of Moutinho and Veloso are dominating physical challenges? You might not knock the opponent over but you can still flick the ball away from his head.

You need to look hard at these guys attributes. Your defence doesnt need positional cover, it needs pace and grit. Your midfield needs Veloso and your AMC position needs Moutinho.

That is EXACTLY what I needed against Torino in the very next fixture. I lined up with the same starting eleven and the ball just wasn't being worked quick enough to the players I wanted it to get to. After your latest comments I've setup my team like this now.

I have Free-Role ticked through-out the Midfield and Attack now. I've up'ed the Creative Freedom on Flamini and Veloso and I've set HUB onto my RB, LB, CB's, DMC, AMC and FC (Kaka). I've reverted my Playmaker back to Pirlo as he sits infront of the defense and is still an amazingly talented player at DMC.

Edit: On the Image, It's meant to be N'Koulou instead of Nesta.

That is EXACTLY what I needed against Torino in the very next fixture.

If you were playing against Inter for example then Veloso in DM would be a godsend, whereas Pirlo would be outplayed.

Against Sampdoria, the game I am watching, your defence is eating their forward balls so far and a simple pass from DM to Veloso in midfield to Moutinho in AMC then to one of the narrow strikers would be wreaking havoc. The weakspot so far, and I am only 6 minutes in, is that Veloso is ruling DM but being wasted there and Gourcuff is battling hard in AMC and giving it great guns but has no mental ability in terms of exploiting space, calming down, taking good positions or choosing good options.

It looks a like a great team you have (after 6 minutes ) but you should look for a destroyer of a DM and really rip through that CM area with the talent you have. You have some of the best playmakers in the game by an utter mile. Not just playmakers, but players. The game totally responds to mental ability at high levels.

2-0 up after 7 minutes. You should get Rooney for Gourcuff and stick Flamini in DM. You are totally dominating them but you have your footballing genius in the wrong places. Torres looks like he is having fun.

SFraser

Okay after alot of shuffling around with players and fiddling through-out the Palermo game I just had, I can definately see the difference with the sort of play you are talking about. When I dropped Flamini to DMC, put Moutinho and Veloso alongside one another in MC and brought on Dzagoev into the AMC role the passing didn't seem to go side-ways as much and seemed to be funelled forward into Torres or Kaka from Dzagoev deft touches (it looked like that at least).

Definately can see the difference between having Gourcuff and Dzagoev in that role and how Moutinho, Veloso and Flamini are working the midfield. It's quite startling to be honest. O.o

SFraser

Okay after alot of shuffling around with players and fiddling through-out the Palermo game I just had, I can definately see the difference with the sort of play you are talking about. When I dropped Flamini to DMC, put Moutinho and Veloso alongside one another in MC and brought on Dzagoev into the AMC role the passing didn't seem to go side-ways as much and seemed to be funelled forward into Torres or Kaka from Dzagoev deft touches (it looked like that at least).

Definately can see the difference between having Gourcuff and Dzagoev in that role and how Moutinho, Veloso and Flamini are working the midfield. It's quite startling to be honest. O.o

It all boils down to attributes, roles and instructions. Yeah sure Veloso is an amazingly intelligent DM but he is also an amazingly intelligent CM and your defence is mopping up most attacks without breaking sweat.

I watched 25 minutes of your match and you were 4-0 up. I didn't watch much more as the second half is all about the teamtalk and tells me nothing of tactics really, plus all the real action had ended

What I saw in that first 25 minutes was that your tactics and players were working well, but those minor improvements you are after were to be found in the personell you choose, the width you play at and your tempo.

I will always maintain that while Pace and physical attributes define those games that are battles, it is mental attributes that define the peak teams of football manager. Dzagoev is an amazing AMC let down only by the fact that his Flair does not match his brilliant attributes.

You have a team that can only be improved by buying players and adapting your tactics and personell on a game by game basis. With the right players in your squad you could quite easilly never have to change tactics at all, apart from maybe your width.

Width, HUB, Free Role and Tempo are all hugely context dependent tactics. They are all about putting players in the right positions and giving them the instructions to exploit the opponent.

I really enjoyed your match and couldn't see much I would change other than the position of Veloso and your of using Gourcuff (especially if you own Dzagoev!).

Let me give you one of my matches, and yes it is an edited team and all that kind of stuff but I have more than one save and this one gives me a lot of fun. Hope you enjoy it, and I hope you see the points of players for roles, Maximum Creative Freedom even with failure, and Width and HUB for certain players. I will give you a hint and say that only the wingers have HUB (how ironic is that?)

My save.

Plus it gives a good account of the 4-4-2.

Watch your favourite players in action, and around the 16th minute is a move of utter beauty. If you watch anything then watch that move.

Talk about pinned back eh? Got to love that football.

A.C. Milan vs Napoli

Thats the latest PKM of mine. A fair improvement in general play. 3-1 final score (they score in the 92 minute, Pirlo mistake after I brought him on for Moutinho.).

As for that 16th minute move. It was awesome. One touch football from defense to attack with Aguero nearly finishing off the move perfectly if not Gordon! Now you have me on a mission to get my team playing like that!

Edit: Okay that was game was a little one sided you think?

As for that 16th minute move. It was awesome. One touch football from defense to attack with Aguero nearly finishing off the move perfectly if not Gordon! Now you have me on a mission to get my team playing like that!

Edit: Okay that was game was a little one sided you think?

Totally one sided to be fair and it hardly emphasises my expertise on the tactical side of the game (which I have never tried to magnify as I get beat regularly with my ignorance ingame), but some of the movement was lovely and some of the play was gorgeous and I just wanted to share.

As for that move at 16 minutes, the fact is you cannot really control that type of play. You can define certain boundaries for players to play in and try and get the right players in the right place at the right time, and then control their actions through particular tactical sliders, but you cannot control their vision or choices or accuracy.

The real point of this thread as it has turned out is that players are defined by their attributes and the general instructions you give them. You cannot control details but you can influence behaviour of players you understand. The game I posted is no micro-management genius but it drives home the truth that players behave how their attributes determine. Get great players in the right areas and you don't really need to do much with the tactics other than sit back and watch.

You cannot stop Torres shooting but you can tell him to calm down and look for options and you can bring Kaka up in support fast. You cannot define the perfect throughball from the AMC area but you can get two amazingly fast strikers with brilliant off-the-ball movement ahead of someone that is a footballing genius.

It is not up to you what they do, but it is up to you where they play and what options you want to magnify in importance. Knowing that you cannot define any particular action but can influence many actions for a player and then stick him in a certain position where his ability and options change is the whole point of FM. You do not have direct control but you are a huge influence.

Just like real life in management, understand your players. Tactics, motivation, development, the lot.

SFraser

Nicely said. As I said this is definately alot of food for thought and I'm going to continue tinkering with the formation, but not tonight. My brain is completely fried from trying to comprehend and utilize the information you have been feeding me. So I'm going to save my game and come back tomorrow, re-read everything you have posted and than look at making the formation a fair bit more solid!

Thanks again!

No problem. I really enjoyed our discussion.

Just to add one thing for when you are re-designing your tactics tomorrow, all instructions are influences on behaviour not tactical absolutes. That is really the big thing to get to grips with in FM09.

So I'm finally back into the game and I took a time-out from the game's to just tinker with my settings on the tactic screen. I sat for a few minutes (about 15 or so) just running through each player looking at their stats and looking at what I wanted each of them to be doing on the ball and off-the ball. Anyhow, I setup the team to how I felt I wanted them playing and these are the string of results I've managed.

And here is how the team is performing. As you can see both Torres and Kaka are now linking up alot better see'ing a drastic increase in both their goal-scoring tallies.

Overall really happy with how we are playing now. We seem alot more solid and definately a much bigger threat when moving forward. The passing is moving nicely and Dzagoev is proving to be ALOT better AMC than Gourcuff had proven to be.

That is just a show-case of how well my front trio are linking up now. They are just playing so well now. Really have to thank you for some of those suggestions SFraser as they have re-defined how I'm looking at the instructions and I'm getting alot more out of my players as I'm playing them where they should be being played!

Okay ended my latest season and was hugely impressed by Torres, Kaka and Dzagoev but undoubtably the player of the year has to go to Flamini who become so influential at DMC when I dropped him there. It was startling how big a difference those minor changes you suggested, SFraser, actually were. The team just seemed to go from good to brilliant and didn't seem to be able to lose even when put against the wall and against top opposition. Anyway, usual screenshots coming up!

League Table

Utter Domination by us. Inter were breathing down our neck's for most of the season until the mid-point where we met them at the San Siro (Home) and dominated them taking a 2-0 victory with Torres and Kaka scoring the goals. At that point I had the change to the tactic and personal which saw the team demolish any opposition in our path with only Roma taking points off us away from home as the parked the bus for a 0-0 draw.

Kaka Overview - Torres Overview

Both Kaka and Torres were absolutely lethal upfront linking up amazingly time after time with Dzagoev picking up the pieces when he needed to to make a very fearsome trio upfront.

Kaka managed to do that as well, which I felt was a rather good achievement as he walked to the Serie A golden boot with 36 goals overall.

That is how the team performed overall. Was impressed with just about every player that I used! Was really happy with the formation!

4-4-2 Diamond - Thats the formation I used for the latter of the season and the one which I'm probably not going to change. The only change I make is my width depending on who I'm playing or how I want to play. Would love some feedback on it, but I must warn people that if you try it, it isn't a tactic for just any team. I do have some of the best players in the world in the positions, so it may be a little too demanding for a lower level team.

That is pretty wicked 9 goals let in what a difference. The whole team played brilliantly aswell, will give it ago when I start as AC Milan or Chelsea or whoever my next game is as I am going for a top team next.

AcidBurn

Been a really nice experience getting this formation working. The biggest part of the formation has to be the diamond. Getting the right players playing in the right position's really changed the course of alot of results. At Chelsea (without a changed squad) I would probably have Essien at the bottom, Lampard and Ballack in the middle with Deco at the top. If you brought players in I would bring in Veloso and Moutinho and than look at another lightning quick Striker. With the addition of Veloso and Moutinho I would play Essien at DMC, Moutinho and Veloso next to each other at MC and than Lampard at the top of the diamond. Drogba and Anelka would be decent starters but I personally think that Kaka and Torres really showed that the quicker the striker, the better in this formation.

I will probably just go with AC Milan, I have never bought Veloso or Moutinho on FM09 so will be interested in getting them. I would prefer David Villa over Torres personally, I will let you know if I get going on it as I am into my Villarreal game at the moment. Thanks for creating this seems you with SFrasers help have created a very good tactic.

I am enjoying playin Fm with this tactic, Pato and Kaka both have a fair share amount of goals but mainly because when Pato scores he scores more than 1. Other than that Kaka has been outstanding having more goals and assists.

L.McDaDe

If it's the formation I sent you, glad to see its working well for you. But I must admit in comparison to how my current team performs, the change's are quite startling like I said.

This is my ideal line-up.

With the addition of Fabregas at AMC the team is now "complete" in my eye's. The way the team is playing is as close to a form of art as I could ever want them to be. I really am enjoying playing this formation with this team, although like SFraser said, with the level of players I have all you have to do is give them outlines of what you want them to do and watch them go about it in their own way.

Intercept

Who is your playmaker?!

Lokkker

Its Flamini or Pirlo. Depending on who I'm playing is depending on which of I'm them I'm using but its always my DMC that is my Playmaker. Stronger opposition and I'll use Flamini to not only utilize his defensive qualities but his mental one's and against weaker opposition it will be Pirlo as he can pick-out passes and execute them alot better.

Can you post screenies of your instructions for the front three? Thanks

kajito99

These are my AMC's settings.

These are my FC's settings. Both of my FC have the same settings, I found they worked better together when I did this, hence I haven't tinkered with them.

Intercept: You haven't had any problem with offsides? Having both FCs have FWR often usually means that there will be quite a few offsides and they won't be getting the ball.

boomheadshot45

I get a fair few offsides, but no I never have any serious problems with it. With Free-Role ticked, they always look to drop into space and considering my Strikers are Kaka and Torres, they know when to hold their run and when to take it. Its the thing with this formation and tactic I've created, it does require a certain level of player to utilize.

I'm currently experimenting with the same formation but slightly less demanding tempo and personal instructions and its going okay with Leeds, but its nothing special or overly amazing.

Hi intercept , can send me pm your tactic ? i have started a new career and i look for a 4-1-2-1-2 tnk

baldazaar

There is a link to it, it being the filefront file, at the bottom of post #36.

Intercept: Torres is a ST and not a FC so presumably has a free role rating lower than 15. However your settings clearly seem to be working so would you recommend free role with any striker with good OTB and decisions?