Developing a 5-4-1/3-6-1 Box

[Sweez]

Very nice thread ! Altough i'm more of a Bielsa-addept then Rodgers i follow this kind of threads with great interest . I 've allways been a 442 adept ( Anderlecht supporter , historically they tend to play 442 , this season with Besnik Hasi in CL they did not bad at all with a compact 442 so it still works ) but since a couple of seasons i think we will see more 343 type of formations in the years to come . Here in Belgium we have Hein Vanhaezebrouck (former d1 player ) who does great since 4-5 seasons ( at Kortrijk ,Genk and now Ghent) with his 343. In the begin of his coaching carreer i never tought he had any piece of brain to be so good tactical (lets say you can't await miracles from a butcher , from a doctor like Bielsa you can ). But Hein was really ahead of his time. Teams didnt adapt or couldnt adapt vs his team and now he has built a nice reputation in the country with his 343 style . If Bob Peeters can manage Charlton , i think Hein could be given a try at West Brom or teams like that . Didnt want to praise that man or so but wanted to say i think this kind of formations are the future of football . So lets start working on this !

[Tactational]

I've just finished my 1st season as Liverpool after doing something similar to this. I tried to create an adapted 3-4-3/3-6-1 similar to the one we have been using recently, focusing on the performance against Arsenal and how we played then.

What I produced was a ridiculously attacking tactic, we both scored and conceded loads. I only used it as a home tactic because it we were too vulnerable to counters away but over the entire season my home record was 19-3-3, scoring 85 and conceding 36.

I'm not great with tactics and feel I've stumbled onto this more with luck rather than skill so I'd really appreciate it if people could pick at it's faults and show me where to improve. I'd really love to get a version of it that I can use away from home.

[Sweez]

@ Tactational :

for away games i'd opt for:

2 wbs instead of wms

3 dcd instead of bpd

this is my new baby , a mix of Marcelo Bielsa & Raymond Goethals but for 2015

needs to be tested now ...

[alinp]

I've just finished my 1st season as Liverpool after doing something similar to this. I tried to create an adapted 3-4-3/3-6-1 similar to the one we have been using recently, focusing on the performance against Arsenal and how we played then.

What I produced was a ridiculously attacking tactic, we both scored and conceded loads. I only used it as a home tactic because it we were too vulnerable to counters away but over the entire season my home record was 19-3-3, scoring 85 and conceding 36.

I'm not great with tactics and feel I've stumbled onto this more with luck rather than skill so I'd really appreciate it if people could pick at it's faults and show me where to improve. I'd really love to get a version of it that I can use away from home.

I found that with the AMs on Attack duty, they didn't drop back and help out defensively. Making them Support duty solved this. I'm about half way through my 2nd bash at this and currently top of the league with a very good defensive record. Will post some more detail later.

[alinp]

So.. currently running 2 slightly different formations -

both Fluid, one Attacking, one Control and both with these PI's

I wanted a fairly compact team that moved up and down the pitch as a unit and I found this was best achieved by accentuating the already high line and associated pressing. I have Shorter Passing to enable greater ball retention + it just makes plain sense when you have so many central players, however I didn't want player unnecessarily dwelling on the ball, so again found accentuating the already high tempo helped here. I don't have tall strikers so don't want whatever crosses that come in floated high, so found that low crosses supports this, plus with the added TI to play them early keeps with the higher tempo consistency and with the likes of Sterling/Sturridge up front I wanted the ball delivered quickly before oppo defenders can get set. Final setting is to Exploit the Middle which again just makes sense given this is where my strength is and where I'm most likely to outnumber the opposition.

In addition, I have a wee scattering of PI's

The DM(S) has Hold Position as a) I found him pushing a little too high for my liking and b) with an RPM next to him, I need to be sure he remains as central as possible.

The AM(S) has Get Further Forward - I find this help him get up and support the front man once the ball has been won

The AP(S) has Roam from Position - I want him to be the main focus of the build up play and he needs to freedom to be able to move around as necessary. The role has Hold Position as a default, so this does something to counter-act this + GFF is unavailable for the role, so I'm assuming allowing him to roam more will help in getting him up the pitch supporting the attack.

The SS also has Roam from Position, which added to the default settings for this role which include GFF and Move into Channels ensures plenty of movement

The CF(S) has Move into Channels, which helps him act a bit more like a CF(A), but from a deeper position.

In game, if necessary, I'll switch between formations and mentality as I see fit

And the result of all this...

[Sweez]

very nice post alinp . sexy formations if you ask me

* i'd like to know your central defenders PI's

* isnt your left side exposed too much as you have a roamin playmaker + a winger

* surprisingly u have no player on attack duty in your attacking formation

* i'd suggest gk distributing the ball to dc's .

* did you ever try playing with engache ? i'm trying it but have not a lot of ideas for him , just that i think he's the best option to link my 2 attacking & defensive players. but thats for my formation i guess .

[alinp]

very nice post alinp . sexy formations if you ask me

* i'd like to know your central defenders PI's

* isnt your left side exposed too much as you have a roamin playmaker + a winger

* surprisingly u have no player on attack duty in your attacking formation

* i'd suggest gk distributing the ball to dc's .

* did you ever try playing with engache ? i'm trying it but have not a lot of ideas for him , just that i think he's the best option to link my 2 attacking & defensive players. but thats for my formation i guess .

Thank you..

- CD's have no PI's

- not noticed such. Normally play Moreno there, but currently injured. The W(S) does track back as I'm playing a high line, the CD's become engaged pretty quickly whilst the midfield change backwards to support. I've retrained all full backs to play as wide mids.

- yep - I find it helps the team act as a unit and the striker doesn't get detached. In addition I'm concentrating on using roles that make best use of "quickness" + training PPM's to round the keeper, which has paid of a couple of times recently. I offloaded Ricky & Mario in the January window & retrained Sterling, Studge & Fabio to play each other positions, so I feel I have enough cover for the role. Used the money gained to buy Balanta and have retrained Can as an extra defender

- not finding a need for this and this can actually invite pressure on your d-line if it becomes the default position. Leaving to the keeper to decide

- don't think an Enganche fits the movement I'm looking for

[Sweez]

* You dont use OI i guess ?

* what movement is good for the enganche ? i so badly want très puntas + 1 engache to work

* you think it could work for me with my enganche ?

-->

i gave him following PI's : *shoot less often ( to retain posession )

* tackle harder ( to be strong as he needs to link a lot )

* get further fwd ( so that he can help distract to oppenent centrebacks together with my poacher

* pass it shorter ( again to retain posession )

* also not sure about the poacher role , but it's the first time i use this role so i give it some time to see how it works .

* question about passing shorter : when you select it as TI + PI for almost everbody , is there a difference between this and only selecting it as TI ? and how ?

[alinp]

* You dont use OI i guess ?

* what movement is good for the enganche ? i so badly want très puntas + 1 engache to work

* you think it could work for me with my enganche ?

-->

i gave him following PI's : *shoot less often ( to retain posession )

* tackle harder ( to be strong as he needs to link a lot )

* get further fwd ( so that he can help distract to oppenent centrebacks together with my poacher

* pass it shorter ( again to retain posession )

* also not sure about the poacher role , but it's the first time i use this role so i give it some time to see how it works .

* question about passing shorter : when you select it as TI + PI for almost everbody , is there a difference between this and only selecting it as TI ? and how ?

a) your formation doesn't appear to be a box midfield, so it's not really the same idea

b) the Enganche is not a mobile role - it's more of an advanced pivot. If you want to experiment with it in your system, then that's up to you to see what works best. I won't be using one on mine.

And no, I don't use OI's

[alinp]

I've noticed the RP & AP occasionally get in each others way, so I've created a version with the RP & DM switched - apart from anything else, it gives me something to put in the 3rd slot

[Sweez]

may i ask why you chose for dc cover in the middle ?

also why don't you use 2x dc stopper for dcl dcr as you play with wide mids and no wbs ?

i'd like to hear your opinion on this .

[alinp]

may i ask why you chose for dc cover in the middle ?

also why don't you use 2x dc stopper for dcl dcr as you play with wide mids and no wbs ?

i'd like to hear your opinion on this .

Ideally, the central CD is the one that sweeps up behind the other 2, hence the Cover duty should do this as it allows the player to sit a little deeper. I don't need Stoppers as I have a high line and Closing Down accentuated - making them stoppers would IMO be reckless. Defend duty is fine. The reason for the BPD on the RHS is to have someone to bring the ball out and if you noticed, BR played Johnson there initially (v MU) and more recently has played Can there, hence this was clearly in his thoughts too (I'm sure I've mentioned this before!)

TBH, defence isn't really a probem atm @ 0.65 per game. What I would like to try and do though is increase the goals at the other end. Currently average 2, but would like to push this up to 2.5 if possible.

[Sweez]

I have 3 cd d with the outer ones having PI closing down more , mark tighter & pass shorter

while the central one passes short but closes down less .

but i dont use close down more as TI but use it for almost everyone as PI ( different description intrigues me ).

its another approach but i think it achieves the same as your system . correct me if i'm wrong

[alinp]

I have 3 cd d with the outer ones having PI closing down more , mark tighter & pass shorter

while the central one passes short but closes down less .

but i dont use close down more as TI but use it for almost everyone as PI ( different description intrigues me ).

its another approach but i think it achieves the same as your system . correct me if i'm wrong

That may have been the approach for FM14, but as I understand it, there's been a change in FM15 in that PI's no longer over-ride TI's, but instead modify them, so no I don't think it'll produce the same outcome.

[alinp]

As is my want (and probably downfall), I kept tinkering with the tactic over the season, whilst trying to stay try to the initial idea, i.e. a box midfield with Liverpool playing in a similar style to what I believe Rodgers is currently trying to do.

Finished with 3 tactic variants -

all with same TI's as shown earlier, all Fluid, 1 Attack, 1 Control, 1 Counter

Changing the FC to CF(A) meant a) not having to use a PI and b) he did become more of a focal point for the attack. The 2 AMs ended up both with PI's of Roam from Position and Run Wide with Ball + the AM(S) has Get Further Forward, otherwise PI's as stated earlier.

Final league table...

In other comps, made semi of Champions League (where thoroughly humiliated by Barca), semi of Capital One Cup (losing out to Chelsea) & rather embarrassingly, although not unrealistic, dumped out of the FA Cup in the 4th Round having been on the wrong end of a 5 goal thriller at Selhurst Park.

[Sweez]

Nice set of tactics if you ask me

i had 2 questions : Tight marking u dont use as PI nor TI right ?

Closing Down more as TI only , no CD as PI , right ?

i had very nice posession (+62 % ) during preseason but now in supercup vs Bayern ( i'm RB Leipzig btw ) i got smashed away , lost 3-6 . but i didnt have CD more as TI. had it on almost all my players as PI . need to review this part.

peace

[alinp]

Nice set of tactics if you ask me

i had 2 questions : Tight marking u dont use as PI nor TI right ?

Closing Down more as TI only , no CD as PI , right ?

i had very nice posession (+62 % ) during preseason but now in supercup vs Bayern ( i'm RB Leipzig btw ) i got smashed away , lost 3-6 . but i didnt have CD more as TI. had it on almost all my players as PI . need to review this part.

peace

Hi Sweez

Correct - no Tight Marking, Closing Down as a TI, none of the CD's have any PI's

I normally get good possession stats and lost 8-1 to Barca in the away leg of my CL semi (having beaten them 1-0 at home), so I'm not saying it's perfect, but just an idea that can (and I guess does) work.

[TheJanitor]

So, after a fairly successful time with my own formation, I've decided to start again and go for the recent 3-4-3-0 that Liverpool are currently displaying. What I came up with goes like this:

(Line-up against Everton)

The idea is that play would build up through our left side of the pitch with Coutinho being the key man here- he can look for the through-ball behind the opposition's defense for Sterling to run for, he can play it to the left to find Moreno on one of trademark surging runs and combine with the AMCR (typically Lallana). This should hopefully drag the opponents to that side, and create space were our right winger should operate in. During the match against Everton, Manquillo found a lot of space at numerous occasions, with only his poor offensive skills letting him down.

The match ended in a decisive manner. A 3-0 win. Great way to open the season. The idea behind playing Allen in AMCR was partially due that due to Lallana's injury, and partially because I wanted to press Everton as high as possible, And while Allen was in no way brilliant, he was solid in that manner.

The Roles:

SK-S: I'm starting with Mignolet here, but I'm looking for a keeper who is more comfortable with the ball on his feet and is a better distributor of the ball.

LCB-X: Sakho role. I actually never really tried playing with a stopper, decided to give it go. Pretty much a standard "Side stopper in a back three" role, needs to be good on his left and decent enough with the ball to build up play. Not really looking for someone like Agger though, his needs to be assertive with his defending.

CB-C: Again fairly standard, not much to say here.

BPD-X: At first I though about playing a regular center back, but then I read the comment from alinp, mentioning how Johnson performed in this role, and so I've stuck to this. Emre Can should be a perfect fit if he can get his mentals higher.

DM-D: Just someone who gets the ball, pass it shortly and keeps his position. Not looking for anything more fancy. More Lucas than King Stevie.

DM-S: At first, Henderson is a natural Box-to-Box, but after seeing him play in the last few matches, it makes more sense to start him as DM and provide good screening for my back three. Added the instruction Get Further Forward, and it seems to work well, he made some excellent runs forward against Everton.

CWB-A: Yet another role that evolved differently than how I first visioned this formation. At first, I wanted to play Moreno at ML, but, I couldn't find a role that truly represented the way he plays. A Complete Wing Back at the WB strata should be well suited for him.

W-S: Unsure about the mentality, might change it to attack if I feel he it not contributing enough. I mentioned how I want him to take advantage of the space he gets when our play is funneled to the left, but I also need to consider the fact that he is the sole player on his flank, thus he will have some defensive responsibility.

AP-S: To keep our play channeled through him, Coutinho is set to a play-maker role. Also having him learning the Come Deep to Get Ball ppm so he would get most of the ball.

AM-S: The second attacking midfielder, Lallana seems a bit more willing to move into advanced positions than Coutinho. He is almost a hybrid of Coutinho and Sterling. He plays on support so he will defend more, but will Lallana's Gets Into Opposition Area ppm and Get Further Forward instruction, he should be offensive enough.

SS-A: This is Sterling. I pretty much thinks this role is made for him. He is the tip of my midfield, making excellent runs from deep. I added the Roam From Position instruction, because I want him to work the channels and not stay central. He is not the sort of physical presence that can allow himself to play that way, he should drift into spaces, as the best way to supply this sort of player is with killer-passes.

This is it really. I have a question to anyone who is familiar with PPMs though. I'm currently teaching Alberto Moreno to hug the touchline, as I want him to stretch the play, but on the match against Everton he made a great movement inwards the pitch, and Coutinho was able to sent him a slightly over-hit pass. I liked this, and I wonder, will the PPM affect this movements?

[alinp]

Not too dissimilar to my version... on the rhs, I opted for WM(S) as I felt a) this would be better defensively plus I seem to recall mention in some analysis somewhere that Lallana was encouraged to drive into the space ahead with the WM feeding the ball either down the line to him or inside to the advancing CM/DM (Henderson in your tactic).

I agree a BBM is probably the correct role for Hendo, but as it's not available in the DM line, for me a RPM is a closer fit.

BTW, Markovic makes an excellent AM(S)

[TheJanitor]

Not too dissimilar to my version... on the rhs, I opted for WM(S) as I felt a) this would be better defensively plus I seem to recall mention in some analysis somewhere that Lallana was encouraged to drive into the space ahead with the WM feeding the ball either down the line to him or inside to the advancing CM/DM (Henderson in your tactic).

I agree a BBM is probably the correct role for Hendo, but as it's not available in the DM line, for me a RPM is a closer fit.

BTW, Markovic makes an excellent AM(S)

I'll take notice of the note about the right winger. Right now, I'm fairly happy with how my Winger on support is behaving. I think he should attack the flank better, and I really want a more direct option over there, especially when my favorite choice for this position when everybody is fit is Markovic. As for Hendo, I'm actually surprise of how advanced he gets, and how often he ends up around the box. I guess ideally I would have have him as BBM, but I willing to sacrifice that for the extra protection we get in front of the center backs.

[alinp]

Have you tried adding Roam from Position to the DM(S), assuming it's available. This may help him act more like a BBM but from a DM starting position.

With regard to defensive cover, with 3 CD's & a DM(D), I would wonder how much more you need. Ironically, IRL I think Liverpool looked better defensively when Lucas knew he was the main man in that role partnered with the more mobile Henderson rather than the now pretty static Gerrard.

[Sweez]

Have you tried adding Roam from Position to the DM(S), assuming it's available. This may help him act more like a BBM but from a DM starting position.

With regard to defensive cover, with 3 CD's & a DM(D), I would wonder how much more you need. Ironically, IRL I think Liverpool looked better defensively when Lucas knew he was the main man in that role partnered with the more mobile Henderson rather than the now pretty static Gerrard.

Couldn't a Regista achieve this also ? I think giving this player the right ppm's could do great , especially in this setup gets fwd whenever he can , try killer killer balls , ..

[alinp]

Have you tried adding Roam from Position to the DM(S), assuming it's available. This may help him act more like a BBM but from a DM starting position.

With regard to defensive cover, with 3 CD's & a DM(D), I would wonder how much more you need. Ironically, IRL I think Liverpool looked better defensively when Lucas knew he was the main man in that role partnered with the more mobile Henderson rather than the now pretty static Gerrard.

Ah... Adding Roaming to the DM(S) isn't possible, perhaps GFF to encourage vertical movement.

Couldn't a Regista achieve this also ? I think giving this player the right ppm's could do great , especially in this setup gets fwd whenever he can , try killer killer balls , ..

I've always thought of the Regista's movement as being more lateral than vertical, so not sure it works personally.

[TheJanitor]

To my knowledge, a Regista is less incline to veture forward than DM (S). More agressive than a DLP, sure, but that's not saying much. I'll experiment with Henderson on at CM (S) a little bit. Have you tried him behind an AM (S)? I'm worried about over-crowding that area, even if I will change the AM duty to Attack.

Very promising so far. The 4-3 against Palace was mental, the first half ended with us leading 4-0, and their late third goal really had me on the edge of my seat for the rest of the match. Sadly, Coutinho injured himself for 2-3 months. He was really a key part of the team with 3 goals and 3 assists, absolutely amazing, hope Lallana could cover well, and Markovic would be given time at AM.

Alberto Moreno is another one. If you have a striker that scores 5 in 4, it's great, but a wing back? insanity. His ability to find space in the opponents area is phenomenal. Unfortunately, as those kind of wing backs tend to naturally be, he lacks defensively, and it was clearly visible in the Crystal Palace match, were he was up against a dangerous winger like Zaha, who was the man who assisted their first goal and caused us damage. It's important to say that in this match I tried to counter this with playing Moreno as WB (S) through out the most of the match.

Our best display has been against Hull, no doubt, although with a 4-1-4-1 tactic. First of all, the pressing. Never have it been such impeccable for me. Also, the possession. First the first time in any FM match I can recall (been playing since 08) my team finished the first half with 70% of the ball.

A side from that shaky second half against Palace, I never recall to experience such a dominant beginning to a season. My next PL match is my toughest challenge so far, home against Man City. They started the season with a loss and two draws, but their last match was 4-0 to Arsenal at the Emirates, so I can't really take them lightly.

[alinp]

To my knowledge, a Regista is less incline to veture forward than DM (S). More agressive than a DLP, sure, but that's not saying much. I'll experiment with Henderson on at CM (S) a little bit. Have you tried him behind an AM (S)? I'm worried about over-crowding that area, even if I will change the AM duty to Attack.

I have the my right sided DM as RPM + have Runs Wide with Ball, Roam & GFF for the AM(S) - not having any such issues. What's I've found more likely is that even with Hold Position, my other DM gets a but close to the AP(S), especially as the AP doesn't get as far forward as his AM colleague & Coutinho has a PPM of Comes deep to Get Ball, so I've gone with your option of making this a DM(D).

[wereldbol]

i only just bought the game and started my first game as liverpool on football manager 2015. what immediately struck me as a big fan of playing with three at the back was that my preferred defensive set up of stopper-defend-stopper combined with hassle opponents (or close down much more as that is what it's called now i think) is leaking a fair bit of goals. both sakho and skrtel got drawn into silly challenges when either my wingbacks or my regista could still prevent the danger without the help of one of the outer defenders.

what are people's opinions on playing three at the back on this? right now i'm trying a flat back three on defend duties and two wingbacks on support to lessen the gap down the flanks when defending. so far so good but it just feels a bit weird having always sworn by the stopper-defend-stopper combination on recent versions.

also, i have a bit of a dilemma regarding the wingbacks. i'd like to keep possession and not cross the ball so i wanted to instruct my wingbacks to cross the ball less. unfortunately i also wanted to play with complete wingbacks because i felt they offered more of a goal threat than regular wingbacks on football manager 2014. and when i do so, i can not tell my complete wingbacks to cross less because it is greyed out. so a complete wingback has a natural inclination to cross the ball.

is there any other way to solve this other than using wingbacks on supporting duties? i'm not too displeased with their play so far. they offer enough going forward and are remarkably solid when defending but i'd like to see more of a goal threat from them.

[wereldbol]

i saw alinp use defend-cover-defend. i hadn't thought of that and it seems logical. what is the reasoning behind this combination? do you feel the outer centre backs charge into a tackle a bit less?

[alinp]

i saw alinp use defend-cover-defend. i hadn't thought of that and it seems logical. what is the reasoning behind this combination? do you feel the outer centre backs charge into a tackle a bit less?

Indeed, and with having no WB's, but wide mids instead, I didn't want them charging out of position too much.

[TheJanitor]

I personally would drop the close down much more TI for close down more. I find that even with 4 defenders, the more extreme intruction tend to cause leaks. Close down more with combination of Attacking mentality and maybe push higher up (again- NOT push ever higher up) should do enough. It certainally did the job for me, and I used Stopper-Cover-Stopper.

[alinp]

I personally would drop the close down much more TI for close down more. I find that even with 4 defenders, the more extreme intruction tend to cause leaks. Close down more with combination of Attacking mentality and maybe push higher up (again- NOT push ever higher up) should do enough. It certainally did the job for me, and I used Stopper-Cover-Stopper.

I tried it both ways and found the Closing Down TI helped for me, but I take your point that it can lead to CD's being drawn out of position, but then I don't have any in Stopper roles.

[js150]

I've been using a 3-2-2-1-2 formation consisting of 2 WB's 2 CM's 1 AM and 2 ST's since the start of FM15 with pretty good success. I'm always looking at ways to develop it however and have been looking at the box midfield. I think I'd rather play a front 3 of 2 AM's and 1 ST rather than 1 AM and 2 ST's which is why the box appeals so this topic is a pretty interesting read.

I think I'm going to try develop an Asymmetrical formation as the downside of the box for me is having a lot of players in the same part of the pitch with gaps elsewhere. Having 2 x CM's leaves too big a gap for me in the DM strata and vice versa.

I'm going to try setting up something like this:

------------------F9(S)-----------------

------------SS(A)----APM(S)-----------

------------CM(S)---------------WM(A)

WB(S)----------------DM(D)----------

-------CB©---BPD(S)---CB©-------

-----------------GK(D)------------------

The thinking would be to get the DM to drop in and cover for the RM when he bombs on, how to get this to work within FM however could be tricky.

Due to the team I'm currently playing with it maybe a bit soon to use the middle CB as a Ball Playing CB but I do intend to in the future.