[Do you want the full release to be harder than the beta?]

14 minutes ago, craiigman said:

I would prefer it to be on the easy side so it’s more open to new players. Make the learning curve too difficult and you’ll stop getting new players.

I agree with the sentiment that you shouldn’t need to add your own challenges to make the game more difficult. However if the game was realistic no one would play it anymore. There’s a reason why clubs like “generic league one/two club” won’t win the champions league in 5 years. But it being possible and maybe a “bit easy” is that appeals to people playing FM, and it’s what would keep a new player playing.

They can do both I think, with difficulty levels.

[Do you want the full release to be harder than the beta?]

29 minutes ago, SebastianRO said:

It happened a few times, but normally I don't. In the first season I try to get the squad right and in the second season I really go for it, but realistically I only win it in my 3rd season. Yes, it can be different each time, as AI decisions are something I cannot control and sometimes they do make better decisions which makes it very hard for me to win the league or it can make it very easy. As an example, I am playing AC Milan right now in the beta and I am now finishing my 3rd season. Won the league in my 3rd season by 2 points against Juventus. Inter was 3rd, 2 points behind me. I also got as far as the quarter finals of UCL. For me, this is exactly what I would expect from the game.

To quote you "if you rally try" ... My approach towards each save is the same and that includes sacrificing some results if I have to for the greater good like selling a top earner and promoting a youngster in which I believe, or saacrificing the league for the european competition, etc. I NEVER go just for the result in front of me. That would be my 1st choice if I would play journeyman (which I haven't done in 7 years, since FM14). My approach is always long term. I am not trying to convincee you @dannysheardthat the game doesn't need any tweaking with regards to the difficulty level. I am just saying that for me it's perfectly fine and I feel strongly about this. I guess it depends on how you play it.

Thanks for the answer, and I'm glad that this discussion topic has been pretty friendly this year 😃

From what you're saying, even when you're really trying, you're still doing things that aren't really going all out to win every match.

If you did really try to win, you probably would in the first season, and that's too easy for me.

It might be that lots of players are really happy with the difficulty, but this poll shows lots of us find it way too easy.

Difficulty levels would give something for everyone.

[Do you want the full release to be harder than the beta?]

6 minutes ago, SebastianRO said:

You are asking the wrong question @dannysheard, but to answer it, yes I do. The right question is " When do you start winning silverware ?" or "How quick do you become the most dominant team in the league?". I am going to repeat myself and say it again: this game is not just about the results in one season. I find this game to be like a war on multiple fronts and overall I think it's well balanced.

Do you win the league in the first season if you really try?

[Do you want the full release to be harder than the beta?]

7 minutes ago, Broken_Record said:

With team like AC Milan (or any other) you should not be forced to "sabotage" your own gameplay or invent challenges to yourself. The game should be difficult enough to provide a good challenge, no matter what team you pick. This is a simple thing that the game developers will also hopefully see at some point. 

This. When did we reach the point where, in a football management simulation, the advice for any half-decent player is that you need to sabotage your own game if you want a realistic save?

Does the game need a disclaimer after the features list? Please be aware that using these new features, or any of the old ones, will cause you to massively overachieve and the game won't be challenging.

[Do you want the full release to be harder than the beta?]

3 minutes ago, SebastianRO said:

It depends on the team I start with. I have a few teams that I play with every year because these are my fav clubs:

AC Milan - my favourite team - If I just play (like most people play the game), then yes ... I do win competitions, cups, etc. But most of the times I play with AC Milan I don't play like that. I challenge myself with either: having a squad with 100% italian players, or recreating some revolutionary tactic from the past (like Catenaccio, or total football or smth), etc. This is normally the way I play with AC Milan. Even when I do win cups and competions every season, I still don't think the game needs to be harder because this game is played on multiple fronts: finance, squad building, matches (results), staff. Football Manager simply isn't just about results.

Dynamo Dresden - a club I like and a city I love - When I play with them, the game isn't easy by any standard, so no, I don't win many things with them for the first few seasons. Given the fact that they now start in 3.Liga it would take me about 4 years at least before I can consider challenging for the German Cup.

I am not a lower league type of player as I never found much enjoyment there, but I do play with teams that are considered "weak", like Dresden or Monza, etc and I stand by what I said: the game doesn't need to be any easier or any harder. I personally never thought "This game is too easy". It is natural and normal to have an easier time when playing a big club. You can't just choose playing AC Milan, but at the same time expect to be challenged by the likes of Pescara and Monza. You will simply crush those teams 95% of the time. The challenge for this type of team would be when playing in UCL and balancing the squad. Good luck.

So just to confirm, when you play with Milan, who are probably the 5th or 6th best club in the league, and play normally, you did win lots of stuff?

[Do you want the full release to be harder than the beta?]

5 minutes ago, herne79 said:

How exactly would people like it to be harder?  What specific aspects?  It's no good saying just make the ME harder or the AI smarter.  That doesn't actually say anything.  What specific aspects do you find too easy?  So for example:

1) Match Engine.  Lets assume for a moment that SI implement a way that the ME can determine which team is human controlled and which is AI controlled (it can't at present).  This is important if you want the ME to have a difficulty setting.  So, how to give the ME a difficulty setting?  Reduce the human controlled player's Consistency?  Make defenders less likely to tackle?  Have varying degrees of a striker's ability to Finish?  Nerf midfielder's passing ability?  And, above all of this, ensure the ME is kept as realistic and true to actual football as possible, because if you start to see (for example) strikers missing 1v1s or passing constantly going astray, imagine the outcry.

So how specifically to give the ME varying degrees of difficulty (assuming it can be changed to tell the difference between human and AI controlled teams) but keep it true to real football?

2) Tactics.  Lots of people (and I appreciate there are exceptions) talk in terms of using so-called exploit tactics, or perhaps the preset gegenpress tactic.  Well on the one hand, that's on you not the game.  That's your choice, not the game's problem, so don't complain if you find the game too easy from that aspect.  However, on the other hand, perhaps there is scope to limit what tactical strategies you are able to use when setting up your own tactical system within varying difficulty settings.  Maybe limit which Mentalities you are able to set?  Reduce the number of player roles and duties available?  Limit the amount of TIs available to be used.  But then that may also limit the style of play you are able to give your team, so would that be an acceptable trade off?

3) Players.  Perhaps it might be possible to limit attributes for players within human controlled teams?  Maybe limit them to a maximum of say 15 in any given category?  But then what if you sell a player to an AI team?  Those attributes would need to somehow artificially increase.  And what about when you play with <insert elite player name here> and he doesn't bear any resemblance to the actual player?  Is that acceptable?

4) Player development.  Perhaps we could have varying degrees of difficulty in slowing down and/or limiting player development.  Only allow a certain level of CA to be reached.  Allow reduced amounts of CA growth in any given time frame.  Of course this may only have a significant impact if you happen to be a manager who puts great emphasis on in house development and could easily be overcome with transfers....

5) Transfers.  Again, we can see talk of how some people "exploit" the transfer system.  And again, if you do that, that's on you.  That's your problem, not the game's, because you are making the choice to game the system in this manner and use it in unintended ways.  But that to one side, how to give the transfer system difficulty levels?  Make players more expensive for human controlled teams?  Again this would need a system in place to determine who the human controlled team is.  Limit the amount of scouting possible?  Permanently hide certain attributes from scout reports?  Reduce your transfer budget?  Make it so players become more reluctant to join your team?  Stop loans to low level clubs?

And again, how would any of this stay within the bounds of realism?  Or is it just a case of realism be damned and have SI turn things into a more arcade style game?

6) AI.  This is a tough one as unless we are going to give every user a PC the equivalent of Deep Thought, the AI is never going to be as capable as us human managers can be.  Just think about that for a moment - essentially, no matter what, we will always have an advantage over the AI.  The AI can of course be improved, and indeed is with every iteration of FM released, but we get into the realms of hardware limitations.  Who are we to say "yup, give us an AI who can create better tactics, make better transfers and develop their players expertly, but only if we have a top end system and tough luck to all the poor schmucks who don't, let them eat cake".  There have been plenty of threads which have essentially stated just that.  How egalitarian.

(And btw if the AI was even close to being as capable as a human manager nobody would ever win anything lol).

 

Anyway, that's just a few very basic thoughts.  Of course over all of this subject is SI's desire (and indeed their customer's desire) to produce and play a realistic simulation of football and football management, and real life football doesn't have a difficulty setting.  So it's all well and good saying give us a difficulty setting / make the game harder, but how specifically?

This is a 3-second thought on this, but would immediately make the game a whole load more enjoyable for the better players... In games just against me, so it doesn't throw the rest of the game out, the AI teams gets, for example:

 +5 or +10 on fitness at the start of the match

 Boost to morale

Boost of +1 or +2 on all their attributes

[Do you want the full release to be harder than the beta?]

3 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

What 'stats' would you tweak out of interest?

In games just against me, so it doesn't throw the rest of the game out, the AI teams gets, for example:

 +5 or +10 on fitness at the start of the match

 Boost to morale

Boost of +1 or +2 on all their attributes

 

That would be really easy to do in the ME, I presume, and it wouldn't affect casual players as they wouldn't play that mode, and it wouldn't unbalance the game as it's just against the human player that it happens.

[Do you want the full release to be harder than the beta?]

3 minutes ago, SebastianRO said:

No difficulty level needed. The game is fine.

Out of interest, do you win lots of trophies/promotions?

[Do you want the full release to be harder than the beta?]

2 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

You've been killed by your own sword here though, you clearly know what you're doing, and you're managing a top club. That's as close to 'easy level' as you can get in a game. Sucks for you, I guess, but that's where we are. SI can't risk alienating casual players (probably the majority who play) who aren't as good as you by making the game impossible for them. For this type of simulation, difficulty levels is totally unworkable at the moment. 

I don't think it use to be quite this easy, though. I remember having some difficult seasons in previous versions (maybe 5+ years ago).

It's probably correct that as they've added more functionality, the human player uses it well and the AI doesn't, so each year the game gets easier.

I think a Pro mode would make sense, just tweaking the AI stats a little here and there but I know the casual players aren't having it. 

[Do you want the full release to be harder than the beta?]

1 minute ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Well, I've just been sacked in my first job, so I would answer this question is a resounding 'NO' 

I do like to keep things as real as possible however, and I hardly ever manage a top club, so the game is always challenging for me, and that's the way I like it. Going a top flight club (especially in England with the absurd finances) is never going to be a challenge until the AI improves considerably. So people who do manage these clubs and who are decent at the game may have to find ways to make the save harder for themselves. 

I know it's a different type of game, but I watch a few streamers play the Dark Souls series of games. Now already, these games are hard enough, but for these guys to do a straight playthrough would be too easy and boring, so they'll set up various challenges (no hit runs etc), and mods to make their game more enjoyable. From Software would be horrified if people asked them to include difficulty levels. 

If you're at the stage where the game's too easy for you, then pick the hundreds of different ways there is where you can test yourself more. 

 

I get what your saying and I do put loads of artificial things into the game to make it more realistic, but beyond a certain point (only buy players with less than two vowels in their middle name) it loses the immersion that we all want from the game.

It surely can't be that we're expecting all the millions of fans of Liverpool, City, Utd, Spurs, Chelsea, Arsenal, Juve, Milan, Inter etc., to not play as their favourite team. That can't be the best answer here, can it?

[Do you want the full release to be harder than the beta?]

7 minutes ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

Give an example

I think we're fighting a losing battle here, mate

This whole debate is like me saying to Usain Bolt that he can't run under 10s because I can't.

The people on here get so offended if you even suggest some of us find the game painfully easy. They start saying downloaded tactics, downloaded shortlists (whatever that is). So frustrating because the game could be so much better.

[Do you want the full release to be harder than the beta?]

3 minutes ago, forameuss said:

It's also a misconception that everyone who uses exploits knows they're doing it.

If there are some known overpowered tactics, make the AI managers use them. That would make the game more difficult straight away. Make Pep really aggressive in his tactics if that exploits the match engine.

[Do you want the full release to be harder than the beta?]

2 minutes ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

i do none of that and still find it too easy. It's a misconception on people who says the game is easy are the people who find exploits...

Agreed. I just want to play a 20-year save with Liverpool where:

 - we have a decent chance of winning the league in the first few seasons, but by no means guaranteed

 - City and Utd outspend me over time and end up with better squads

 - my players lose hunger if they win trophies every season, so I have to make changes every few years to keep it fresh (like Fergie did)

 - bigger teams than me (Real, Barca) or richer teams (PSG) try to buy my players and my players want to go because they'll get a lot more money

 - the opposition work out my tactics and counter them

 - my players demand ever-increasing wages if we keep winning stuff

[Do you want the full release to be harder than the beta?]

26 minutes ago, SortitoutsiVP said:

The people who say its too easy, how do you play the game? Do you use tactics you know are OP (see someone mention 3 strikers earlier) If you're a bigger side do you sign known wonderkids or players that you know for certain are going to perform really well (Haaland for example).

Whatever it is you do to find it easy certainly doesn't involve just loading a game up and picking a set tactic from the list then winning every game because if that was all it took then yes, I'd agree the game is too easy but there is no way this is what you're doing.

When I play (usually Arsenal), I always try to make my own tactic but keeping it within how I like football to be played not simply using one that I know will guarantee results with known exploits, I never look at wonderkid lists or any player lists in fact as that's what my scouts are for and I also try to give my youth players a chance (not the usual ones but players who have not yet had many if any first team apps IRL).

I could go on but the game 100% doesn't have to be too easy and If somehow you find it is then change the way you play to make it more interesting for yourselves.

I play a fairly simple 4-3-3 (4-1-2-2 wide-1 in shape), plenty of pressing as in real life, never more aggressive than Positive really, sensible set of roles (as in WB-S, rather than than WB-A), nothing that dramatic really. Maybe a bit more cautious away at first.

I never buy anyone unless my scout has found them first, and even then I tend to try to play existing young players in the squad rather than buy big names.

I think if you play fairly aggressive (but not crazy) and keep your players happy, you'll win most games.

[Do you want the full release to be harder than the beta?]

1 minute ago, IrrelevantLion said:

Vast majority won’t even know this forum exists, even fewer will know about it, fewer still will directly engage. 
 

I'm sure the reason why SI haven’t really talked about this is because the data that they have tells them a different story. 

That doesn't mean it's not representative necessarily.

[Do you want the full release to be harder than the beta?]

41 minutes ago, IrrelevantLion said:

I don’t think this sub is a realistic representation of the playerbase.

[citation needed]

[Do you want the full release to be harder than the beta?]

7 minutes ago, IrrelevantLion said:

Nah, humblebrag: an ostensibly modest or self-deprecating statement whose actual purpose is to draw attention to something of which one is proud.

I'm not proud of it. I know it's ridiculously easy. I'm SAYING it's ridiculously easy.

For many people, the game in the last few years has been like level 1 of Candy Crush.

At the moment, it's the equivalent of me playing football against a team of 5-year olds and saying, "I'm too good at football."

If you don't think it's too easy, you don't need difficulty levels. That's fine. I'm quite sad and I've spent thousands of hours playing FM over 20 years so I'm really good at it (like some people are much better than me at other games, or driving or chatting up women) so I do need difficulty levels.

[Do you want the full release to be harder than the beta?]

4 minutes ago, Caning the Days said:

Fair play then. Nice one! My post wasn't addressed specifically to you but to anyone really. 

If you're lucky enough to find that sort of self discipline easy and still finding the game could be more challenging, have you tried starting with a poor national league club and the lowest manager rep and badges? Could be a more tricky start at least?

I did a Bolton save (-12 points at the start of the season, virtually bankrupt), but found it way too easy still and a bit boring as I just love Liverpool. I don't mind winning with Liverpool because they're obviously really good, I just don't want to win a crazy amount of trophies.

[Do you want the full release to be harder than the beta?]

19 minutes ago, trekman said:

I dont think the difficulty needs changing. I honestly have never believed these people who say they've won the league, cups, champions league ever year since taking over. Provide actual proof and I might believe you.

Why would I make it up? I'm a 42-year old dad of three; I'm a bit past coming onto a forum to make things up.

I'm coming onto a forum to ask the developers to make the game harder... why would I do that if I just wanted to win and brag about in on here.

The proof bit is impossible because people could cheat anyway (as you see people showing league tables where they've won 38 out of 38). In my two or three Liverpool saves on FM20,  I must've done about 15 season and won 15 leagues, c. 9 Champions Leagues and about 20 out of the 30 domestic cups. And had by far the youngest team in the league. And about the 5th highest wage bill. And a net-positive transfers of several hundred million pounds on each save.

For lots of us, the game is too easy. And I think for lots that say it isn't too easy, they're getting promoted nearly every season but pretending they've got it hard because they started lower in the pyramid. If anything, that's even easier as you can have success by finishing in the top three and there are hundreds of players to buy to improve your team, making it even easier to exploit the transfer market. And you can loan players that are literally the best player in your team.

[Do you want the full release to be harder than the beta?]

15 minutes ago, Caning the Days said:

I am aware of the implication of this point but be completely honest with yourself. Do you ever cheat? Ever? Not a single re-load when conceding a last min equaliser or if a brand new marquee signing gets injured for 9 months a few days after signing? Not many would blame you. The vast majority would do it, and maybe not even consider "just that one time" to be cheating. Maybe you justify it that it was just a wrong click of the mouse so it doesn't count etc. But it is cheating, and it is in those moments, those rage quitting moments, that the difficulty lies. Having an unhapy star striker, losing them on a free, signing expensive flops in the non league. Losing your job and frustratingly having to rebuild a career again. It's all there if you want it, just don't touch that 'Load' button...

Maybe try an online game with someone. It is the only way of never really being able to cheat and it makes the game a) a lot harder and b) much more fun. It drags it our over real time a bit, but if you can get into a decent routine then I have had the best games I have ever played this way. So much of FM is about form and happiness, so reloads and disagreements can really make a big difference in the long term.

Hi there

I'm the OP but I've hit my daily limit on my proper account (since when was there a daily limit?!?!), so I've gone onto my old account. Not sure why I've got two accounts (maybe I was drunk one night and couldn't remember login details, but that's a different story!).

I'm 42 now and I'd hand on heart say, I don't think I've cheated one single time in the last 15+ years. I used to do it a little, in cup finals etc., when I was younger, but I'm all for immersion these days, so wouldn't want to play it if I cheated. 

[Do we need difficulty levels?]

On 02/09/2020 at 12:20, EazyEee said:

The current FM game is an arcade version of football, and that’s what makes it fun. 
 

Having an extreme mode would just make adjustments to make the game more life like and In turn offer a challenge to the longer term players. Not sure why it’s being turned into some competition, this is a single player game, who cares if some play on an “hard” mode?

 

Also as it would be totally optional I don’t see how it detracts from base FM. As for bugs etc, the majority of games have difficulty levels, FM had a classic mode back in 14 which was a streamlined version of the game.

I think this is the heart of the issue... people have had years of thinking they are amazing, football managers, myself included, and all of a sudden having a difficult mode where they struggle would burst that bubble.

They don't want difficult settings, even though they wouldn't have to select the harder mode, because they like the illusion they're nearly perfect at the game.

I used to play Fifa a bit, and got to the level next to the top one, and was happy to accept that I wasn't at the very best level. This is because a) I hadn't played it as much as some other people, b) I wasn't as naturally good as some other people and c) I used to absolute lose the plot when I conceded a dodgy goal. That was fine. It didn't make me a bad person that I wasn't at the top level. I just wasn't at that level. 

[Do we need difficulty levels?]

On 01/09/2020 at 20:32, Federico said:

People is so eager for difficulty levels that they can't see how not viable (i'd say stupid but I don't want to sound offensive) this can be.

"Yeah we want AI harder to play!"

What does it mean? are you asking for SI to deliberately cheat you by making opponents a bunch of super-heroes with 21 in each one of their attributes? Do you mean you want their goalkeeper saving every stone thrown at him and yours not even capable to collect a candy from the pitch? Do you want a constant, unstoppable loss of money when your opponents are richer than every PL clubs, doubling their income day after day?

And how do you think SI could cope with bugs referring to every single level of difficulty?

At the moment, my point of view, we are extremely far from seeing something barely acceptable to what is real football, and you want every parameter in the code to be changed because you want a challange?

Please, play Vibonese in Italian Serie C, and get the CL trophy in 4 years as you usally do with british clubs. Maybe avoid downloading exploitable tactics, for those who do that. Stop reloading, don't purchase any RTE and make your own tactic and training session, gegenpressen is forbidden. That's what I do.

good luck!

I'd very happily have a more difficult mode, where, for example, all opposition attributes are effectively raised by a number or a % when you play that team.

It's not an ideal solution, but it's what they do in lots of games, such as Civilization where the AI get a combat bonus, amongst other things, which increases as the difficulty level increases.

Again, it's not perfect but it is a generally accepted way to make games harder for saddos like me that have played them a lot over the years. 

[Do we need difficulty levels?]

On 01/09/2020 at 10:56, Analog said:

This exact thread seems to crop up from time to time, and I never quite understand it.  Want the game to be harder?  Make it harder for yourself then?  There's many ways to do that.

So, would you suggest that every game that currently has difficulty levels (which is the vast majority of games), should have those difficulty levels removed, and the player should think of ways themselves to make the game harder?

For example, on Fifa, if you're good, only using one hand to use the controller? If you're very good, not using a controller at all? And for elite players, you can turn the computer on, but not the TV? It might work...

[FM20: Liverpool - Champions of Europe]

6 hours ago, paddypower said:

Eventually gotten the notification. 2 years after expanding and selling out every PL game. I also have £350m in the bank, been running a transfer profit for a while in preparation

 

Popped up on the 2nd of June at the end of the season without asking. I've asked loads before and been told no.

 

A lot of details to be confirmed it seems, but good to see they’ll build it in Liverpool 😂

[FM20: Liverpool - Champions of Europe]

On 13/03/2020 at 18:01, MAECK said:

My eyes!!!!