Genuine questions and help (update pics)

[frustatedmanager]

Hello everyone and merry x-mas.

So i'm playing as auxerre and the formation i'm employing is 4-1-4-1 wide.Now i get that ligue 2 is a very even league but i have somewhat a very weird experience with the game.Long story short i try to win the league first season even if the expectations are to get play off placement.So i never scum save and i find myself starting over and over as i seem to always finish third or forth within 1-5 points difference from first place while being top or second until the last five games (lorient always tops the league).

To get to the point now,what i'm experiencing is that AI teams play a very nice flowing attacking football with their players don't being afraid to backpass on the flanks and center when it's needed to find better openings and in general they don't rush their attacks and this occurs from top table teams to mid lower table teams.My team never backpasses (except when we are just outside the opponent box and with work ball into the box checked) and always rushes ahead even though i play short passes and default width or narrow and slower tempo.

Problems i see (extended highlights)

1)attacking wide players (inside winger or inside forward roles) never cuts inside from the wings with ball they always rush forward and they end up being isolated.why? (AI behavior of wide players is as a normal footballer they will stop and play the ball to acm/cm/dm or fb/wb if there is no opportunity)

2)when defending my players always seem to a)never win the ball and make a counter attack highlight b)getting easily outplayed by opponent passes (nice flawing football i was talking about) c)not really defending,awful defensive placement and always being dribbled even by the poorest dribblers.why??

3)cms and fb/wb never get good offensive positions except if the ball somehow ends up inside opponents box otherwise the just stay too deep,why? (ai players always take good positions at final third having 6-8 players at key positions)

4)i'm trying to play through middle and i find it impossible.Players keep hoofing the ball from defense for no real reason and wide players keep crossing the ball even if I play them as IF and IW and tell them not to.

Now if i was going against very stronger teams i would get it why this is happening (outplayed ,better players,better attributes,better tactics) but we cannot play nice football as the AI with better or even players.At this point i might add that if i can achieve playing nice flawing football i don't care winning or losing 5-0 every game or promotion,i just want my players to perform but god they play awful.You may ask and how are you placing so high?And there comes my players quality which makes it unbearable as why we can't play nice.

Sorry for the text and if you read it please help me!Do you fellow managers witness the same or I'm going crazy? I'want some advises and a formation please!!  

[summatsupeer]

Without specific example of your tactic and/or images its a bit of a guess.

1. It sounds like your playing on higher mentalities which tells the players to take more risks and a simple back pass goes against that. Could also be the role and/or duty used.

2. High pressing can make it easy for opponents to play flowing football through you whilst they're probably more conservative defensively so don't really give you opportunities to counter attack due to the numbers they keep back.  It's hard to play nice flowing football against teams who are defensive, i'd be surprised if you can't play like that against more expansive teams who give you space.

3. Really don't know what you mean without examples.  If AI can do it so can you though so again likely the role/duty being used.

4. There's two teams involved, just because you want to play through the middle doesn't mean you can.  If they pack the middle how are you making them leave that area to then exploit it?  Hoofing it is likely a player attribute and/or trait issue.

I'd recommend starting your run and posting your setup and explaining why it fits your team, then we can offer suggesting and help develop it in the direction you want.

[frustatedmanager]

Firstly I want to thank you kind stranger for your time and answers.I won't argue for the sake of arguing but here are my thoughts about what you said.I will try to post some pics as you said,so you can help my when i can.

1)I do really play on higher mentalities usualy because as I said I find my players sitting too deep and not helping the build up play or/and threat the opponent.Usually its positive to attacking mentality,from your answer I understand that players don't get higher on the pitch but they get more urgent to get the ball forward?So if i set defensive mentalities they will pass the ball around and gradually build the attack and get to offensive positions?

2)I understand what you say and I accept it.I will try defensive mentalities as well to keep numbers at back.As for expansive teams I do see space but my players are being too isolated to get advantage of it (as i said players sitting too deep even though playing higher mentalities narow or default width,huge gaps between lines).

3)I have tried different roles but usually I play with dm on defense duty , a cm on attack  duty and the other as classic "10" (can't remember the english term right now-free playmaker?) and fb on support duty.I said usually because i find that bbm and cm support sitting even deeper than the other roles.Now from what you said I find contradict that AI plays "packed defensive mentalities" but they find themselves with 6-8 players at key positions on final third,but I can't with higher mentalities with the above roles.

4)Tottaly agree two teams are involved but thats what I'm trying to exploit with short passes lower tempo work the ball around until we find an opening and get into more advanced positions but as i said,once the ball gets on the wings IF and IW just rush ahead and central players just sit deep and so do the fbs.As for hoofing auxerre have two of the best ball playing defenders without any traits and while having easy options to pass either to the wings or center they keep the ball for around 1-2 seconds and then just give the ball away.(i play them as CD defend duty,not BPD).

And to rant a bit we are talking only about my team and instructions,AI teams with poor attributes players just not doing any tactical mistakes?They always seem to keep their cool and pass around like world class players!

[rockpie]

You have to keep in mind that what you see playing out during a game is the combined effects of all your tactical instructions, roles, and player decisions playing out against the AIs tactical instructions, roles, player decisions, etc.

AI teams with poor attributes will perform well against you if their tactical setup matches up well against yours. Not seeing them making mistakes, etc. is only a graphical representation of the fact that your tactics are not set up well to beat them.

Generally, people who struggle against weaker teams don't take into account that these teams will be looking to defend deeper and counter attack you, and the AI manager will likely have chosen the right roles to achieve this. So you not only have to figure out the best way of breaking down a deep-sitting defense, but also look at how your team is set up to defend against the counter-attacks you know will be coming.

If you're not seeing them making mistakes, being forced into clearances, misplacing passes etc. then you have to ask yourself how you can try to force those things to happen more often.

Post a screenshot, or detailed breakdown, of your tactics and maybe people can help with more specific tips.

Once we know all the Team Instructions, Player Roles and Player Instructions that you're using then maybe we can highlight something you can change.

[frustatedmanager]

Thanks for your point of view rockpie and your time.Here are pics of my tactic and another one with my perspective of general responsibility areas of each player.

Light blue are fbs,red cds,yellow wingers,purple dm,grey cm left one,blue forward.I haven't paint anything for roaming playmaker because i think he could be anywhere but mainly central positions where he finds empty spaces.

Any advise is welcomed.

[Experienced Defender]

4 hours ago, frustatedmanager said:

Your in-possession instructions (plus the Hold shape in transition) suggest that you want to play very patient possession-based football. But at the same time, your out-of-possession TIs (plus the Regroup) as well as roles and duties are incompatible with such a style of play. So you first need to decide what style of football you want to play. And of course, you need to take into account your team's quality and reputation relative to the league.

[frustatedmanager]

Yes I really want to play a very patient possession based football but i don't really understand why the out of possession TI contradict this.Could you elaborate why?Also i'm very open on roles suggestions which will help me play this kind of football please.Quality wise my team is top 3-5(don't wanna stretch it upwards and say 2-4) but its a very even league (lorient excels),club demands play off placement which is third to fifth table placement.Players attributes are quite good at passing and composure except fbs.

[Experienced Defender]

9 minutes ago, frustatedmanager said:

Yes I really want to play a very patient possession based football but i don't really understand why the out of possession TI contradict this.Could you elaborate why?

Because possession-football means not only moving the ball around slowly and patiently, but also looking to win it back as quickly as possible when you lose it. The regroup instruction obviously runs counter to this. Then you need either higher/much higher LOE or at least a split block coupled with standard LOE. But you also need to have at least decent vertical compactness - i.e. the distance between DL and LOE. With the lower LOE and standard (let alone higher) LOE, your compactness is compromised, which makes it easier for the opposition to play through your lines. Stay on feet (a.k.a. easy tackling) also makes little sense in possession-oriented football for precisely the reason I already mentioned/explained: 

Quote

looking to win the ball back as quickly as possible when you lose it

Then your roles and duties. You have AF and IF on attack, both of which are the most advanced/attack-minded roles in their respective positions. That could make sense in a counter-attacking style, because you want to hit the opponent quickly on the break, so having 2 advanced players that look to immediately attack the space behind/between opposition lines is a good idea (although IF on attack generally works better with DLF on attack than with AF, but that's another story). And they are supported by a deep runner in the form of the CM on attack.

But for a possession-based style, you need more balance between your lines, both vertically and horizontally, because your players need to support each other more closely while moving the ball patiently from defense to attack. 

Finally, offside trap in combination with a low DL can be "suicidal" (unless you have world-class defenders, but even then would be risky). 

[Experienced Defender]

30 minutes ago, frustatedmanager said:

Also i'm very open on roles suggestions which will help me play this kind of football please

Okay. For a heavy possession style that your in-possession TIs suggest you want to play, this is a setup that can make sense:

DLFsu

IWsu                               IFat

DLPsu    BBM

DMde

WBsu   CDde  CDde  FBsu

GK/SKde

In terms of instructions, while your in-possession ones are basically okay, the rest should be changed:

in transition - remove the regroup (you can even try the counter-press instead, but keep in mind that it can backfire if you don't have the right players); not sure if you need to hold shape, because it's likely to create an overkill when applied together with your already heavy possession-based in-possession TIs (I would remove it)

Out of possession - higher DL and higher LOE; or higher DL and standard LOE with a split block; or higher DL and standard LOE with the Prevent short GKD. Offside trap can remain if you move the DL up to higher. No tight marking and no stay on feet. But if your players are not good enough to play safely under these out-of-possession instructions, then you should seriously consider switching to a different style of football (maybe some hybrid style, that combines elements of different styles).