Fluid Counter Help - 5-3-2

[edhdurham]

Hey, I want to try and get the 5-3-2 tactic to work with a fluid counter tactic.  If you use the creator it is a recommend tactic but it seems inconsistent with some of the roles, so this is what I have amended in terms of roles:

SK - D

WB-S  CD-D  CD-D  CD-D  WB-S

BBM-S  BWM-D  CAR-S

PF-A  DLF-S

So just from a roles point of view anything specific look wrong?  I changed the AF-A to a PF-A as its seems to be a similar role and suits the players I have, I changed the CM-D to a BWM-D as teams just seemeed to walk through my midfield.  I am using the default tactics with some minor tweaks (the blue options are the tweaks):

Passing Through The Middle, Hit Crosses Early, Shorter Passing, High Tempo, run at the defence, Attacking Wide Narrow.

Counter, Counter Press, Distribute Quickly, Throw It Long.

Lower Defensive Line, Lower Line of Engagement, Higher Pressing, Get Stuck In, Defensive Width Narrow.

In pre-season I played well but you could see that the defence wasnt quite right, but the BMW-D seemed to help that, then first game Home to Norwich (playing as Newcastle) they totally dominated I struggled to even have a shot, think they had 20+ shots and scored 3 goals.

Re-loaded to test and tried playing with more width especially as the back as Norwich played with players in the AML and AMR position and they had so much space outside with my WBs being so narrow.

So just looking for advice.

 

 

Edited December 11, 2019 by edhdurham

[Experienced Defender]

First off, if you want to play a fluid counter-attack style, then you basically need better players than you would need for the simple direct counter style. 

Okay, let's assume you have such players. What's next?

The mentality: while the preset tactic uses Cautious, I personally would opt for Balanced, in order to encourage a bit faster transitions. You can even go with Positive, but the reason I chose Balanced is that it's the easiest one to set up the tactic. It's a good starting point, simply because it's neither to passive nor to aggressive.

What about roles and duties? This is your setup: 

2 hours ago, edhdurham said:

SK - D

WB-S  CD-D  CD-D  CD-D  WB-S

BBM-S  BWM-D  CAR-S

PF-A  DLF-S

It does not look bad overall, so I would make just a couple of tweaks to add some "fluidity" because... well, it's the "fluid counter". And when I say "fluidity", I am not necessarily referring to the "fluid team shape" label, but rather the fluidity of movement via certain roles. For example, one WB on support could become a CWB on support, and your DLF could be changed into F9 (or even CF, if you have the right player). You changed AF into PFattack, but in this particular case, I would prefer the AF - again for the sake of more fluid movement (or more mobility up front). 

So this would be my starting setup (allowing for the possibility that a couple more tweaks might be needed):

F9/CFsu      AF

CAR     CMde     BBM

CWBsu                                     WBsu

CDde  CDde/st   CD/BPDde

SKde/su

You can also notice that I changed the BWM back into the simple CM on defend, even though you wrote this: 

2 hours ago, edhdurham said:

In pre-season I played well but you could see that the defence wasnt quite right, but the BMW-D seemed to help that, then first game Home to Norwich (playing as Newcastle) they totally dominated I struggled to even have a shot, think they had 20+ shots and scored 3 goals

The reason I would prefer CMde as the holding CM over the BWMde is - well, a BWM is not a real holding role, even if it nominally is. The defensive issues you've been experiencing are more likely caused by certain instructions than the CM on defend as a role. More precisely, I am referring to insufficient vertical compactness and inviting too much pressure from the opposition (i.e. more than your defense can probably handle).

How this can be fixed? Well, the first thing I would do is - move the DL slightly up (from lower to standard), both in order to compress the playable space for the opposition between my lines and keep them from camping too close to my goal for too long time. Because when you are constantly under pressure, they'll eventually manage to break you down, no matter how much defensive you are.

In-possession instructions... when it comes to the fluid counter style - and bearing the mentality (now Balanced) in mind, I would probably start with the following:

- shorter passing, (slightly) higher tempo, run at defence, be more expressive (and only on occasion may I consider the Play out of defence as an extra option)

No focusing of play in the middle, no narrow width and similar overkill stuff. Do not limit your players' options more than it's necessary. 

In transition - only counter (logically) and distribute quickly. Neither counter-press nor regroup (at least for now).

out of possession - standard DL and lower LOE (as explained above) + get stuck in as an option (but may not be always necessary)

[edhdurham]

Great, thanks for the tips I will have a go tonight.

[Experienced Defender]

40 minutes ago, edhdurham said:

Great, thanks for the tips I will have a go tonight.

First try it out to see if it works, do not thank me in advance 

Because I haven't tested the tactic myself, just applied my own tactical logic. Plus, besides a good tactic, you need suitable players as well.

[Dotsworthy]

Hey dude, can I gatecrash your topic? I'm also doing a fluid counter with Newcastle. My defensive is rock solid thanks to your thread on defending (2nd best in the league!) and on the hunt for Europe and I'm but I'm having trouble when playing teams at home where I am clear favourites.

 

Only PIs are on my WMs. I originally used wingers but wanted them to be more narrow so made them WMs with all the PIs of wingers but sit narrower. 

[edhdurham]

17 hours ago, Dotsworthy said:

Hey dude, can I gatecrash your topic? I'm also doing a fluid counter with Newcastle. My defensive is rock solid thanks to your thread on defending (2nd best in the league!) and on the hunt for Europe and I'm but I'm having trouble when playing teams at home where I am clear favourites.

 

Only PIs are on my WMs. I originally used wingers but wanted them to be more narrow so made them WMs with all the PIs of wingers but sit narrower. 

I was using a 4-4-1-1 at first as well, but I had a similar issue, can I ask what you tweak game to game, do you ever counter press or regroup and do you ever change the passing to direct?

[Dotsworthy]

14 minutes ago, edhdurham said:

I was using a 4-4-1-1 at first as well, but I had a similar issue, can I ask what you tweak game to game, do you ever counter press or regroup and do you ever change the passing to direct?

So counter press was a recent addition and I've kept it in as it seems to be really working so far. I've never tried regrouping, mostly because I occasionally like to win the ball higher up the field in transition and start a counter attack as we have the pace. Against bigger teams I will occasionally tell my GK to distribute to centrebacks in order to retain possession and encourage Ajer to try a cheeky ball over the top for my WMs or Joelinton to run onto.

Against smaller teams I have tried increasing the width  and focusing play through the middle to try and create holes for Olmo and Longstaff to run into. Olmo has started to shine since I moved him to SS from a AM(a)

I also sometimes change to a 4-4-2 with Gayle at AF as he seems to score for fun. Carroll is also really useful especially when teams are sitting deep.

[edhdurham]

1 hour ago, Dotsworthy said:

So counter press was a recent addition and I've kept it in as it seems to be really working so far. I've never tried regrouping, mostly because I occasionally like to win the ball higher up the field in transition and start a counter attack as we have the pace. Against bigger teams I will occasionally tell my GK to distribute to centrebacks in order to retain possession and encourage Ajer to try a cheeky ball over the top for my WMs or Joelinton to run onto.

Against smaller teams I have tried increasing the width  and focusing play through the middle to try and create holes for Olmo and Longstaff to run into. Olmo has started to shine since I moved him to SS from a AM(a)

I also sometimes change to a 4-4-2 with Gayle at AF as he seems to score for fun. Carroll is also really useful especially when teams are sitting deep.

Ah see I had a F9 with an AM-A and the AM just didnt do anything , so maybe if I revert back to my 4-4-1-1 and use more width when I am the stronger team and change the AM-A to a SS...  I might give that a go.  My tactic was:

SK-D

FB-S   BPD-D  CD-D  FB-S

WM-A  RPM-S  CM-D  WM-A

AM-A

F9-S

I had some great results against stronger teams, but it was inconsistent maaybe down to the width and AM role, I might try the F9 as a PF-S and they can hold the ball up for the SS.

[Experienced Defender]

On 11/12/2019 at 19:48, Dotsworthy said:

 

On 11/12/2019 at 19:48, Dotsworthy said:

I'm also doing a fluid counter with Newcastle. My defensive is rock solid thanks to your thread on defending (2nd best in the league!) and on the hunt for Europe and I'm but I'm having trouble when playing teams at home where I am clear favourites

Well, it's quite logical that a counter-attack(ish) tactic won't work when you are the clear favorite as it does when you are the underdog. Because when you are the favorite, the opponent will look to play more defensively (cautiously) and thus deny you space for potential counter-attacks (especially if you are hugely overachieving). Therefore, you need to find a way to break them down through the so-called "positional" play (as opposed to your "regular" counter-attacking style).

[edhdurham]

On 12/12/2019 at 22:42, Experienced Defender said:

Well, it's quite logical that a counter-attack(ish) tactic won't work when you are the clear favorite as it does when you are the underdog. Because when you are the favorite, the opponent will look to play more defensively (cautiously) and thus deny you space for potential counter-attacks (especially if you are hugely overachieving). Therefore, you need to find a way to break them down through the so-called "positional" play (as opposed to your "regular" counter-attacking style).

I have a query with the fluid counter.  I have played 4-4-1-1 narrow counter fluid, changed to the above 5-3-2 fluid counter and the 5-3-2 with some of the above tweaks have worked well, 4th off top and into the quarter finals of the league cup...  but, everytime I face 4-2-3-1 with AMC, AMR and AML's I get battered, its the same with both tactics everytime I play against this whether I am the favourite or not I struggle, I sometimes win when I am the much better team, but other than that its a nightmare.

So I have tried asking my WBs to man mark the AMR and AML, I have changed to passing down the wings and through the middle, changed pressing intensity, change line of engagement and defensive line, more direct passing the lot, makes no difference...  any tips other than having a tactic which is more attacking or even a Catenaccio and just accept that against this tactic I need to try and get someone out of the game!!!